370 replies to this topic

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

I don't feel that strongly about the bottom-loading design upon reflecting on it. During Algebra II, which is usually when I get my hour of sleep, I considered the design changes. The pros are that I am rebuilding the gun anyways, so it won't be a problem to change the half-assed carrier I was making, that the gun can be made without gears, and that the concept is simple. The cons are that the peg needs a slot to travel in, and that may be difficult to make without having the peg get caught on a portion of the carrier port (the peg will sit in the carrier port between the magazine and breech while the bolt is closed, but while opening, it will have to be able to continue the predetermined groove I will cut for it). The latter can be solved by simply making the carrier port's rear-most end V-shaped so that the peg cannot get caught on anything. The two things about this design that I find most beneficial are that the gun can be side-loaded (given the specific placement of the peg described in my earlier post) while the bolt is closed, and that it is simple to fabricate and maintain. Props for your design, jwasko.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 10 October 2007 - 07:17 PM.

[privateer]

"During Algebra II, which is usually when I get my hour of sleep..."

I second that. The crowning achievement of my freshman year was skipping 9 days of calc III (about 1/4 of the class) and making a B.

Box magazines are where it's at man. But if you can make a tube work...

Do it.

AD

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

There are advantages and disadvantages to both that I was considering.

Tube Magazine:
Pros:
This will be the first tube magazine for darts/shells in existence, or at least to the best of my knowledge.
It fits nicely under the barrel for a more compact design.
It provides another rail for the pump to ride of for stability.
This will be a shotgun as opposed to a SCAR-N remake.

Cons:
A tube magazine requires a carrier.
The magazine must be loaded shell by shell as opposed to slamming in a fresh box magazine.

Box Magazine:
Pros:
Does not require the use of a carrier.
It is easier to reload the gun by replacing the magazine rather than filling it up one shell at a time.

Cons:
Requires the construction of a magazine well. Although this isn't too difficult, it can be annoying to get the release working smoothly.
The magazine sticks out of the bottom of the gun, which doesn't lend itself to a compact design.
The ideal magazine would have a constant-force spring, which I would need to special order from an internet source like McMaster Carr. I don't have anything against them, but I avoid orders unless they contain large numbers of materials for combined shipping rates.
I wanted this gun to operate like a common, tube magazine shotgun, not the SCAR-N or a box-fed shotgun.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 11 October 2007 - 07:56 AM.

[jwasko]

Props for your design, jwasko.

Thanks, but it's not really mine...it's some-guy-who-works (or worked)-at-Remington's. You are welcome, however, for bringing the design to light.

Well, I've made a bit of a discovery. Surprise of surprises...not all real-life shot guns utilize gears in the operation of the carrier (if, indeed, any do). Case in point: The ever-popular Remington 870.

Here's a diagram of how the action works, with a focus on what causes the carrier to move:



Here's a diagram detailing what I think causes the carrier to act the way it does. Hint: it's the placement of an extension spring, which in this picture is represented by an orange line.



Note that the carrier is free to be pushed up at any time; it is not locked down or other wise forced into the flat position by the bolt. The bolt just nudges it enouugh so that a spring can then pull it the rest of the way down. Of course, you can still push the carrier up to load: you just need to stretch the spring a little.

A third and final diagram details what keeps the shells from coming out at certain times, and only lets out one (and only one) at other times.



I'm particularly proud of how that last one turned out. I'm getting pretty good at this, if I say so myself.

Oh, and by the way, the "shell catches" in that last pic aren't really squared off like I have them drawn. They're rounded on the rear side so that you can put shells in even when they're closed, but shells won't slip out until the catch is open.

PS: The colors on these pics got a little messed up when I converted them to GIF images. Apparently my old PC was made before PNG was invented.

Edited by jwasko, 12 October 2007 - 12:02 AM.

[NerfFreak]

Very nice. I've had a bunch of ideas like that in the past, but just ran into one problem, and that's that I hate to use pins or pivots to attach things, which is whats needed for a carrier.

Might have to try this again, but right now I'm working on a project that might take some time to finish.

[Pineapple]

Happy New Year!

Any progress? Hate to see this thing abandoned after ALL that research.



-Piney-

[Flaming Hilt]

EDIT: So, I've recently come to realize with especial pertinence to this thread that my word on doing something doesn't really mean anything. I never actually built anything, just upped my post count and tried to understand how a shotgun works.

