157 replies to this topic

[Y-Brik]

While padding the plunger head isn't a bad idea, the worst failures I have ever had with the 3 snaps I made are failures in bonds, not in the PVC material. Also, the coupler/bushing setup found on most snaps seems far more resilient than the single reducing fitting on your (very interesting) harpoon gun.

[Carbon]

Has anyone here experienced failures after repeated use of their SNAPs?

I think mine might be the best case study in prolonged use. I'm still using the SNAP I built for the first writeup, and haven't any stress breaks (close to five years old...sheesh!). Granted, I use a smaller spring than a [k26], but I still haven't had any issues other than normal wear parts.

Brittleness can come into play with sunlight. Painting PVC helps tremendously.

Is it common or necessary to cushion the impact between the plunger and the front bushing?

The traditional SNAP plungerhead has a rubber fender washer (or two) on the impact surface, so it has a bit of padding already. There's also the air cushion built up with a tight dart fit, so it isn't the full spring force whacking the plungerhead into the bushing.

Edited by Carbon, 22 August 2010 - 04:27 PM.

[Fome]

If at all possible, I want to use cheap, readily available parts that require a minimum of shaping. My philosophy of SNAP design is that someone should be able to build one with a drill and a hacksaw, after walking back from the hardware store. SNAP is an acronym, after all, and the S is for “simplified”. They can get complex, with more difficult to source parts, but I think the essence is simplicity...and that shouldn’t get lost.

While I agree that the beauty of SNAPs is their simplicity, there's no reason not to use that simple platform and make something that's truly exceptional, not only in performance but in looks and ergonomics. These are toys, they should draw you in and beckon you to pick them up and play with them.





The above design is very comfortable but was a pain to construct. I used some principles of this design in my next one, which I'm very happy with:



It uses a stock that runs underneath the plunger rod instead of above it. The natural movement for priming a pull-back blaster is to reach over and back, not under or to the side. To prevent cheek-diddle, the shoulder rest is far enough back and angled to fit slightly under your shoulder, instead of against it. To encourage further elevating your head, it has an "integration rail" on the top that you sight along, instead of the body of the gun. It also has an anti-cheek diddle priming bar with a return spring (not pictured) and the 1/2" sch40 PVC nub is rounded in case you actually do stick your face in there. The stock can also be easily removed from the coupler, if you want a pistol version.

It also has a bigass, comfortable handle which can be directly screwed to the 1.25" PVC and a double fingered trigger.



The thick wood pieces (handle, shoulder rest, trigger guard) can be cut from a 5x5.5" square with minimal waste. The side panels are also cut from a 4x3" square of thin basswood and can be easily cut with a hobby knife or razor blade.

These differences yield a much sexier, more comfortable SNAP (beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yada yada) that is only marginally more time consuming to make than your standard Mk V.

[Carbon]

While I agree that the beauty of SNAPs is their simplicity, there's no reason not to use that simple platform and make something that's truly exceptional, not only in performance but in looks and ergonomics.

Hey, you don't need to tell me about that...I'm the guy who riveted together leather for a SNAP manta.

In my mind, ergonomics and cosmetics are a subject entirely separate from the mechanics of the blaster...which are still basic plumbing and hardware parts. The "standard" SNAP is now a mk5 SNAPbow, but the parts list isn't very different from my very first one. That's more the point I'm making, not that they shouldn't look good, or have good performance, or have difficult to produce ergonomics. The important simplicity lies in the guts of it. What happens after that point is up to everyone. My concern is if "standard" parts start to gravitate towards exotic parts like skirt seals...not individualized bondo work.

But at the end of the day...

These differences yield a much sexier, more comfortable SNAP (beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yada yada) that is only marginally more time consuming to make than your standard Mk V.

Easy to build with good ergonomics? Sounds like an addition that fits the SNAP philosophy to me.

Edited by Carbon, 22 August 2010 - 08:49 PM.

[Broderick]

Alright, I've got a question regarding Pump snaps. I know people use the wire priming method for less plunger mass, therefore higher velocity, but what's stopping you from just using the tried and true CPVC? Couldn't you run the slit the length of the plunger rod so that the grip can still slide forward? The mass I don't think will be much of an issue, since the range difference between the "Supa Snap" design with the wire priming mech and the normal SnapBow design with CPVC is marginal, if anything more decisive than individual dart/barrel fit, etc.
I suppose my major concern is the CPVC actually cracking or completely failing at the point where it is pulled back by the bolt, and thus where it slams back when fired.

