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Restrictor removal

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#51 Carbon

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 11:05 AM

Would the heavier weights on the CDTS's fix the "fishtailing" problem that I, and presumably others, have been having? I've talked with a few friends who I thought would know better than I and have gotten mixed thoughts, some say more weight at the front, others say more at the back.

Physics Time! The fishtailing that you notice is the result of a stable front-point, on the dart, combined with an unstable and irregularly shaped length trailing behind it.

Basically, the weighted front-end of the dart wants to remain in a single projected line, due to a strong moment of inertia. However, the length of foam behind it doesn't have the mass to affect a suitably strong inertia. As such, the passage of air over the foam causes the body of the dart to spin and move. Since the front end of the dart is set into a ballistic path, the weighted front-point acts as a fulcrum for the lever that the rest of the dart has become. The tail of the dart then flails as far as it can from the fulcrum point until the forces acting upon it change and cause it to move in another direction.

And that's fishtailing!

Additional physics describing fishtailing:

Fishtailing is also a symptom of having a too-short barrel. In the Longshot, it's reasonable that removing restrictors could cause fishtailing, as there's now extra power in the same length barrel. Fishtailing can begin because there is additional pressure that needs to be vented before the dart leaves the barrel. Optimum circumstances are that the barrel pressure is equalized when the dart leaves the barrel. However, if there is still high pressure, there will be a puff of air behind the dart as it leaves the barrel. This will cause the light rear end of the dart to sway to the side. The heavier tip will be unaffected, and will continue to pull in a straight line, causing the rear to wobble back and forth until equillibrium is reached and the wobble stops.

The usual cure to fishtailing is well made darts, but also either a longer barrel, or venting before the end to allow extra pressure to bleed off.
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#52 pat 1st Lt

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 11:47 AM

Also, the longer your darts, the more chance of fish-tailing. As Death said, the weight acts as a fulcrum, while the length of the dart is the lever. The longer that lever (The longer your dart) the more exagerated the fish-tailing will be, and the less likely it will self-correct.

As Carbon said: either a longer barrel so the pressures have more of a chance to equalize, or venting.

This means that to solve this problem for the LongShot, you either have to decrease it's air out-put, or find a way of increasing the barrel length (Which, as I'm told, looks to be difficult).



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#53 Devious

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 01:54 PM

I vote the LS as the new Xbow...

I took it apart, killed the restrictors, removed the pegs, plugged all the little holes in it, made some stefans that were converted stock darts (3/0 round fishing weights)

The darts fishtail with the pistol off, and average around 70' with it on, accuracy is GREATLY improved, if i felt like adding a new spring i have no doubts on 100+', i'll prolly end up rebarreling mine but i like the stock look
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#54 Ronster

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 06:31 PM

Anyone tried a longer barrel replacement to revise the fishtailing?
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#55 Dragonteuthis

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Posted 02 August 2006 - 09:32 PM

Fishtailing could also be solved by

1) Rifling the barrel. Probably not possible with Nerf.

2) Adding stabilizer fins to the darts. While this one is theoretically possible with homemades (and frankly, I think it'd be kinda cool), it'd probably be prohibitively work-intensive to make proper fins.

Oh well.
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#56 Death

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 09:44 AM

1) Rifling the barrel. Probably not possible with Nerf.

Almost certainly impossible due to the non-uniformity of Nerf darts. Even with a homogenous ammo selection, the curvature of the dart and irregularity of the pits in the foam would cause rifling to be unpredictable and more harmful to our ballistics than helpful.

2) Adding stabilizer fins to the darts. While this one is theoretically possible with homemades (and frankly, I think it'd be kinda cool), it'd probably be prohibitively work-intensive to make proper fins.

Nerf darts work best when the foam is flush against the bore of the barrel, allowing for an adequate pressure build-up behind the dart. Fleching the darts would cause them to be either too large for the barrel, or else it would allow for a loss of pressure behind the dart.