That being said, I'm not going to promise anything, because no one will listen anyways, but I'll let you know I have a rough sketch on my desk and the parts to do it in my workshop. I just have to work out the goddarn carrier.

Edited by Flaming Hilt, 20 January 2008 - 03:37 PM.

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

Damn. Long time, no posts. Got caught up in quite a bit over the holidays.

Rest assured, this project is still in the works, despite over a year in development hell. Since PVC is proving to be difficult to work around a CPVC-shell system, I am exploring new options for making the body of the gun. This includes resin-casting and using vacuum-forming for molds. I want this gun to have a nice, finished feel to it, rather than produce a model that looks and performs like crap.

Also, I will be working on that updated directory. This week is midterms (fun fun), so I'll probably have it around the weekend.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 13 January 2008 - 09:54 PM.

[Flaming Hilt]

Alright. Tell me if this works:

The only way I can see to ensure the shell actually ends up in the bolt is to get something under it. Without furthur ado:


And my proof of concept:




The only problem I see is that you can only load when the gun is drawn, or when it's entirely empty. I don't see any way around this, however.

Piney, I skimmed through this thread and noticed your elevator idea; it's a good idea, but I still think it would have the same problem with reloading options.

The only other option I see while keeping the tab under the shell is for the shell to circle up, around, and then onto the bolt. I don't really see an easy way this is possible though, so unless anybody else sees a kink I'll go ahead with this one...

[jwasko]

That looks like it could work quite well, Hilt.

As far as loading, there are other ways besides loading from the back end of the magazine. If I remember, Boltsniper (on his homemade bolt-action paintball marker) put the loading slot towards the muzzle end of the magazine, and had a method for pushing the follower forward enough to be able to load.

There are also a few other ways that tube-magazine-fed rifle's magazines are loaded, but I don't have time to fully explain them right now.

[Prometheus]

Two suggestions FH:

For the tab in the tube mag, use a lip like Boltsniper used for his FAR bolt, with the e-tape, easier to manufacture, in my opinion.

Second, make the tab bigger under the bolt, so it catches the feed ramp easier. Just an idea to improve reliability.

Edited by Prometheus, 24 January 2008 - 11:11 PM.

[Flaming Hilt]

Thanks to both of you. I'll see what I can do.

If you've been to the homemades thread you know I just finished my bungee-bow. I also received a part for another gun I've been wanting to build, so I don't know whether that or this will come first.

[nook]

I'm trying to make a nerf shotgun, and I'm open to suggestions. Zero, if you're reading, I ask permission for your genius silencer design, and Boltsniper for his brilliant trigger system.

When I say "Shotgun," I'm referring to the way the weapon loads shells into a magazine below the barrel and how the pump cycles the weapon. The design is similar to Boltsniper's SCAR-N.

One more thing, I'm a noob. Deal with it.

Edit: There is an update on this project at the bottom of page 20.

If you have already created the gun, then I cannot help you.
But if you made a longer barrel, then you could add a lot of stefans into the barrel.
It could work.

[washedup]

'Oct 22 2006, 10:50 AM'[/b]

2006

Edited by washedup, 11 September 2008 - 10:33 PM.

[Lynx]

WHAT ABOUT IT?

[Llama Boy]

CHECK THE FREAKING DATES!!!

[CaliforniaPants]

WHAT ABOUT IT?

CHECK THE FREAKING DATES!!!

The last post was Jan 24 2008, still a bit long. The 2006 was the first post, not the last. Done and done, sorry for the backseat mod.

[super geeK]

Uh, I have a question. Why would you want a silencer for a shotty? I worked out how the shells would load into the chamber and stuff, I don't really know how the pump would work. I'll try and get a pic of how to do the cylinder mag on the bottom (or top, which ever you prefer). I intend to use 3 different types of ammo, and this is why I would use shells. My first type of ammo are slugs, straight up 5/8 stefans. These would go teh farthest (obviously). The second type of ammo is kind of difficult to explain. It consists of chopped up stefans and two 1/2 in. to 1 in. stefans (I mean length not thickness). In bewteen those would be chopped up stefans (small pieces). It would be a flurry (again, obviously) but have no distance, its really just for affect (and coolness factor, not really practical). I have tested this types with a blow gun, and it does actually work. And thirdly, a spread type. 6 1/2 in. (my shells are 3 in. long I may shorten though so that my magazine has a higher capacity) long 5/8 stefans. I also tested this and it works beautifully.

probably what he means by "silencer" is CPVC pipe across the whole barrel, if not, then that is a waste

