294 replies to this topic

[Vintage]

Ok, I made this design as quick as possible. It resembles Shortshit's even though I finished it before I refreshed my browser page and saw his.



The picture is to scale and I am holding my RF20 valve in my lap as I type. It will fit where I want it, since I will take out the liquitron guage. The valve I will use is the primary trigger valve, so I will have to press it before every shot. I just don't like the idea of consuming more air than I need to if I use the other valve.
Edit: Unless you can convince me otherwise...

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 27 August 2004 - 03:35 PM.

[ompa]

My primary trigger valve is messed up- as in, it leaks if it's closed. Which is why mine is taped open, and it works. And if it's taped open and it works, it probably means that valve isn't necessary. Vintage, I suggest you use the other valve, as I think that's the one we need. And if me and Tex's experiances aren't coincidences, then your idea won't work as it'll leak whenever you fire it, just like Tex's.

Damnit I feel like a fucking post-whore. PM me with questions so I don't feel so bad. And/or I will just post my answers in THIS reply, as I am what, 8th on the top posters and I've only been here for like 5 months...



\/\/\/\/\/ Short, it's been done before, it's do-able. Some creative dremeling and it'll work fine. \/\/\/\/

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 27 August 2004 - 03:42 PM.

[ShortShit]

Vin, I like your setup, but how do you prepose to take off the liq.gauge and attach the tubing succesfully onto the at2k valve when there isnt much of a nipple to attach it too? Thats my only concern.

** gotcha ompa. but i still see no reason that it would be impossible to do my version with the slow release valve to the liq.gauge with a little cunning inspiration, i bet one could pull it off!

Edited by ShortShit, 27 August 2004 - 03:44 PM.

[Vintage]

Here is what I will do and have done in the past. I saw off the gauge right at the beginning of the 2K airtank. I cut off the vinyl tubing from the pump. I take a 3/8" drill bit and drill right into where the gauge connected to the 2K tank. That makes the hole big enough for 3/8" vinyl tubing, which also fits very snugly over the pump nipple.

Now, somehow I will have to alter the tubing setup to allow for the RF20 valve.

Ok, Ompa, I guess I will try the slow release valve first. It will at least make the appearance cleaner, because I can have it internal.

Oh, and you are not a post whore. Post count has little to do with your maturity or membership standing. It's the value of the posts themselves. This thread is definitely worth your input.

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 27 August 2004 - 03:50 PM.

[ompa]

Gah, I have to post again... Tex's ranges were fairly accurate. I assume that the inntertube will make the ranges better, but wow, the velocity SUCKS. I'd compare the velocity to my tri-barreled secret shot. The amount of air the valve lets in immediately is only the size of the valve itself, which as you can see, is fairly tiny. In my opinion, to make this gun use it's full potential, a different form of valve is NEEDED!

That Soldenoid might have to do, as the regulator is just too tiny to really work well...

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 27 August 2004 - 03:51 PM.

[Vintage]

Ompa, I think it all boils down to how much pressure the RF20 bladder works under. If that is significantly less than the 2K airtank, you will get significantly less range. If you can increase the pressure of the bladder, you increase the range.

~Vintage

[ShortShit]

AHAHAH well I've got an idea... we could all just make HOMEMADES with BLADDERS, or better yet, lets just buy REAL guns! I hope we can brainstorm something up. I've heard this "inntertube" thang being mentioned to increase range but im not familiar with what that means. I've never actually bought an auto gun so I lack knowledge of them.

[cxwq]

I am what, 8th on the top posters and I've only been here for like 5 months...

Thank you.

You'll never see me bitching someone out for making a ton of useful posts and contributing to the community. There are lots of bright people here that I wish would post more.

I've already deleted most of the dumb ones that posted too much so rest assured you're not in that group.

Ompa, I think it all boils down to how much pressure the RF20 bladder works under. If that is significantly less than the 2K airtank, you will get significantly less range. If you can increase the pressure of the bladder, you increase the range.

Bingo. Emphasis mine. You don't want the valve to have anything to do with the shot being fired because we're using it specifically as a regulator. You want there to be enough volume and pressure in the (primary) tank to fire your dart adequately. The secondary tank is for the remaining shots. Besides, the vinyl tubing and tiny nipples prevent enough flow to have a significant impact on dart velocity.