Using a heavier foam or more evenly distributing the weight along the dart's length, combined with a lengthened barrel on the gun will prove to be the easiest and most effective ways of eliminating the fishtailing on the dart.



On a different note, has anyone else had minor difficulty with the magazine loader after adding a Big Bad Bow spring? I find that my clips require a little bit of jiggling before correctly locking in place and lining up with the rest of the dart-loader assembly. Once the clip is secured, subsequent firing goes off without a hitch, but initially loading the magazine is taking longer than I'd like.
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#57 sam

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:09 AM

I had that problem with mine, and mine is unmodded, but now its better. I think after you switch clips a few times it will be easier to changhe clips.
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#58 pat 1st Lt

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:55 AM

Using a heavier foam or more evenly distributing the weight along the dart's length, combined with a lengthened barrel on the gun will prove to be the easiest and most effective ways of eliminating the fishtailing on the dart.



Do you see any way in which we might be able to attach a new barrel? It seems like it would be rather difficult to do... Would 1/2" Brass fit in the stock barrel thing? Because 1/2" brass fits CDTS's snuggly, and the O.D. isn't very large. Perhaps if we could fit 1/2" brass in the stock barrel (Not the stupid 'extended' barrel like on the DoubleShot. I mean the barrel that actually holds the dart defore it's fired.), then we could extend the 1/2" beyond the stock barrel, and attach 17/32" brass after that. That wouldn't require much modification to do.


Do you think that might work?



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#59 Devious

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:37 AM

i'm actually in the process of brassing mine...

if you remove the stock barrel about 1/4" in front of that "Nub" that stops the dart from going into the barrel while the bolt slides forward, you can rig about 12" of 9/16ths brass from that piece of barrel, out over the pistol

This gives you a much better barrel, and better range once restrictors are gone

The only drawback is that you cant remove the front pistol (It's the barrel support), not like you'll care once you rebarrel it as well

Range is about 80' flat with converted stock darts, and the long barrel keeps them from fishtailing

And i'll get a pic as soon as i can get my cam working, the driver for it is corrupted

Edited by Devious, 03 August 2006 - 11:39 AM.

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#60 AODL

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:53 AM

80 feet... add 2 O-rings to the plunger...and a BBB spring...I have a very good feeling this thing will get over 100 feet! As far as I can tell you are the first one to replace the barrel, Congratulations! This just may be known as the greatest nerf gun of all time! Now it's got it all! Range, Accuracy, Great RoF, Looks, everything!
Great Job again!
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#61 Devious

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 12:28 PM

i did, i plugged all holes on the bolt, killed the restrictors, added an o-ring to the bolt seal area, added one to the plunger, did a very basic restrictor removal to the pistol (needs a barrel, maybe 4" or so of 17/32?) and added the barrel to the main gun, it uses the dead-air space over the pistol as a stabilizer

I will vouch for the greatest gun yet award, it replaces my maxshot as my primary of choice

I'm working on the pistol now, i wonder if i can rig a trigger to it without using it's handle, allowing a more streamline look and better use of the (Rather gimmicky) bipod
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#62 pat 1st Lt

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:25 PM

i did, i plugged all holes on the bolt, killed the restrictors, added an o-ring to the bolt seal area, added one to the plunger, did a very basic restrictor removal to the pistol (needs a barrel, maybe 4" or so of 17/32?) and added the barrel to the main gun, it uses the dead-air space over the pistol as a stabilizer


How's that working out? From what I've heard, it doesn't seem like an o-ring would do much good there. Also, how did you get it to stay on? Could you maybe take a picture, because I'm not sure I understand where you put it.



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#63 AODL

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 05:33 PM

Is there anyway I can pick up a spring of the same size and gauge as a BBB spring at some hardware store somewhere?
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#64 Devious

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 06:25 PM

How's that working out? From what I've heard, it doesn't seem like an o-ring would do much good there. Also, how did you get it to stay on? Could you maybe take a picture, because I'm not sure I understand where you put it.



