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What works and what doesnt work...READ!

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#1 elf avec gun

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 06:09 PM

Hi.


So I myself have tried, used and thought up many different for trigger ideas and well not all of them have worked so great and some didn't even work at all :P. Today I was really bored so I decided to create a new topic inorder to compile a list of trigger ideas that you guys have thought up. I dont think this has been done before(I searched but didn't find one/ any)


So please post all tigger ideas that YOU yourself have configured or thought up. Please dont post Carbons clothspin trigger idea (unless you are Carbon) or anyone else's idea (other than your own) that you have seen posted before. Of course I understand that more than one person has thought up the same trigger idea as someone else before but if it has already been posted on here please dont repost it.

Ok so post your idea with a pic even if it a picture of a design scribbled on a napkin or part of a pen or a mspaint pic just so long as we have a visual reference; also in your post describe what the trigger is and how it is/ was supposed to work and state if it worked or didn't work.


Ok....GO!!!

**STICKIED BY PINEY** Get some ideas here before you start on your homemades.

Edited by Pineapple, 04 June 2007 - 01:29 PM.

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#2 Flaming Hilt

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 07:28 PM

"...So I myself have tried, used and thought up many different for trigger ideas..."

Uh-huh. Now since I've been working with you in your homemade career...

Anyways, both of these triggers are based off of Carbons clothespin trigger but add some kind of mechanics.

- - -


1st is something like "Carbon's extendable," it's the trigger system I used in catch and I haven't had to rebuild it yet.

Posted Image

EXCEPT that I ended up using a small piece of 1/2" brass instead of a sanded dowel. As long as you put the pivot point as far forward as possible, it works great.

2nd is the trigger I used on my Custom FAR; the gun itself failed but the trigger system was faithful.

- - -


Posted Image

Really for this one the only pic that's useful is in the lower right hand corner. I'm just too lazy to crop it. Anyways, it's a clothespin that uses fishing wire (goes around a nail as a pivot) to connect to the trigger. Fishing line is the only thing I could find that didn't stretch. I know you think normal string doesn't stretch... but... it does...

ALSO. PUMP GUN TRIGGERS TOO PLEASE!!! :P
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#3 Carbon

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 08:34 PM

Since I'm Carbon, I guess I get to post the original clothespin trigger.

This is the setup for a basic clothespin trigger:
Posted Image

And installed:
Posted Image

The clothespin provides both the pivot point for the trigger, as well as the return spring. The trigger is an angle iron, but any piece of metal would work. The firing pin is a roofing nail, but most any nail with a large head will work. I've started using larger nails because they're resistant to bending, have a smoother pull, and result in less wear on the catchface.

The disadvantage of this setup is that you have to place the trigger where the catchface is at full draw. Flaiming Hilt and davidbowie have engineered ways around that limitation. The advantage is that it's fast, easy, and has a very accurate pull for firing.
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#4 tcorr911

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 08:56 PM

For air guns you can use a solenoid valve or a ball valve or a hose handle.




Pics are in the homemades section, it shows all of them

Edited by tcorr911, 23 July 2006 - 08:58 PM.

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#5 St Jebus

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:05 PM

I find that hose handles and electric valves work the best. Ball valves are just too slow and although its only a few milliseconds of air leaking out before the dart launches, it can still lose a bunch of power.
Clothespin trigger designs seem to work fine, from my experience.
The gun I am making uses a hose handle, because they are so easy to adapt and are very trustworthy (if you get a good quality metal one and the right adaptor bits).
I have been designing a variation of clothespin trigger, but so far my designs either aren't very practical or don't get a good air seal. Bullpup nerf guns can be difficult...
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#6 Flaming Hilt

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 10:20 PM

Since I'm Carbon...


Sorry. That just made me laugh.

I meant homemade air valves, but I did forget about the hose handle so thanks for the reminder...
I guess, though, they are hard to engineer and the easiest fabrication has already been invented and cataloged.

