294 replies to this topic

[Crankymonky]

I think before trying the ball idea and Vintage's replacement of parts, we try using epoxy. Epoxy can hold 3 tons of pressure...Better epoxy is made, I am not sure up to what PSI, but check on the package. This may be a way to keep those vinyl on the bladder while the inner tube is in place.

Crank'

[Vintage]

So, have you found this better epoxy, or do you just know of its existence?

By the way, putting anything in the bladder should not do anything. It doesn't do anything to the stiffness of the bladder which is what determines the PSI. All it will do is make it hold less air which means fewer pumps but fewer shots.

Edit: For those interested, the vinyl tubing that comes with the RF20 is 1/4" OD, 3/16" ID. I think the tubing that comes with the RF20 should stand the pressure, and I am trying that before I replace it. I just need to see if the connections stand the pressure.

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 27 August 2004 - 10:25 PM.

[THIRST]

By the way, putting anything in the bladder should not do anything. It doesn't do anything to the stiffness of the bladder which is what determines the PSI. All it will do is make it hold less air which means fewer pumps but fewer shots

Here are my thoughts. If we put rubber inside, it wil also pressurize the ruber, whcih pushes out, and presserizes he gun even more. Again, we'll never know unti someone tests it. I would do it, but Im waiting on a 2k.

Alright, I've pretty much got the design worked out, were just waiting on a few things, such as a 2k(by the way thnks Cx). We're on our homestreach now guys, but I need a favor from someone, a test I would say. I need someone to stick peices of rubber, or bouncy balls into the rf20 bladder, and see if it makes a difference. If it does, Im implementing it into the mod. Here are the list of names who are gong to be writing part of the writeup:

Ompa
Texmustache
Cx
Crankymonky
Vintage
Shortshit-Special favor, I need you to actually do a small writeup fort the RSCB barrel, we'll talk specifics over PM's and aim, Ill contact you.
Me

Also, I will be editing the writeup pieces to go with the flow. Also, when you post in a topic, people will bow down to you. Thanks for contributing guys! The design wil implement a nearly internal gun, usng the rf20 slow release valve(depending), and Ompa, I need specifics on its performance. I will also useing the rubber effect inside the bladder, depending if it works. All questions can be PM'd, or IM'd at THIRST13. Thanks for making this possible guys! Also, I'm sorry that we're all waiting on me to get a 2k, hopefully I can buy a few off of Cx, because my Targets arent stocking them, and Im clean out of 2k's.

We worked and cooperated together to achieve a goal, and we're nearly there. I hope you guys realzie semi-auto has been an idea wanted since the begining of nerf guns, and the only people who could do it were NERF, and even their system was touchy. To me, all you guys are legends. This topic is a fine example of what NerfHhaven ass-kickin' members can do!

Again, Ompa, I need your performance specs for the slow release valve, and I need someone to test usng rubber inside the bladder. Lets wrap it up guys.

THIRST

Edited by THIRST, 27 August 2004 - 10:31 PM.

[Vintage]

I would also like to have plans for the RSCB barrel system.

And to Thirst: Why would you want to put rubber balls into your bladder if a bike tire will do the same thing?

Mine is almost done, I just need to get a bike innertube from my local sport shop.
The goop is going to dry overnight, and then we see if it holds.

Hey, much thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic!

~Vintage

[ompa]

Ok so basically, inntertube the RF20 bladder with 2-3 layers, and I should expect a 20ft increase in range? Because my vinyl tubing seems to be holding up fine- and I'm really dissatisfied with the range and I'd risk blowing the tubes.

~ompa

[ShortShit]

And I'de recommend starting with two before moving to three, if yah know what I mean.

*Also the thickness of said tubing is much more important than how many layers you attach.

Edited by ShortShit, 27 August 2004 - 11:43 PM.

[cxwq]

Putting rubber balls into the inner tube is going to increase the elasticity of the pressure chamber but decrease the volume. Neither of these is something we need here!

If Zero mentioned rubber balls, I'll bet he was suggesting putting them into a non-elastic tank as a way of simulating the CPS effect of the RF20 bladder. Replace the bladder with a 6" section of 3" PVC and drop two racquet balls in. With proper fittings it will take more pressure than the at2k pump can deliver and it will have enough elasticity to it that you can get more than one shot off before the pressure begins to drop. We'd have to test various materials to determine the optimal configuration. Though it's apparently a re-heated idea, this is the second earth shattering concept I've read in this thread.

Thirst, please do a choose-your-own writeup where you feature multiple ways of implementing this based on what all those guys you named end up with as their final products. Ideally we could all test using a similar barrel arrangement and identical darts and come up with a graph of range vs. number of shots. I don't want the writeup to be one particular gun, I want it to be an enduring monument to this discussion and all the different ideas it kicked off.