[Vintage]

Thirst said putting bike inner tubes on the bladder is not a good idea. I want to know why? If you layered a few sections over the bladder, and secured them as tight as possible with pipe clamps, it should work. Right? I mean, the bladder is originally only held on with plastic and 4 screws.

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 27 August 2004 - 04:05 PM.

[texmustache]

Well i think adding extra tubing would help the ranges, yes, but it would also decrease the amount of shots, because there is less room for air. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm going to test this with rubber bands...i don't have any bike tube. By the way, mine is held on with the original casing.




UPDATE: I added 50 size 18 rubber bands around the bladder: The range increased by about 5-10 feet, and the velocity was noticably higher. BUT you lose about 5 shots.

PICTURES!
http://www.freewebs....pidfire2000.jpg
copy and paste

Edited by texmustache, 27 August 2004 - 05:33 PM.

[Vintage]

Yes you will lose shots because more air is outputted with each shot. That is what we want though. I will try to innertube mine shortly. I already have the goop on the setup.

~Vintage

[Crankymonky]

The pressure increases so much when inner-tubed, that the pressure blows off, or breaks the vynil. This is what happened when Thirst modded his RF20. This was when using the RF20 vynil. Possibly using a vynil that holds more pressure would allow innertubing, which greatly increases range. When Thirst gets home, he intends to inner tube his current Semi' 2k.(The first one). We need to get some more 2k's over here. I'm not sure when Thirst is going to try something with the RF20 valve.

[texmustache]

I'm going to cut the rubber bands off. I don't believe that the loss in shots makes up for the addition to range, as accuracy isn't too much better. And as Cranky said, i don't want to pop the tubing.

[ompa]

I'll add a layer of bike tubing to mine- the tubing pwns rubber bands, no offense man. It's cheap though. I'll test it later tonight. I'm expecting a 10-20 foot increase-and I'd be content with 4 powerful shots. As long as I get 4 shots out of that bladder, I'm perfectly content.

Thanks Cx.

UPDATE: I added the innertubing, and there really seems to be little-to-no increase in range whatsoever. I'm convinced it's the RF20 valve that's the problem. I think it only allows as much air as what's in the valve itself out, which is tiny.

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 27 August 2004 - 07:34 PM.

[BoltMasterZero]

I think the back placement is definatly a plus. You could probably use it as a sort of mini-stock. This whole idea is very cool. I am thinking of modding my other AT2000 similarly.

[ompa]

Don't use the RF20 valve unless someone comes up with a way to make it bigger...

Anyone have any ideas for what kind of replacement valves could be used? I'll search tonight as well if I don't go anywhere. So far:

Soldenoid (Cxwq)

~ompa

[texmustache]

UPDATE: I added the innertubing, and there really seems to be little-to-no increase in range whatsoever. I'm convinced it's the RF20 valve that's the problem. I think it only allows as much air as what's in the valve itself out, which is tiny.

~ompa

It's not the valve...i'm pretty sure of that. All the valve does on yours is decrease the speed the air flows through. If it was only the air in the valve your darts would only go about 10 feet maybe. Ompa, you might want to try adding another layer of tubing. As far as replacement valves, i'm pretty sure Lowes or Home Depot would have SOMETHING. They have about 1/4 aisle for connecters, theres probably a valve there.

If your primary valve is taped, then go and take it off, theres no use.
I think that you wouldn't notice a 5 foot difference that 1 layer would add, but probably a 10 or 15 foot difference.

Edited by texmustache, 27 August 2004 - 07:45 PM.

[ompa]

Yeah, I took off that primary valve, and it still works. No range testing YET though; it seems to work slightly better, but it just might be my imagination.

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 27 August 2004 - 07:59 PM.

[cxwq]

Maybe I'm confused here, it's hard to follow all the different terminology being used.

Ompa, you're still using the unmodded at2k tank and firing pin for the air release into the barrel, yes?

If so, the performance of the other valves shouldn't be higher because that will just give you a greater volume of low pressure air which isn't going to benefit you much. What we need to do is find a way to make the secondary (RF20) tank operate at a higher pressure so that we can get the whole system up near the pressure levels that make the at2k so successful. Then we get both lots of shots and great range - no sacrifice.