So, when you say "a good quality metal [hose handle] and the right adaptor bits," can you give an example? Cost?
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#7 Doom

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 08:37 AM

Dr. Nerf's trigger system is just about as good as it gets for an air pressure system. Sure, it's not mine, but I helped him build it. Fast opening times combined with a lot of initial air translates into excellent range. Another unjustly forgotten system. Some concepts received more notice than this actual finished product.

As for something I actually made (two years ago), my moving barrel idea is the most unusual way to fire. You can either operate it with the handle on the top or the handle on the bottom (the bottom being like a pump). It's still the only system I know that advances the dart and fires in one motion. I've been working on upgrading this with a more efficient valve like the one Dr. Nerf used.
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#8 Sanityjr

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 08:49 AM

There is only one more that I can think of that opens extremely fast. The modded sprinkler valve. It isn't to hard to mod either. It's the best choice if you dont want to fabricate your own valve, but want great results in my opinion.

Edited by Sanityjr, 24 July 2006 - 08:50 AM.

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#9 Flaming Hilt

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 02:45 PM

"Dr. Nerf's trigger system..."

That link just shows the gun, but no details on the trigger system. Is there a topic with a better description of how he made it?

I have figured out how to make a homemade check valve for the end of pumps, so I think I may just reverse it and then attach a pull rod to the back.
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#10 Dr Nerf

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 04:43 PM

I am surprised that I never actually explained my system in full before. The links are to pictures of the parts that I am talking about.

The valve is a simple piston style valve. The chamber setup (second picture, this time solvent welded together) encases the piston. To get a seal, the piston has O-ring mounts at three places. The first set seal the main valve (the "trigger valve"). Since this valve has semi-automatic capabilties, the setup set is the shutoff valve (to conserve the air in the reservior). The third set is just there to make sure that air does not escape out the back of the gun.

When the piston is pulled back, air can then escape from the front out into the barrel and so on. However, only air from the chamber is released because the second set of seals prevents extra air from escaping. This diagram that I make should show exactly how the valve works.

Posted Image

The trigger system was just two bellcranks and some music wire (second picture). After the piston is inserted in to the back of the chamber, you hook on a piece of music wire (to connect to the trigger system) and put in a spring and cap (to push the piston forward). Cap the end with an end cap and the valve is ready.

I really like how my gun is really easy to work with and easy to repair. Unlike other homemade valve, this one is high flow and allows you to repair it easily (because you can remove the piston).

Edited by Dr. Nerf, 24 July 2006 - 06:28 PM.

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#11 footemps

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 06:56 PM

Dr. Nerf pretty much hit it right on the head for the best nerf semi auto valve design. I'd maybe add a return spring to improve trigger return and improve efficiency.
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#12 Doom

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 07:05 PM

The design has a return spring if you look at the pictures. :wacko:

One change I suggested to Dr. Nerf would be to use rubber sheeting as opposed to O-rings for these types of seals. There's a reason that's what they use in regular pull valves. Seals much more easily. About half the work is necessary!
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#13 Flaming Hilt

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 08:48 AM

Wow... Dr. Nerf... I applaud. I may have to make a variation of that.

The funny thing is, that's exactly what I was talking about doing but never really drew up plans for. A trigger system that's basically just a reversed check valve with a method of pulling on the check. It's... perfect.

Out of curiosity... and... for the purposes of my design (if you don't mind), what size o-ring did you use, and for what size PVC?
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#14 Gyrvalcon

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:31 AM

That system looks like it would be perfect for a nested-brass breech/ open bolt assembly. It could attatch right to the output, and the action of the bolt closing would also open the valve. This really makes me want to build a semi-auto.
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#15 Dr Nerf

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:31 AM

Out of curiosity... and... for the purposes of my design (if you don't mind), what size o-ring did you use, and for what size PVC?