Sincereley,
Pat


if you look in the jam clearing door, or in the clip area with the bolt half-closed, that round tube the dart goes in has an o-ring around it, doesnt make any difference really, i removed it, no change in ranges, if the bolt isnt all the way forward theres a tiny tiny gap there between it and the back of the barrel, but it makes no difference really
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#65 Famine

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:53 PM

if you remove the stock barrel about 1/4" in front of that "Nub" that stops the dart from going into the barrel while the bolt slides forward, you can rig about 12" of 9/16ths brass from that piece of barrel, out over the pistol

This gives you a much better barrel, and better range once restrictors are gone

The only drawback is that you cant remove the front pistol (It's the barrel support), not like you'll care once you rebarrel it as well


Hey Devious, rather than removing the stock barrel after the nub, do you think it would have been possible to just route out the existing barrel with a bradpoint drill bit and then slide the 9/16" brass inside of the stock?

If I'm understanding what you did correctly then that would avoid having to use the second gun as a stabilizer.

Also, and this is kind of a general question to anyone with a LS: I see some pictures with the sidearm handle on, some with it off. Is it designed so that you can slide it on or off at will? I didn't see any kind of release button or anything in the pics.
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#66 Devious

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Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:48 PM

Hey Devious, rather than removing the stock barrel after the nub, do you think it would have been possible to just route out the existing barrel with a bradpoint drill bit and then slide the 9/16" brass inside of the stock?

If I'm understanding what you did correctly then that would avoid having to use the second gun as a stabilizer.

Also, and this is kind of a general question to anyone with a LS: I see some pictures with the sidearm handle on, some with it off. Is it designed so that you can slide it on or off at will? I didn't see any kind of release button or anything in the pics.


Famine, the distance between the bit where the nub is, and the start of the main barrel is about 1 inch, then theres the barrel past the first holding notch which is about 5-6 inches in length, if you have a long enough bit or possibly a dowel rod with sandpaper glued on it (testing this myself B) ) you could hollow out the length of barrel enough for brass, it's fairly thick so theres not a lot of problems with that

I'll try it on a second LS

And the front pistols handle just snaps on, i have mine off ATM because i'm trying to make a trigger like the cocking mech, so that i can hold it more comfortably and still be able to fire the pistol, 1/2" CPVC works wonders on it...
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#67 Steveep

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:14 PM

Has anyone considered that this gun may outdate most of our older nerf guns? Muzzleloading nerf guns may now become a disadvantage to the user, meaning all of our Xbows, BBB's, and LBB's that dominated nerf wars will be decomissioned. Until Nerf makes another gun comparable to the LS, I foresee a period where everyone uses the same gun, making nerf wars a little less exciting. Already, half the people I nerf with have LS's and are swearing by them. Weapon variation is half the spice of nerf wars. Different weapons force people to use different strategies to counter their weaknesses. Single shot weapons offset their lack of ROF with range, now that is no longer an issue. The LS has it all, how will older guns compete with it? I have already tried competing with the LS using a BBB, and found that it was almost impossible.

Does anyone else see this potential problem, or am I just insane? :wacko:
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#68 Kuhlschrank

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:34 PM

Has anyone considered that this gun may outdate most of our older nerf guns? Muzzleloading nerf guns may now become a disadvantage to the user, meaning all of our Xbows, BBB's, and LBB's that dominated nerf wars will be decomissioned. Until Nerf makes another gun comparable to the LS, I foresee a period where everyone uses the same gun, making nerf wars a little less exciting. Already, half the people I nerf with have LS's and are swearing by them. Weapon variation is half the spice of nerf wars. Different weapons force people to use different strategies to counter their weaknesses. Single shot weapons offset their lack of ROF with range, now that is no longer an issue. The LS has it all, how will older guns compete with it? I have already tried competing with the LS using a BBB, and found that it was almost impossible.