[BustaNinja]

Alright, I've got a question regarding Pump snaps. I know people use the wire priming method for less plunger mass, therefore higher velocity, but what's stopping you from just using the tried and true CPVC? Couldn't you run the slit the length of the plunger rod so that the grip can still slide forward? The mass I don't think will be much of an issue, since the range difference between the "Supa Snap" design with the wire priming mech and the normal SnapBow design with CPVC is marginal, if anything more decisive than individual dart/barrel fit, etc.
I suppose my major concern is the CPVC actually cracking or completely failing at the point where it is pulled back by the bolt, and thus where it slams back when fired.

If you are gonna do that, have the priming mech sleeve around the CPVC. Cutting slits in stuff is honestly a pretty bad practice. Just cut a hole in a CPVC tee and make it slide freely over the CPVC, then have an end cap at the end. It would be more secure.

[Broderick]

Alright, I've got a question regarding Pump snaps. I know people use the wire priming method for less plunger mass, therefore higher velocity, but what's stopping you from just using the tried and true CPVC? Couldn't you run the slit the length of the plunger rod so that the grip can still slide forward? The mass I don't think will be much of an issue, since the range difference between the "Supa Snap" design with the wire priming mech and the normal SnapBow design with CPVC is marginal, if anything more decisive than individual dart/barrel fit, etc.
I suppose my major concern is the CPVC actually cracking or completely failing at the point where it is pulled back by the bolt, and thus where it slams back when fired.

If you are gonna do that, have the priming mech sleeve around the CPVC. Cutting slits in stuff is honestly a pretty bad practice. Just cut a hole in a CPVC tee and make it slide freely over the CPVC, then have an end cap at the end. It would be more secure.

Alright, I see what you're saying. I would just have to attach the bolt(s) to either side of the tee via some sort of bracket. Thanks, that helps a lot.

[BustaNinja]

Alright, I've got a question regarding Pump snaps. I know people use the wire priming method for less plunger mass, therefore higher velocity, but what's stopping you from just using the tried and true CPVC? Couldn't you run the slit the length of the plunger rod so that the grip can still slide forward? The mass I don't think will be much of an issue, since the range difference between the "Supa Snap" design with the wire priming mech and the normal SnapBow design with CPVC is marginal, if anything more decisive than individual dart/barrel fit, etc.
I suppose my major concern is the CPVC actually cracking or completely failing at the point where it is pulled back by the bolt, and thus where it slams back when fired.

If you are gonna do that, have the priming mech sleeve around the CPVC. Cutting slits in stuff is honestly a pretty bad practice. Just cut a hole in a CPVC tee and make it slide freely over the CPVC, then have an end cap at the end. It would be more secure.

Alright, I see what you're saying. I would just have to attach the bolt(s) to either side of the tee via some sort of bracket. Thanks, that helps a lot.

Yeah, thats exactly it. it honestly would be a logical improvement on the pump snap design, and allow you to make a different stock, or a detachable stock, something I wouldn't want to do with the wire snap.

[TantumBull]

That's actually not a half bad idea. Save hella $ on ferrules and aircraft cable. But then again, it is a whole lot simpler to just use the tried and true wire method.

More info on Taer's PumpSnap and how it disassembles:

Once the slide is removed via the bolt at the back that pulls back the wire plunger, the connecting coupler between the plunger tube and stock is exposed.


Just loosen that little screw...


Then just bang on the end of the stock until the coupler comes off (the coupler is solvent welded to the "stock half" of the snap).


Here's a pic of everything. Disassembling takes literally about 45 seconds.


The plunger can then be accessed easily by removing the two countersunk screws at the back, one of which is showing in the picture above.

Edited by TantumBull, 24 August 2010 - 09:28 PM.

[taerKitty]

Hm. I can see a quick-release pin in this thing's future. Now, a way to turn the screw something field-strippable... hm.

I'll just have to see when I finally get my hands on it. I can't wait!

