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When Do Nerf Blasters Become Too Powerful?

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#26 KingBouyah

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 02:22 AM

Nearly 10 years ago, I decided that paintball had become boring to me. It had become a competition of who could fling the most paint the fastest. What did I do? I didn't quit paintball. I didn't try and "one-up" everyone by trying to fling more paint. I bought a stock class gun and went and played against people with semi-autos.

Did I get hit? You bet. Did I get a lot of kills? Not a chance. But the adrenaline rush of running at a bunch of guys who could each blast 10-15 times as many bps as I could was well worth it, especially if I could get one of them out. The original Nelspot 007 is still my favorite paintball gun of all-time, regardless of the fact that it can only hold ten shots and 12 g of CO2.

In fact last time I played paintball, we were in the woods and I was the only one dressed head to foot in bright red. Everyone else was wearing camo, a couple people even had guillie suits and they all thought I was crazy. But guess who ran around like a madman and was the last man standing on his team. The Red Baron.

If nerf has become "un-fun" to you. Maybe you should re-evaluate why you started nerfing, what made it fun, and why you're still doing it.

If you know that an upcoming war is going to suck because so-and-so is going to be there wielding some sort of monstrosity, then don't go. Or make it your personal goal to pop him in the face with a stock eliminator.

I'd go up against the Guru holding a maverick. I'd go up against a +bow holding a SSPB. Will I win? Probably not. But at the end of the day I will have had fun. And I may just humiliate someone and their beast with a puny pistol in the process.

My point is, no one can decide for you whether or not you're going to have fun. That's up to you. Veterans have told newbs time and time again that ranges mean nothing. Why should we change that now? If someone can consistently hit me from 120' away, then maybe I deserve to be hit. I'll still tell him "nice shot" every time.

On the other hand, if someone shoots me from 10' with a Xbow that can hit 100', then that's another story and it is then the behavior and not the weaponry that needs banning. Paintball put a cap on velocity at 300fps because that's where the force becomes enough to break fingers. If nerf gets to that point where we have to decide what weight/distance combination will draw blood or break through eye protection, then yes, we need to back off. But so far I don't think that's happened.

So, I say let the "technological advances" keep coming.
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#27 VACC

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 08:07 AM

Different people nerf for different reasons. For me, it's never been about an arms race, but, as is abundantly clear from this thread, for many people that is the primary attraction.

The one thing that should be constant is that nerf wars are supposed to be fun. Run your nerf wars with YOUR friends, in a manner that you find most fun. That's it.

The real issue is not with the fact that these mods are out there, it's with the fact that everytime someone tries to run a nerf war in a way that they believe would be fun, everyone who disagrees, regardless of their connection to that war, suddenly believes they have a say. Again, allow me to reiterate: Run YOUR nerf wars with YOUR friends, in a manner that YOU find most fun. It's rather simple, isn't it?

Personally, I don't plan on hosting any truly "public" wars for a while for the reason I just mentioned. I want to run a mega dart war, and maybe try a standardized blaster war. I want to do things that my friends and I would find fun without worrying about what someone from the other side of the country thinks about it.
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#28 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:48 AM

When Do Nerf Blasters Become Too Powerful?


It has always been my opinion that a Nerf Blaster can never be to powerful.
As long as it's not dangerous or unsafe we play with it.

The only time a Blaster can be to powerful is if your gun is well modded and everyone elses gun sucks so bad that the whiny kids complain.

Like bringing a well modded DTB (Barrel replacement, other gun integrated, spring replacement etc.) to a stock war. Of course all the other 6 year olds at the stock war are going to cry.

I like what Bob said about everyone is still having plenty of fun.

I also like what Vacc said and agree with it. Which has led me to a certain belief in this hobby.
Its like this: We are going to play OUR games, OUR way. Why should WE give a fuck about anyone who disagrees
with the way WE play who doesn't attend OUR wars.

Can a gun be too powerful in the North?
Fuck no.
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#29 Mr BadWrench

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 10:43 AM

You might as well sticky this.

Its all about the nerfer not the blaster. If you have a camo wearing douchbag that comes to your war with a plugged bigblast painted flat black with sight rings hotglued to the barrel for SNlPING you are most likely going to have problems. The idea of nerfing with your friends is good, but your friends have friends and one of them might be a camo wearing douchbag. At a certain point in the day you just have to decide what to do about this douchbag.
You can change game format so the troublemaker cannot use the more powerful blaster
You can tell the douchbag to stop using the blaster.
Or you can make him leave the play area. (this is where having all your friends there comes into play)

The maturity level of the players you nerf with is the deciding factor for everything. Some players only want to play pistol rounds because they have a NF that shoots 90ft and they know they have an advantage. Some players want to play big complicated games with lots of rules. An some people just want to win at any cost even if that means hurting others.