Does anyone else see this potential problem, or am I just insane? :wacko:


Nah you're just insane, If anything, I think the short range, high RoF guns would lose prestige, because now they lose their advantage that our old xbows and bbbs couldn't touch. At least with the spring guns like the crossbow and maxshot, their RoF isn't gonna be that much of a hinderance, because it doesnt take as much time to reload one of those as say a single barreled airtech. In terms of wars, it will actually help the game by forcing more cooperation among low RoF nerfers so that they dont fire and then get caught with their pants down. All I see is a drop off of high RoF, short range guns, because they have just lost the Rate of Fire advantage that they've always enjoyed.

Edited by Kuhlschrank, 04 August 2006 - 12:34 PM.

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#69 sam

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:37 PM

Steveep: Well for those that have not found a primary, they may use to this, but many of people have already chosen a primary, and a very comfortable with it. I think that it is more about being comfortable with a gun and knowing how to use it. As long as you have at least a decent rate of fire, like you would get with a coupler mod, you should stand a chance. You have to use the the advantages of your gun. So with your BBB, assuming it is similar to other modded BBBs, you have a decent rate of fire, and it's accurate at around 70' so you'll just have to get a little closer and be "on" with your shots.
Kuhlschrank: I agree

Edited by sam, 04 August 2006 - 12:39 PM.

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#70 Famine

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:42 PM

Has anyone considered that this gun may outdate most of our older nerf guns? Muzzleloading nerf guns may now become a disadvantage to the user, meaning all of our Xbows, BBB's, and LBB's that dominated nerf wars will be decomissioned. Until Nerf makes another gun comparable to the LS, I foresee a period where everyone uses the same gun, making nerf wars a little less exciting. Already, half the people I nerf with have LS's and are swearing by them. Weapon variation is half the spice of nerf wars. Different weapons force people to use different strategies to counter their weaknesses. Single shot weapons offset their lack of ROF with range, now that is no longer an issue. The LS has it all, how will older guns compete with it? I have already tried competing with the LS using a BBB, and found that it was almost impossible.

Does anyone else see this potential problem, or am I just insane? :wacko:


The situation isn't unprecedented. It's always been up to us to guard our sport from stagnation.

That being said, I'm sure as hell using a Longshot. You're fucked.
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#71 meiser5

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:26 PM

How do you make CDTS's? Is that what Carrtoon meantioned earlier, about ripping off the rubber collar and velcro, adding 3 bb's and hot glue?


Whoever does not know what Cartoon or Pat are talking about when they mention the converted stephans, here is what they look like....


Posted Image


Here is what they look like compared to regular taggers....


Posted Image


Meanwhile as you can see, regular stephans are to short to fit in the clip....




Posted Image


I hope this clears some things up.


Meiser--- :wacko:

Edited by meiser5, 04 August 2006 - 01:28 PM.

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#72 sam

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 01:53 PM

Well, your actually suppose to use weights. Maybe you did, but it doesn't like like it in the picture
here is Falcon's write up on how to make them:
For all of you who are having issues with any of the following:

I hear complaints about foam being too soft, not being straight, shrinking and/or expanding upon heating, and not having flat ends when cut.

THERE IS STILL HOPE!

Granted, this solution to your problems isn't exactly the most inexpensive, but it is done with nothing but THE most accessible materials around right now.

And yes, it works. REALLY well. These are the darts I use.

You'll need a pack of 1/4" slingshot weights (or whatever you use for weights, but trust me, these things are killer weights for darts). They're at Wal-Mart, Sport Chalet...just about anywhere that has a sports section that sells slingshots/BB guns/Paintball guns, etc., in 200-250 piece boxes.

Next, of course, some low-temp hot glue. DO NOT use Hi-temp; your foam will be toast.

Lastly, get some dart tag refill packs.

Get a pair of scissors. Gently squeeze the dart between your fingers near the base of the stock tip to find out where the rubber inside the dart ends, and just snip the tip off underneath this rubber. That should take all of a second or less.

Drop the tip in a trash can, add the foam blank to your pile.

To actually make the blank-to-dart conversion, make sure your lo-temp gun's ready. To avoid angled tips, I use the back end of the stock darts for the tip of my stefans. The end I cut the stock tip off of becomes the back of the dart.