[Broderick]

Alright, using CPVC instead of wire is proving more of a challenge than I originally thought. I could fill the voids in the Tee with Epoxy Putty, let it harden, and drill through that to attach the bolt(s). That way the tee could slide back to the original position, if you just use the anti face diddle method and drill a hole through the back. However, I'm not going to do this for one reason: the tee doesn't fit in 1 1/4" Sch. 40. I think for what it's worth, the wire is just more efficient. Less mass, easier build.

[TheRedRanger]

I have also been thinking about a solid-plunger-rod pumpsnap. My idea involves using a 1"to 1/2" bushing in place of the cpvc tee. You could shave the edge down so it fits in 11/4" pvc, and add a short length of 1/2" pvc ground out to slide freely over the plunger rod. I was going to try this when I make my first batch of snaps, but with school starting that probably won't be for a while

[wohnson89]

I know that this is off of the current discussion about the pump and what not, but I am making a couple of SNAPS for something and this thing is supposed to look good, and there is something about clothespin triggers that is just down right fugly. I can see from the pictures of Fome's SNAP's that he obviously knows how to do this. I could have just pm'd him but that wouldn't benefit the community.

Also something that might benefit this thread would be if Carbon could post on the first page all of the links to SNAP related things, i.e. Plunger heads, trigger designs, plunger rod variances, and stocks.

Edited by wohnson89, 26 August 2010 - 07:37 PM.

[TantumBull]

I know that this is off of the current discussion about the pump and what not, but I am making a couple of SNAPS for something and this thing is supposed to look good, and there is something about clothespin triggers that is just down right fugly. I can see from the pictures of Fome's SNAP's that he obviously knows how to do this. I could have just pm'd him but that wouldn't benefit the community.

Also something that might benefit this thread would be if Carbon could post on the first page all of the links to SNAP related things, i.e. Plunger heads, trigger designs, plunger rod variances, and stocks.

I know that rork and I believe Carbon have used 1" PVC in the past to cover up the clothespin.

I just put somewhat of a Snap directory into the first post; that is I C&P'd the homemade directory, deleting anything not Snap related, and changing the color of the member names from red to yellow. Later I'll get to doing some searching and putting in some newer things that Carbon hasn't gotten to yet.

Edit: Thanks for the heads up, Coal Ten. I'll get around to working on that soon.

Edited by TantumBull, 26 August 2010 - 09:24 PM.

[Coal Ten]

The links in the first post are messed up, they go to just index.php/blah blah blah, instead of nerfhaven.com/forums/.......

[Carbon]

I know that rork and I believe Carbon have used 1" PVC in the past to cover up the clothespin.

I used to use that method (specifically with thinwall PVC) but stopped because it was a pain in the ass. Cutting the PVC to fit properly and then somehow gluing it so it didn't break off was more work than it was worth, especially when the only reason I was doing it was to limit the clothespin pull. Additional negatives: the best way to attach them seems to be adhesives, which makes things more difficult if you need to service the clothespin.

[taerKitty]

If you're worried about looks, how about shelling the SNAP in something else? For example, an Expand-a-Blast? This one is only using 1" thinwall, hence the bit of 1-1/4" to support the clothespin.

My one-after-next will likely go in an LBB shell. I like my LBB skeletonized, and, after I added a lever trigger to it, it won't go back in the shell anyhow.

[Fome]

I know that this is off of the current discussion about the pump and what not, but I am making a couple of SNAPS for something and this thing is supposed to look good, and there is something about clothespin triggers that is just down right fugly. I can see from the pictures of Fome's SNAP's that he obviously knows how to do this. I could have just pm'd him but that wouldn't benefit the community.

My method is actually really simple.

Just take a piece of wood that's about the same thickness or a little less than your clothespin, plywood or basswood works fine. Sketch a design that you like, I find that longer triggers are easier to make a compatible handle for. Cut it out with some sort of saw and round out the edges with your sanding drum or some sand paper.

Make a little notch near the front of the trigger so the head of the nail sits flush. Glue that shit on with whatever you want and cover it up with some more thin wood panels so you can't see the clothespin.

(These pics are taken from my first build, which only used hi-temp hotglue to adhere both the clothespin and the trigger cutout. Since then, I've been mechanically reinforcing my triggers with zip-ties, similar to the classic angle bracket method).