At the end of the day its the Hosts responsibility to make sure everyone has fun and no one gets hurt. The host gains reputation by planning and producing fun wars. Every time you have a good war you gain the trust of the nerfers and this trust helps when its time to tell someone to leave. (although letting one trusted friend drown the douchbag in a creek is always an option.) If you have hosted several good wars and gained the trust of the local NIC they will always back your plays.

Don
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#30 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 12:27 PM

Megas, on the otherhand are easy to make, and offer (honestly) not a huge drop in performance, but a MAJOR increase in accuracy. Its simply the whole "Bigger projectile" thing.


Low weight micros > megas.

You decrease the maximum range of the dart, and you also decrease accuracy, but in a scaling fashion. The 70' gun will still get 60' but the 140' diddle cannon might only muster 90'

If anyone was actually interested in leveling the playing field so that those newbie players with single-barrel BBBs aren't getting hosed by firefly turrets and various inline/rscb/hopper clips.

The major problem here is that this issue seems very much localized because Midwest wars end up being team +bow against team blowgun.

For those of you from the North or the South or the [insert geographic region here], I don't believe you actually understand what overpowered blasters are. You speak of a small number of those with completely stupid guns, but those that are only 20% better than what the rest of the field has.
I don't think you can truly understand unfair on a systematic level until your wars are attended by people with stock-dart shooting magstrikes vs. those who can put 8 shots through 4 layers of cardboard in under 12 seconds. And unlike the Mag7's ban on "Doomsayers", it isn't not a select few who have the super-gun, it's half the field that completely dominates the other half.
Minnesota wars allow singled titans and SM5ks. That's because everyone there can come within 80% of that power. Nothing is more frustrating for a new player in this hobby who just wants to nerf and not spend hours modding and stroking their epeen on boards than to get pelted from 3x his range by every veteran.

A dart weight limit, for us, would greatly level the field while still letting the dedicated nerfers to be able to squeeze out an extra 5 or 10' (instead of 40 or 50' if using high-mass darts) with super mods.

Edited by Zorn's Lemma, 26 October 2009 - 12:31 PM.

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#31 mystefansdontflystraight

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 01:31 PM

Well, for a Canadian nerfer, I have some pretty perculiar views on blaster restrictions, which is why I haven't hosted a war yet. I agree with Ryan that the hopper clip shooting 130ft as fast as you can prime a +bow isn't fair at all. It is no different from a doomsayer in my eyes. Yes, the ROF would be slightly slower, but it shoots farther (I believe doomsayer hits about 105ft flat, please correct me, FA if I am wrong).
I don't think doomsayers are that bad, because the average nerfer (myself included) cannot make one that is ban worthy. I have seen at least 4 or 5 "doomsayers" that don't rotate properly, that have ranges varying from zero to 90ft, and are a real pain in the ass to use. I have yet to see anyone make a fully functional one that comes anywhere close to the one FA made, in terms of range, ROF or anything like that. When the mag7 was justifying their decision, they were referencing APOC 08 with FA and Cardiac kid wielding doomsayers and raping everyone else. FA made both of them. Mag7 did not cite examples of other nerfers making them and having them work as well. A hopper clip +bow on the other hand, would be much easier to get your hands on, as +bows are readily available (for a price) and the hopper clip looks very simple in construction.



Here are some rules that I have been thinking of for my first hosting experience. Keep in mind that they are lenient, because we don't tend to ban anything that isn't legit dangerous up here.

1. No auto rotating, 4+ barrel, 100ft springers, with the exception of RFDGs. ( I really don't expect to see one that owns as much as the original, if I do, it will be adressed)

2. No air guns that shoot over 130ft flat. These can just be downright dangerous. I will allow UNPLUGGED BBBBs if they get that range, but no homemade air guns etc.

3. Air guns must be operated by manual pump (No compressors or or Co2, no HPA etc.) Air guns shooting over 100ft must take at least 2 pumps to achieve those ranges with whatever pump being used to be allowed.
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QUOTE(Blacksunshine @ Dec 24 2009, 02:15 PM) View Post

QUOTE(white moonlight @ Dec 23 2009, 01:29 PM) View Post

It's just screaming to be rearloading...