Stick the tip of your lo-temp glue gun into the hold on the flat end. Twist it around a little bit. This is NOT to make a gaping maw out of the hole in the dart. It is merely to expand the size of the hole a little bit.

Now, squeeze some glue down into this same end of the dart. The glue will go down and catch on the walls of the inside of the hollow foam, and will quickly plug it up. Fill this space that now has been plugged until the glue is almost to the top edge of the foam. The hot glue plug you ahve made should NOT fill the entire length of the dart. Only about 1/4 of the dart will have glue in it. This hapens naturally, so don't worry about being precise.

Now, take your slingshot weight, and push it down into the hole. The top of the weight should be flush or just above flush with the top of the foam. Notice how the weight is a perfect fit for the stock hole in the dart since you slightly expanded it at the beginning with the tip of your glue gun.

Now pick up your glue gun and squeeze some glue DIRECTLY onto the top of the weight. It doesn't look prety now, but hang tight.

This small misshappen mound of glue is all that you need. Drop the hot glue gun (ok, set it down nicely on your workbench) and stick the index finger of your free hand into your mouth. Don't be too slobbery, but make sure the pad of your finger is wet. Using the pad of your finger, press down on the top of the mound of glue, and use your finger to brush the glue down and around the weight. You can shape the dome with your finger without worrying about the glue sticking to your finger because your finger is a slick suyrface due to your licking it.
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#73 ompa

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 02:35 PM

Wait, so let me get this straight; nobody has modified their guns to properly shoot anything BUT converted stock darts?

Damn. Well, I guess I can delay buying one for only so long...

I really can't see how any other guns COULD compete with this from what I'm hearing. X-bow ranges and a ROF that's so much higher? The only hinderence seems to be the ammo type at the moment. And I know there's no way in hell everyone is going to switch to converted stock darts.

Oh, and has anyone's LS bursted into pieces from having TWO heavy springs in there? I mean, if it's causing problems in terms of clip loading, isn't anyone worried that the thing will just bust open like a Maxshot?

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#74 Ryan201821

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:00 PM

Oh, and has anyone's LS bursted into pieces from having TWO heavy springs in there? I mean, if it's causing problems in terms of clip loading, isn't anyone worried that the thing will just bust open like a Maxshot?


I just added a DT3 spring to my Longshot. It is pretty hard to cock but it works amazingly. I am not sure on what my plans are for trying to reinforce the thing. I don't see how I could. Oh well, for now, until is blows to pieces, it is a fricking awesome gun.

I am also using converted stock darts. They actually work better for me than regular stefans in other guns.

On another note, I just glued the clips together and it is so much easier than taking one clip out, and then taking the other out of the stock. Here is a pic.

Posted Image

Fits nicely and doesn't get in the way when actually holding the gun. In the middle is piece of a popsicle stick. All I used was hot glue and it stays together very well. This thing is like an XBow with amazing rate of fire. The only draw back to the gun is the ammo type as ompa said. Guess I have to make special darts for this gun.

Edited by Ryan201821, 04 August 2006 - 04:02 PM.

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#75 Steveep

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 04:35 PM

Thanks for the interesting comments to my earlier post. It is always good to hear the opposing side, and although I still think older guns will be at a serious disadvantage, I will probably continue to use my BBB as a primary, if for no other reason than the challenge it may soon present.

Back on topic, the problem with our normal stefans, I believe, is simply that they do not load correctly. The piece that prevents the dart from being pushed forward as the bolt moves forward drops out of the way before our short stefans are fully in the barrel. I'm working on a way to make the barrel longer, so that the stefan will be loaded correctly. Also, as with the Double Shot, the open "fake" portion of the barrel allows the shorter stefans to turn partially as they leave the gun, causing more friction inside the barrel, and more fishtailing after they leave the barrel. maybe a ever so slightly smaller barrel, or a way to breach the actual barrel to the fake barrel, so that they are airtight, making one long barrel, would be the most effective. Anyways, I'll be working on it.
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