[MercenaryXero]

Uh, I have a question. Why would you want a silencer for a shotty? I worked out how the shells would load into the chamber and stuff, I don't really know how the pump would work. I'll try and get a pic of how to do the cylinder mag on the bottom (or top, which ever you prefer). I intend to use 3 different types of ammo, and this is why I would use shells. My first type of ammo are slugs, straight up 5/8 stefans. These would go teh farthest (obviously). The second type of ammo is kind of difficult to explain. It consists of chopped up stefans and two 1/2 in. to 1 in. stefans (I mean length not thickness). In bewteen those would be chopped up stefans (small pieces). It would be a flurry (again, obviously) but have no distance, its really just for affect (and coolness factor, not really practical). I have tested this types with a blow gun, and it does actually work. And thirdly, a spread type. 6 1/2 in. (my shells are 3 in. long I may shorten though so that my magazine has a higher capacity) long 5/8 stefans. I also tested this and it works beautifully.

probably what he means by "silencer" is CPVC pipe across the whole barrel, if not, then that is a waste

Dude, that was in 2006. >_>

[Llama Boy]

Whats up with all the necros this week?

[Chanclas]

It is a shame that necro posters are scarring the face of this thread. It really is an interesting one and I'd like to add my own two cents.

This is a design I made today that uses a carrier that is part ramp and part hinge. The design is an animation so click here to see it.

The only problem seen is that the tab under the bolt gets in the way of the shell when loading. But there are two ways to fix that. One, make the tab slightly flexible so that it can let the shell pass when loading but still have the rigidity to push the ramp up when priming. Two, prime the bolt and leave it back while you insert shells, then close the bolt.

Note that the bolt will not need to be shaped like it is in the animation--it just made it easier to think about it while I designed it. But it can, I don't see why not. Actually having that there might help solve the loading problem mentioned above if it is thin enough to give way for the shell.

The last things to add to the design would be the extraction system and the barrel chamber. But I think that those two can be just like the ones in the FAR because the shells would be 1/2" PVC with 1/2" CPVC inside them.

This is a picture to further explain the way the bolt and ramp/lift are designed.


The scale of the design isn't perfect but the thicker walls in there are .1" which is close enough to the 1/8" that is the standard wall of 1" PVC. I think it is close enough to get started working on.

Don't expect me to build it anytime soon. As you can see I can animate and it is a hobby that appeals to me more. But I had to get this out of my head so that someone else could do it. Maybe I will work on it Thanksgiving, maybe not.

And thanks to Flaming Hilt for the inspiration on this design. Originally it had a spring on the back of the ramp like his but I found it was unnecessary in my design.

Edited by Chanclas, 27 November 2008 - 01:39 PM.

[BustaNinja]

Holy shit... This is easily one of the most comprehensive, easy to follow, easy to understand ideas in this thread. kudos.

And now, to try it. This actually looks very promising.

[Chanclas]

Thank you very much. Glad to see someone else thinks it is a good idea. But remember that Flaming Hilt gets a little credit because he inspired my idea.

And I am editing the picture in my previous post because the words FRONT and SIDE are in the wrong places. They need to be switched. It is a small detail that many probably wouldn't have noticed but it bugs me so I have to change it. And I think the picture will be a bit bigger.

[Meaker VI]

That is a good idea. The only issue I'd have is building the thing, it looks difficult to fabricate, and might need some slight redesign to include a spring keeping it in a position (to prevent it from rattling around or not behaving as desired).

I had originally built something like that (I think there's a picture somewhere in here) but with a spring getting it to one position and then the bolt pushed it back.

As for your issue with that tab sticking into the loading area; it's an easy fix. Make it a metal hanger (shaped like a "<"). That way the pointy-end can be bent up when you load it, and still move the loading ramp.

Anyway, good work.

[NerfFreak]

Almost 2 years now? Damn, I've been away too long.

Well, I haven't posted in over a year, but my progress (yes, progress) on the shotgun, brings me back to the forums.

I've actually got the magtube and carrier built, and both work well. I originally started with Flaming Hilt's design, so I thank him for that. I'll have pictures up later. I'm quite busy building the thing right now.

Questions:

What's a good way to make sure you have a good seal with the plunger? In other words, what's the best way to attach o-rings to the plunger head?

Also, should I go with Boltsnipers FAR extractor/ejector, or come up with something new to extract/eject the shells? I suppose since my bolt is alot like Boltsnipers, I should use his system.

Please post, I wanna see some feedback.