I seen a movie about that once.



#32 Draconis

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 01:52 PM

This conversation is one of the reasons that I don't go all out with my mods. I mean, we play with arrows, missiles, and ballistic balls nearly as often as we do with micros. At some point, I plan on hosting a war with scaled point values, such as:

Micros -1 point.
Megas -2 points.
Arrows/Missiles -3 points.
Ballistic Balls -5 points.

Each player get 5 points per round. Standard field exit and count-in rules apply. Lose all your points, you're out for the round.


One of the main reasons that my WIP primary is an air powered ballgun/magstrike pair.
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#33 Echnalaid

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 02:16 PM

I only play with people who have some self control. A Scout in the hands of a retard is more dangerous than a singled Titan from someone like Split.
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#34 diamondbacknf1626

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 03:01 PM

...it's half the field that completely dominates the other half.


The solution to that right there is to balance teams, which, again, as many have touched on, is up to the host of the war. This matter is so, so diverse to even spark efficient discussion, other than to bring to everyones attention that this is a game. A game with no single ruleset, but many that are changed and created by war hosts. I 100% have to agree with vacc in that it's up to the host of the war, and nobody should criticize the way other people play their games at other wars.

Now, that being said, would I attend a war where I'll only be able to use a ball blaster or a blaster created to some other restricted standards, no. Especially if the war is a distance away. Now maybe one might say I'm not seeing the fun of running around with toy guns...well, sorry to you guys...I enjoy it my way, and as does everyone else (which is the point I'm trying to get across.) One important aspect of this hobby for me is that there's not a universal ruleset, nothing that everyone has to follow. It's open for interpretation however you want to do it.

And I get what you're saying, Zorn, about your playing field being entirely unbalanced but again, like I said before, that's where the orginizer steps in and rearranges the teams to make them more fair.
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#35 Ice Nine

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 03:04 PM

The major problem here is that this issue seems very much localized because Midwest wars end up being team +bow against team blowgun.

For those of you from the North or the South or the [insert geographic region here], I don't believe you actually understand what overpowered blasters are. You speak of a small number of those with completely stupid guns, but those that are only 20% better than what the rest of the field has.
I don't think you can truly understand unfair on a systematic level until your wars are attended by people with stock-dart shooting magstrikes vs. those who can put 8 shots through 4 layers of cardboard in under 12 seconds. And unlike the Mag7's ban on "Doomsayers", it isn't not a select few who have the super-gun, it's half the field that completely dominates the other half.


I think it's worth citing the second Defend the Core round from the last Chano, which only happened this way due to poor choices on the part of the one of the team captains.

Team Ryan:
+bow
+bow
+bow (later replaced by Man Cannon)
Rear-Loading 1500
Zorn's Rapist Big Blast (later replaced by his Rapist PAS)
One of Carbon's impressive SNAPs
Crossbow and Splitfire

Team Other Guy:
Longshot
Longshot
RSCB Big Blast
Blowgun
Vulcan and Raider
Sword
Sword and "Blowgun"
Singled Longshot

Literally, at this war, there were six people who owned +bows, and another two or three (non-overlapping) with guns that shoot basically as far as a +bow.

It's become a joke between the members of the Unholy Three that nearly everything we touch becomes a weapon that would be banned at most places that aren't our wars. Between two Man Cannons, Zorn's rapist 4B, hopper-clipped +bows, the Cuddlesayer, 1500s, AT3Ks, and in the future a few other things, there isn't anything that shoots below one ten feet, and none of them put out less than a dart per two seconds.

To be honest? The only guns I've ever been afraid of are Ryan's AT3K and Zorn's Big Blast. I'm still happy to face off against them, though. I'll just be a little more careful in my rushes.

DB, team balancing doesn't work all the time, every time. I highly doubt you can name a war wherein every team in every match was fairly organized.

Edited by Ice Nine, 26 October 2009 - 03:08 PM.

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#36 Ryan201821

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 03:24 PM

blah blah blah

Agreed. I tried to not pick totally unfair teams, but sometimes it happens.

Example:

Chicago Showdown 2. There were maybe 10-15 people in attendance. 90% of the rounds were won by the team I was on. Not bragging, but just stating something.

Micros -1 point.
Megas -2 points.
Arrows/Missiles -3 points.
Ballistic Balls -5 points.