[BoltMasterZero]

The thing is, on the rf20, there was no room for even the smallest clamps. Fortunatly, most people that do my clip mod IM me fitst, and I give them a proper warning. Tubes popped for some, didnt for others.

THIRST

I may be able to suggest something to help with popped connections. You might want to try is to put the tubing over the connector and melting it with a blowtorch so it conforms to the shape of the connector. That would create a supertight connection.

[THIRST]

Thirst, please do a choose-your-own writeup where you feature multiple ways of implementing this based on what all those guys you named end up with as their final products. Ideally we could all test using a similar barrel arrangement and identical darts and come up with a graph of range vs. number of shots. I don't want the writeup to be one particular gun, I want it to be an enduring monument to this discussion and all the different ideas it kicked off.

Ha! great, thats even better, we'll definatly do that. I already have the RSCB barrel from SS, now Ima need a writeup from Ompa, Tex, and Vintage, did you do one, it wasnt clear? Then, I'll do mine, which combined pretty much the best of everything, though it sounds like its gonna eb similar to ompas. Depending on how strong 2k tubing is, Im going to use a bike inner tube.

Alright, everyone who made one of these guns needs to give me a writeup with pics, and I'll edit them and do all that stuff. Then comes the fun part, for me at least.

And what ae we going to call these guns? Thirst's 2k, Ompa's 2k, or Tex's 2k? Do we need to call them like Mark 1 and Mark 2 or would that get confusing? Im satisfyed with Thirst's 2k and Ompa's 2k.

Also, the people who didnt make the guns, Cx, and Vinatge(?), you guys really deserve to have something in the writeup, If I cant think of asomething you need to, because a special thanks isnt enough.

THIRST

EDIT: Also, I hear Diablo is making thse babys too, so If he wants to do a writeup and join this thread, that works too, the more the merrier.

Edited by THIRST, 28 August 2004 - 09:23 AM.

[Crankymonky]

I think that you need to show each and every step. Like, not just each person's final step, but each person's first,second,etc. tries. I think that this thread needs to be incorporated onto the writeup. Also, I wouldn't rush the writeup so much Dave, give it a week or so at least.

[THIRST]

Uhh, no. We arent rushing the writeup, we're phsycing up for it, I dont expect their writeups for at most a few weeks. Alos, I may take quotes from this thread and put them in the writeup, and am obviously going to post a link. Their writeup will post step by step, not just their finished product. They wont post their failures, because its a writeup, not a documentary. They post what works best, and we compare. Then the modder choses which one he wants to do.

THIRST

[Crankymonky]

So, have you found this better epoxy, or do you just know of its existence?

I just know that epoxy can hold far more pressure than goop. Let me look on a package. It doesn't say what goop holds, but Epoxy can hold 3500PSI or more, depending on the brand. It should say on the package.

[Vintage]

Vintage, did you do one, it wasnt clear?

Yeah, I am doing one, and it will be dry tonight. My one will be different cause I am using the main trigger valve instead of the slow release one.

My writeup will come soon.

~Vintage

[Crankymonky]

[THIRST]Ok, and just to let you know, I've already started, al I need is a 2k, nice. I will be using an inner tubed rf20 with the slow release valve, and the rscb barrel system, and Im trying to get all but the bladder internal, and I really think I can do it.

Vintage, Im glad that your doing the main tirgger valve, though it wont be a true semi-auto, thats really good for comparison, the regulation.

THIRST

Sorry, I didnt see my Cranky was logged in : /
[/THIRST]

Edited by crankymonky, 28 August 2004 - 11:02 AM.

[texmustache]

So we'll compare

Thirst and ompa are using the slow release valve
Vintage and I are using the main (fast release) valve.

Thirst your using the clip system
I'm using a turret

I'll try to do a write-up sometime this week, because i start school next week.
As for pictures, i'll have to see. I host them on freewebs and i'm only allowed 50 mb per month for bandwidth.

By the way, ompa, how long does it take to refill the chamber between shots?

Edited by texmustache, 28 August 2004 - 11:16 AM.

[THIRST]

I dont care where you host them, all I need is your writeup, and the pics, it doesnt even need to be online. And dont worry, take your time, It will take me a bit of time to get a 2k anyways. Also, Tex and Vintage, make sure your mods differ in several ways, for instance, my 2k will only be usng the slow release valve, where as Ompa's used the whole rf20 mech.

THIRST

Edited by THIRST, 28 August 2004 - 11:52 AM.

[ompa]

Actually I cut out the primary valve too . Anyways, yeah, I have the turret on mine, so we got lucky and have all spectrums. Tex, I don't need to refill it at all- it's just pump, pull, pull, pull....

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 28 August 2004 - 12:29 PM.

[Hunter]

I like this, Thirst.