The problem is that to maintain a CPS system we need an elastic secondary tank rather than a rigid one, but an elastic tank has trouble handling the pressure we want. If you did this with PVC, for instance, you would get a great first shot, a not so great second shot, an average third shot, etc.

Thoughts?

[THIRST]

Sorry I havn't posted for awhile, I was at a cross country meet, I did pretty well considering it was my first race as freshman, and I am runing on tibial tendenidus in my left ankle, I beat many people.

Alright, Im hearing a lot of talk about how the rf20 valves are bad, explain why please, I plan on using either one, depending on how it works, and Im too tired to think right now.

When Thirst gets home, he intends to inner tube his current Semi' 2k.(The first one). We need to get some more 2k's over here. I'm not sure when Thirst is going to try something with the RF20 valve.

1. I never intended to inner tube my 2k I have right now, I never mentioned anything like it.
2. I am going to try somethign with ym rf20 vlaves.

On my clip modded rf20, it popped and blw off the tubes, and when I replaced the vinal tubing with stronger, much stronger tubing, those just blew off. The pressure on an inner tubed rf20 is too much for plumbers goop, and for rf20 tubes.

Alright, conerning the rf20 valve,s from what I gather, the main valve would ae it near semi auto, and you have to push it, but you would get a more powerful shot. The secondary valve lets the air out slowly, moe slowly than my regulation, so I can understand the lower ranges. Im thinking of using the largr valve it would take waway semi auto, but the range woud be much better, and the rof would stay amazing. Also, your 2k diagram with te rf20 vlave and all is pretty much the eact same as mne, but I have mine positioned differently(Only so you can ses it easily, it wouldnt really be like that.) From what everyone is describing the smaller of the rf2 valves lets air out very slowly, it seems like a god regulator, but is the airflow really that bad? If we put it under more pressure, it would regulate air faster, so you can eep reliable semi auto, but have better range and velocity.

THIRST

[Vintage]

I definitely think adding strength to the bladder is the right way to go. Even if it means gooping new vinyl tubing to the connections. Store-bought vinyl tubing definitely can hold the pressure. I use it to replace the liquitron gauge on my 2K's. I am going to try gooping all connections, and adding a few layers of bike tubing over the bladder.

I just need to get out and buy the right size vinyl.

Edit: I just read your post Thirst. You are saying that even fully cured goop doesn't stand the pressure? It worked well with the vinyl in my liquitron removal mod.

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 27 August 2004 - 08:57 PM.

[THIRST]

The vinal strength isnt the problem, its the goop strength, a strong, tight seal on the rf20 with lots of goop blew it right of, I think were coming from the wrong approach, maybe if we put small rubber balls inside te bladdr, it will increase the pressure, and its easily controlled. I now that idea was in a post of Zero's a very long tie ago, and I think I just found a way to use it.

Also, concerining inner tubing the bladder, we need to remember that the 2k vinal tubgis meant to hold more pressue, Vintage, if it worked for you, it may work again here.

THIRST

Edited by THIRST, 27 August 2004 - 08:59 PM.

[texmustache]

If you have trouble with popped connections, you probably need hose clamps, goop and brass pipe nipples. Me, i think my AT2k is fine. Great for CQB, Good for outdoor wars as well. What i really want is a 3k with this attackment, because that would make it on the verge of a full auto. Right, i said small bands in an earlier post, perhaps you missed it. 50 bands = +5-10 feet, but less shots.

Edited by texmustache, 27 August 2004 - 08:58 PM.

[THIRST]

The thing is, on the rf20, there was no room for even the smallest clamps. Fortunatly, most people that do my clip mod IM me fitst, and I give them a proper warning. Tubes popped for some, didnt for others.

THIRST

[Vintage]

Yeah, the nipples on all the vinyl connections are not very long. Maybe that is why they did not hold. Perhaps if you put the new vinyl on, gooped it there, and then screwed the 'vinyl cap' (that secures all of the connections in the stock RF20) over the goop and nipple, it would hold.

Otherwise, you might need smaller tubing to goop in a hole drilled into the nipples.

~Vintage