This has been really the only idea I've seen different from anything that we (Midwest group) have already proposed, but their still is a problem with this system. If I'm wielding one of these unfair blasters, you won't be able to come 100' of me before I launch off 5-10 shots.

And then inevitably, someone will make a blaster that shoots these larger projectiles, as far as micros, or at least close.

But I think you guys are all just getting too worked up about playing with toys.

Bottom line: Change the rules/restrictions to what works best for game balance at your local wars.
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#37 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:04 PM

Zorn, we have never allowed single'd titans... I mean, I understand where you might get that, but we never have... Ever.

Paul's SM5k is used, and when you think about it, its just a nicer Big Blast. Ranges are the same, if not worse, and he only has a single'd barrel on it...

The unfair team thing was really unfortunate.

Nerf is getting too powerful when we have AT3ks that shoot through 4 layers of cardboard, and have 6 shots primed in a few seconds. Thats not even a purpose built gun. And before the dick waving ensues, honestly wasn't necessary. I mean, sure its a cool novelty, but like guns painted black, or single'd titans, its something you shoot between rounds, then toss back in your trunk.

Nerf is only getting too powerful because people keep making it so. If we didn't have everyone wanting to make "Read Loading Blah Blah Blah with extended air tank and 1 pump to fill it" or "Spring gun made out a shotgun, fires 160 feet" then we wouldn't have that issue. I understand the whole "wanting to use what you make", but if you are simply modding to try to make them hurt, then you aren't doing for the right reasons.

Are these man cannons the rotating shotgun things? Those are what modding should be. They don't shoot 160 feet (You can complain all you want, but the fact is, they dont) and they offer a new way to Nerf. Take modding in this direction people.

Oh, and Zeke, its Nerf... Calling them "Man Cannons" would be like me calling my neck beard or gaming PC a "Chick Magnet". Just throwin that out there.
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#38 Ryan201821

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:17 PM

Zorn, we have never allowed single'd titans... I mean, I understand where you might get that, but we never have... Ever.

Posted Image
This was before you ever even nerfed, Julian. That's a picture of myself and imaseoulman. I used a singled Titan hooked up to a backpack. Of course, I wasn't allowed to use it after that day, but at that point in time there were no blaster restrictions. We also had pump plugged Big blasts at one point, which are just as worse.

EDIT:
There's a better one

Posted Image

Edited by Ryan201821, 26 October 2009 - 05:38 PM.

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#39 Ice Nine

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

Oh, and Zeke, its Nerf... Calling them "Man Cannons" would be like me calling my neck beard or gaming PC a "Chick Magnet". Just throwin that out there.


Julian, are you saying that your neckbeard doesn't get you mad amounts of poon?

Yes, the Man Cannons are the turreted Lanard shotguns that Zorn and I dicked around with. They're very fun.

Those two sentences were the only two real reasons behind this post, but I'm going to say another thing.

There are two Nerf guns I wouldn't allow: Proper plugged singled 4B with good dart/barrel; Proper plugged singled Titan with good dart/barrel. There are one to three others I could list here, but I won't. Everything else is fine with me, and I'm perfectly content using my +bow or similar guns.

Pumped replaced 4Bs (and now Berserkers) are cheap, powerful, easy to make, and all-around useful Nerf guns that I would never want to ban for fear of alienating a new wave of Nerfers looking for a cheap, powerful starter primary.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

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#40 chefdave

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:45 PM

My view is simple, if they cause injury or discourage people from playing they should not be allowed.
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#41 BustaNinja

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 05:47 PM

Sadly, it takes the leather jacket and stunningly good hair to get all the poon. The neck beard nets anti-poon, and swamp donkeys.

Oh, I didn't realize Zorn had actually done research. Then again, I'm still reasonably sure he didn't.

Either way, Titans are Bad, Big Blasts are just slightly smaller airguns, and bitching about guns will never solve anything. Everyone will always want to use their "Poon-diddle Fuck-cannon McDigglet", and when they don't, they will bitch about it.

And I mean really. If they need said uber diddle gun, are they really that great of a Nerfer, thus a real threat?

Daniel Beaver tears shit up with two nitefinders. That one guy's dad diddled with a blow gun. Making these massively powerful guns won't make you awesome.

So all you annoying kids need to GTFO of your parents basement and fling some foam.
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#42 Draconis

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 07:10 PM

Micros -1 point.
Megas -2 points.
Arrows/Missiles -3 points.
Ballistic Balls -5 points.