Some of the new barrel designs appearing are litterally breathtaking. I love my RSCB Blast Bazooka. I'm currently working on a gravity fed bolt action variation of it, I'll stick up pictures later.

The whole "rubber ball" thing is really cool, a concept I had never thought of before. It's seems so simple, really. Well, for now I'm stuck on barrel modifications, and Thirst is doing a really good job, although it looks ugly.

Here is a pic. I have to explain because the text button in Paint isn't working (I KNOW!).

RSCB Gravity Fed Bolt Action

Brown thing is 1/2" dowel with an O ring on it and a handle.
You should understand 1/2" PVC, copper barrel, T and elbow.
Square thing above the open PVC is the clip, I have yet to muster a way to drop in darts without them falling tip first....

Action: You push the dowel foward, lodging a dart in the barrel while the O ring creates a seal with the PVC behind it. This way, you don't need an airtight clip, and you don't lose alot of air (floating around) like you did in the original RSCB. You then pull back the dowel and another clip falls into place.

This is all made, I just need to fix a few flaws.

Sorry for the Hi-jack, Thirst. If you want I'll take it down. Just didn't think we needed a new topic for it, and we are on the topic of barrels.... and such....

Edited by Hunter, 28 August 2004 - 12:30 PM.

[THIRST]

Hunter, your fine.

Hnm, wouldnt the inner tube in this just counter the effect of regulation and pressure the air to go out faster? Im gonna not use an inner tube, and see if it makes a difference with Ompa's.

THIRST

EDIT: Alright, I just wne to the store, got some vinal tubing, copper couplers for the rscb, and a hose clamp, the hose clamp makes a perfect seal with the inner tube, now Im just waiting on a 2k. If anyones store has a 2k that they could possibly sell me, or their store has one, I would buy/trade, possibly a lot. PM me.

Edited by THIRST, 28 August 2004 - 03:54 PM.

[Vintage]

Alright, my RF20 is dry. It does not work at all. The main RF trigger valve is meant to let pressure through when the valve in depressed, but it also lets pressure out when the trigger is released. Here's a diagram:


This valve definitely won't work with the bladder design. We need a substitute and quick.

~Vintage

[ompa]

"Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't cut it."

Name the movie from which this quote comes from and I'll give you a cookie.

Vintage, use the slow release valve, works just fine. I just have both valves on because for some reason it works better for me. Yes, I reattached that primary trigger valve to the slow release valve.

~ompa

[Vintage]

I Robot, but let's not get off topic.

Yes, I concede embarassment. I forgot that after you fire a stock RF20, you hear a hissing sound. That's the air that never got out of the gun, but needed to empty to prepare for the next trigger pull.

I would still rather have two valves fire the gun. The thought of wasting extra air in the bladder doesn't make me feel good. I want just the air in the 2K tank to fire at a time. I just need to scrap a valve off of one of my other guns, I guess. Or use a zero valve.

~Vintage

[ompa]

If you REALLY want it so that you don't waste ANY air from the bladder, you can't use the RF20 valve system. It bugged me too, which is why I was asking for names of any valves that are used to regulate air/water/whatever.

A Zero valve? Wow Vintage, that's actually a rather interesting idea- just miniturize it to use smaller parts to the valve really doesn't hold much air, only lets air through or not. But if you're going to use a zero valve, you might as well use a ball valve instead, if you're lazy, since it's less work. You also wouldn't need to worry about pulling the firing pin right out of the valve.

~ompa

[Vintage]

Actually, I just thought of a way to scrap the RF20 slow release valve altogether (if you still want to have slow moving air from the bladder).

Just connect the bladder to the 2K airtank directly with vinyl tubing, and use tape or something to put a crimp in the vinyl. That should do exactly what the RF20 slow release valve is doing for you right now, but without all that excess routing.

I might try it, but I really want to isolate the air in the 2K tank with a valve.

~Vintage

Edited by Vintage, 28 August 2004 - 07:50 PM.

[ompa]

Or just coil up vinyl tubing- like 6 inches of it inside the AT2k and it'll do the same thing. I say this because the tape might start to come apart and the crimp would disappear.

Vintage, but are there really any valves for that besides the zero, soldenoids, and ball valves? And the problem is that those are all bulky, and would probably be even more bulky than the setup I have right now. I really don't mind a few tubes on the outside- Bondo can make it smooth anyways.

I was thinking of valve types- what about a plug valve? I'm sure a local hardware store would carry them, and it SHOULD be small enough so it should be able to fit inside the AT2k. All you would need is to make a small hole for the pin, which you would need turn a quarter turn between shots. It should work great-but does anyone have any plug valves? It's better than the ball valve because it's only a quarter turn vs. the half turn of a ball valve.

For a few different valves. The one I'm talking about is, obviously, the plug valve.

~ompa

Edited by ompa, 28 August 2004 - 07:59 PM.