I did some calculations based on what my digital caliber gave me (1.030" OD and .838" ID), and ideally you would want an O-ring with a 1" OD and 13/16" ID (for a 3/32" width). I think that Lowes was out of that kind when I was there buying the parts last year, so I settled for 15/16" OD and 3/4" ID, which still worked pretty well because it had the right width (3/32").

If you are going to use O-rings (instead of rubber sheeting), I would recommend that you should not include a middle divider on the mounts and just put a third or fourth O-ring there instead. It would be a lot less work and create a better seal.

The piston was made out of 1/2" schedule 40 PVC, and the PVC encasing the piston was 1". The chamber was made of 2". Due to the how this thing operates, you really need to measure and design things thoroughly. I remember that someone asked me why the piston doesn't just go straight through the gun even though it lacks a stopper. I responded that I designed it so that the return spring pushes the piston forward enough to create a seal yet not go to far.

Also remember to lubricate the piston well. Before I lubricated the one in my gun, it really could not move much at all. But I greased it up and it moved easily ever since.

That system looks like it would be perfect for a nested-brass breech/ open bolt assembly.

I designed the gun so that you can attach different barrel assemblies easily. So far though, I only have two, my crappy bolt-action one and my water balloon/small object barrel. With the right assembly, this thing is capable of full-semi auto (one pull of the trigger fires one dart and reloads another).
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#16 CaptainSlug

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Posted 06 June 2007 - 12:43 PM

I'm working on a design for a really cheap push-button valve. The emphasis being on the ability to obtain the needed parts from any place that sells pipe fittings and basic hardware. Only downside is that it has to be made with an elbow, so you can't use it inline like you can with a ball valve.
Posted Image
Will have more pictures once I get to the hardware store.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 06 June 2007 - 12:45 PM.

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#17 Shadow 92

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 01:36 PM

Hey Dr. Nerf, how does that valve compare to say a modded sprinkler valve or the valves and airtanks found in AT2Ks?
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#18 Jaffe

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 03:01 PM

The most simple trigger system for a plunger system is for my taste this whone <_< , this the desgin of my trigger system with the components for my next gun <_< .
Greetings from the dutch, Jaffe
Posted Image
PS: If you are yousing PVC fill if up with something hard, ore else cracks well apear from the power of the spring.

Edited by Jaffe, 28 June 2007 - 03:03 PM.

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#19 Carbon

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 03:20 PM

That design will be too difficult to use, especially with a strong spring. Look at the vectors of force:

Posted Image

The spring is delivering linear force. The firing pin is on a pivot. For part of its motion, it will have to press backwards against the strength of the plunger spring…not usable.

The easiest pin pull is when the vectors of force are perpendicular (i.e. a straight down pin pull).

Edited by Carbon, 28 June 2007 - 03:21 PM.

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#20 Prometheus

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Posted 03 July 2007 - 10:51 PM

Does seem impractical, even if you round off the upper edge, it still will push backwards...
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#21 Jaffe

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 05:32 AM

Last I had seen a picture of a hammer valve :huh: . It was very difficult to make(for the amateur :P ), so I begon drawing and now it's much much simpeler :lol: .
Greetings from the Dutch, Jaffe
Posted Image
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#22 Prometheus

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 07:10 PM

That would result in a trigger and grip located really far back on the gun. Which means a longer gun.
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#23 koolaidman43

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 02:02 PM

For carbon's clothespin trigger, where do you get plasic clothespins and what do you use for the actual trigger(that piece of metal at a 90 degree angle attached at the bottom of the pin)? and where do you get that piece of metal?
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#24 Guest_DarkInfection_*

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:57 PM

It's called an "Angle Iron"
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#25 Prometheus

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 07:13 PM

For carbon's clothespin trigger, where do you get plasic clothespins and what do you use for the actual trigger(that piece of metal at a 90 degree angle attached at the bottom of the pin)? and where do you get that piece of metal?


Use a thin piece of wire (but not too thin), and a small angle iron piece or an angle bracket cut down.
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