This has been really the only idea I've seen different from anything that we (Midwest group) have already proposed, but their still is a problem with this system. If I'm wielding one of these unfair blasters, you won't be able to come 100' of me before I launch off 5-10 shots.

And then inevitably, someone will make a blaster that shoots these larger projectiles, as far as micros, or at least close.


I'm surprised you think I haven't already done this. :P At least with balls. Arrows and missiles DO have a limitation of barrel length and air pressure, or they are destroyed. The best I've been able to do without exploding the arrows is about 70-75 feet. Stock 5 gram Nerf/ERTL/Buzzbee/Lanard balls also have a limitation of around 75 feet. 12 gram golf balls, not so much.
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#43 white moonlight

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 07:48 PM

If the gun is able to cause legitament noticable injury aside from welts then I would consider it unfair.
Like if the gun breaks skin it should be banned, I do not howver think ANY guns should be ban for being, "to good."
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#44 SonReeceSonJensen

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:32 PM

I see change already coming.

I have been nerfing not quite a year and I have had general guidelines for excessive blaster strength and war dickitry pounded into my brain since day one. I also read almost every thread, this helps. A LITTLE credit to a new generation please.

Nerf is not dead. Just sayiní.

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The Difference:
-Guns shoot bullets that kill people
-Blasters shoot darts that tag people

I do not play with guns.

#45 Fome

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:45 PM

I'm confused here, why is the hopper clip so much more superior to the RSCB or inline clip?

Guns that hurt people or cause physical pain should be restricted, that much is obvious.
Guns that OMGdominate because they have a good ROF and range should not be. At least at first.

There's an enormous amount of things you can do to a nerf gun to make it good according to your own playing style. There's no reason the people with enough resourcefulness, skill, and dedication shouldn't be able to play with their creations just because some lazy ass shows up with a stock nitefinder.

#46 Ice Nine

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Posted 26 October 2009 - 09:50 PM

I'm confused here, why is the hopper clip so much more superior to the RSCB or inline clip?


Hopper clips boast the same rate of fire as RSCBs or inlines, don't jam, don't double fire, and shoot basically the same range as if the gun was singled. They are also easier to reload, although I think that's just because the torque applied to a ball valve on a hopper clip does less to the setup than the torque on an RSCB's ball valve.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#47 wohnson89

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 06:14 PM

I have only red the first page of this topic but from what i can tell its all up the person who hosts the games. I honestly think back to somthing that my grandad told me, "what don't kill you only makes you stronger, and when somthing does kill you then you are out of luck." and well that makes me think that what does not draw blood should be legal for at least a round or two, but afterwards if it get to be anoying well just use another gun. Oh on a side note if somone can make a recon shoot 120+ feet by golly they deserve to use that thing.
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#48 Mr BadWrench

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 07:05 PM

Can I ask how much those WYEs cost? I can get them locally but they are $3ea.
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#49 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 08:09 PM

I got them from FlexPVC for $0.99 each.There is a shipping cost associated, however, so it may be worth just buying it locally.
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#50 Jedijoe9

Jedijoe9

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 11:08 PM

It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. Blasters become too powerful when everyone stops having fun and nerf wars turn into ridiculous standoffs. I haven't been too active on the war front since early summer, but even at that point we were beginning to run into the "people taking potshots at 90 feet" kind of gameplay.
Since then things on NH definitely have a sort of vibe of an "arms race"as you put it.

It seems that there has been a bit of a nerf paradigm shift, but perhaps not in modification only. Just the fact that I'm beginning to notice more talk about teams dominating wars has me thinking that the general attitude has changed too. The old style of "I don't care who is on my team, I want to nerf" seems to be replaced with "how many +bows can we stack on this team?" I don't think we can really employ any of the "fixes" that have been mentioned because people are going to resist changes that invalidate what blasters/darts they use now. I'm not sure that there is much we can do to combat all this besides encouraging attitudes and behaviors that shift gameplay back towards an emphasis on goofy foam flinging fun.

I've been helping moderate the Ohio University HVZ game (which is going on right now) and we're encountering some of the same kind of attitudes. People are hellbent on winning and will do anything they can to stack it in their favor. I wonder if this whole issue is more about a cultural shift than anything specific to nerf, but that question is way beyond the scope of this particular discussion.

Personally, I think I'm done with my +bow. Much like Dizzy, I'd like to test out my stinging scarab or spend a few rounds reacquainting myself with my powerclip.
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"If you watch jaws backwards it's about a huge shark that throws up so many people that they need to open a beach."

I nerf like a four year old.


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