Edit: Some better pictures




(The red one is unfinished)


Features:
anti-face diddle pullback
7 shot hopper clip w/ 12" barrel
full spring compression
red dot reflex sight (optional)
upper and lower "integration rails" ie. areas you can screw into without damaging the PT
custom wood handle, trigger, and trigger guard
padded, quick-remove stock

Edited by Fome, 27 August 2010 - 03:13 PM.

[TantumBull]

Okay, so I think the "Snap Directory" is fully functioning now. Check out the first post and let me know (by PM) if I need to change/add/remove anything. I also did some searching and added about 6 or 7 more Snap related threads that weren't yet in the Homemades Directory.

Fome: That blue Snap is hawt. Nice work.

[PVC Arsenal 17]

Excuse the noob question, but what exactly do you guys mean by "face diddle"? I'm assuming you mean the plunger rod & handle catching your cheek as the gun fires?

Also, has anyone used a spring plunger to replace the typical clothespin trigger?

[Daniel Beaver]

Excuse the noob question, but what exactly do you guys mean by "face diddle"? I'm assuming you mean the plunger rod & handle catching your cheek as the gun fires?

You are correct. A problem common to many springers with stocks. IceNine will demonstrate:

[rork]

^The +bow is especially prone to this, since it uses a much larger priming handle than most SNAPs. On a SNAP, if you mount the stock correctly and use good form when you shoot, it's not a problem. I always make sure I can shoot with a good solid cheek weld on my guns, as it improves consistency (in other words, it's more accurate). This one reason why a stock mounted on top of the gun is better than one mounted underneath, as far as i'm concerned.

[wohnson89]

I just put somewhat of a Snap directory into the first post; that is I C&P'd the homemade directory, deleting anything not Snap related, and changing the color of the member names from red to yellow. Later I'll get to doing some searching and putting in some newer things that Carbon hasn't gotten to yet.

I don't mean to be a complainer but I never liked the homemade directory. I don't care who made the gun I just want to know how it works. So maybe the directory here could organize the info by categories like one for the trigger, plunger head, pullback system. And if the gun is nothing new just have it under a section named simple gun variations or something..... its just a suggestion.

If you're worried about looks, how about shelling the SNAP in something else? For example, an Expand-a-Blast? This one is only using 1" thinwall, hence the bit of 1-1/4" to support the clothespin.

My one-after-next will likely go in an LBB shell. I like my LBB skeletonized, and, after I added a lever trigger to it, it won't go back in the shell anyhow.

Well its not the look of the gun that bothers me its just the trigger. I am most likely going to do Fome's trigger for this gun, accept I thought I might just attach it with wood glue instead of hot glue.

My method is actually really simple.

I see says the blind man.

And my last thought is for the love of God don't put duct tape on your guns!

[TantumBull]

I just put somewhat of a Snap directory into the first post; that is I C&P'd the homemade directory, deleting anything not Snap related, and changing the color of the member names from red to yellow. Later I'll get to doing some searching and putting in some newer things that Carbon hasn't gotten to yet.

I don't mean to be a complainer but I never liked the homemade directory. I don't care who made the gun I just want to know how it works. So maybe the directory here could organize the info by categories like one for the trigger, plunger head, pullback system. And if the gun is nothing new just have it under a section named simple gun variations or something..... its just a suggestion.

I'm not going to resort all of the links simply because that would be a shit ton more trouble than its worth. I do like your idea of sections, and I did consider implementing it. However there simply isn't enough content to have sections that specific (the majority of the links there are random variations, and then there'd only be like 1 or 2 links for each of the categories you're suggesting).

Anyways, the thread names will usually guide you to what you're looking for. I'll consider putting little "tags" next to the links to give you an idea of how the gun differs from your standard Snap Mk. 1.

Oh, and I do appreciate the feedback.

Edited by TantumBull, 28 August 2010 - 12:27 AM.

[rork]

People have very distinct styles, when it comes to building homemades, especially SNAPs. Pretty much everything I've done, SNAPwise, is the direct result of studying the piss out of every single writeup that Carbon has ever made, and I would encourage anyone who's serious about SNAPs to start the same way. The fact is that we DO tend to organize SNAP improvements by author, as when we discuss my SNAPbow setup, or Carbon's trigger, or TantumBull's plunger head, or Carbon's handle.