55 replies to this topic

[Ryan201821]

So I decided to officially range test multiple combinations of different weighted darts and blasters. I range tested all of these shots indoors on the approaches at the bowling alley. So all of these ranges include 5-10' dart skip. I also wanted to make a point to see which types of darts hurt more or cause more welts. All darts are made from Ace brand foam in 12" PETG (3k), 16" Polyester (+bow), 2.5" CPVC (Nitefinder). I shot them at the bowling alley from lane 3 to lane 30 where there is a wall. All the shots that went 150 hit that wall on a fly.

Range Tests

1/4" Slingshot - AT3K
135,140,150, 150, 150, 133, 142,148, 150, 130
-------------------
~142.8'

1/4" Slingshot - Plusbow
125, 150, 142, 135, 128, 138, 139, 123, 150, 144
--------------------
~137.4'

1/4" Slingshot - Nitefinder
62, 55, 60, 69, 55
---------
~60.2'

Copper BB - AT3K
117, 122, 132, 130, 121, 132, 118, 127, 124, 115
-------------
~123.8'

Copper BB - Plusbow
108, 113, 102, 117, 122, 130, 120, 116, 121, 105
--------------
~115.4'

Copper BB - Nitefinder
50, 52, 56, 53, 54
-------------
~53'

Washer + Felt Disc - AT3K
112, 113, 115, 117, 118, 115, 116, 111, 113, 119
---------------
~114.9'

Washer + Felt Disc - Plusbow
100, 100, 104, 105, 107, 109, 115, 109, 110, 103
----------------
~106.2'

Washer+ Felt Disc - Nitefinder
52, 50, 52, 44, 49
-------------
~49.'

Single BB - AT3K
60 (No idea), 108, 140 (WTF?), 109, 126, 115, 125, 111, 108, 130
------------
~110.5'

Single BB - Plusbow
68, 102, 106, 116, 123, 108, 113, 118, 122, 108
---------
~108.4'

Single BB - Nitefinder
40'
43'
46'
48'
44'
---------
~44.2'

Conclusions from range tests

This data turned out beautiful. The 3k and the Plusbow were pretty close in range for all different weights. The 3k seems to be just a bit more powerful than the Plusbow. From slingshot ammo to copper BB's, the 3k and the +bow lose roughly 20' in range. The Nitefinder only loses about 7' in range. The next furthest darts were Slug darts. Plusbows with good barrel/dart fit are now only hitting a little over 100'. Nitefinders only lose ~4' from copper BB's. Single BB's were very close to all the Slug darts. The Plusbow actually shot further with single BB's as opposed to Slug darts. Nitefinders lose another couple feet in range.

As you can see, the less the weight, dramatically effects the super higher powered blasters and makes them a lot safer. This way we wouldn't have to impose bans on blasters due to safety issues. One interesting thing in the data was the range results from the Slug darts. All of them seemed to land within a couple feet of each other. Probably because each dart is weighted exactly the same, where some darts may have more hot glue than others in a traditional stefan. But there are two more aspects of the darts other than just range. I wanted to see how much they hurt, and how accurate they were.

Pain factor

I was willing enough to let my co-worker shoot me from 50' away with the 3k and the Plusbow. We tested all four dart weights. I let him shoot me first with the slingshot weights to get it out of the way. Shots from both the 3k and Plusbow left nice welts on my back. I'd say they equally hurt the same, which is a great deal of pain. Then I let him shoot me with the copper BB's. Hurt almost just as much as the slingshot weights. I noticed a bigger decrease in pain from the 3k though, but it was still quite painful. These shots didn't leave welts, but made the skin very red. Next were Slug darts. Wow, what a difference. The felt tips and the flat surface instead of a hard dome, is much better. They still hurt from only 50' away, but they feel a lot better than having to be shot with a slingshot weight. I let him shoot me a few extra times with the felt discs and tried shooting against bare skin. Not to my surprise they didn't leave any welts from point blank ranges. Single BB darts had basically the same results although they were more damaging to skin compared to Slug darts. This is most likely due to the hot glue dome. A point blank shot left a welt on my arm.

Accuracy

1/4" Slingshot weights are just ridiculously accurate darts if you make them right. I don't think I need to go in detail there. Copper BB's were equally as accurate, but there were a couple shots that curved to the side. The BB's are so small, it's difficult to get the weight perfectly centered. Since slingshot weights are so large, they are easier to center in the foam, and usually are more accurate. Single BB darts had pretty much the same results as the Copper BB's. They are hard to get the weight centered and a few shots went in strange directions. Slug darts were the most accurate next to slingshot weights. Since they are effortless to make, they usually fly perfectly straight with ease. Even ones where the washer aren't perfectly centered fly straight.

Final thoughts and comments

Slug darts seem the way to go. They have so many upsides. They are cheap, easy to make, hurt significantly less that traditional hot glue stefans, and only get ranges similar to a single BB weighted dart. If people didn't have the materials, or couldn't get the supplies for making Slug darts, I think single BB darts should be also allowed. And obviously we would still allow stock darts. Basically banning slingshot weights, and copper BB's. I'm not sure why copper BB's shoot so much further. I thought to believe they were the same weight as single BBs, but I believe these might be the heavier variants of copper BB's that weigh 0.45g as opposed to 0.33 grams a steel BB weighs. Although I'm not entirely sure. These BB's were jacked from someone else's darts from my community bucket. But the copper weighted darts definitely out ranged Slug darts and steel BBs. Slingshot weights are something around 1.2 or 1.3 grams I believe.

This also proves that lowered powered blasters become more effective with lighter darts. High powered blasters are losing 30-40' off of their max range, while pistols are losing 10'.

=============================
I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.

Edited by Ryan201821, 18 November 2009 - 02:24 PM.

[NerfRogue83]

Well, I will be the first to say "Thanks" for putting in the work, and coming up with some really solid data. As I have several events planned in the coming months, this will help, and will certainly weigh heavily on my mind. Instead of keeping a heated arguement on the power/banning of certain blasters, you have givin compelling evidence for their continued safe use. So again, Thanks Mr. Mcnumbers.---Rogue.

[Ryan201821]

I just want to point out to the community that slingshot darts are basically too dangerous for sake of fellow nerfers. Plus there is no reason we need to shoot each other from beyond 100'. I suggest everyone institutes the same ban, that way we don't have to ban blasters which is lamesauce.

[k9turrent]

I still believe that none of the Canadians will ban ammo types. I understand "sn|ping" can take away the fun for some people, but I rather face some that is going to try and shoot me at 120' than some else that will actually wait until I get closer.

[Galaxy613]

Are you suggesting that if we use Slug/SBB (Single BB) darts that Singled Titans should be allowed? That would make since because there were at least 3 chimeras at Apoc and no one questioned it. If we choose to ban Slingshot weights it won't effect me, SBB darts have always been more effective for me. My last batch I was making for DCNO were SBB's.

[Ryan201821]

Are you suggesting that if we use Slug/SBB (Single BB) darts that Singled Titans should be allowed? That would make since because there were at least 3 chimeras at Apoc and no one questioned it. If we choose to ban Slingshot weights it won't effect me, SBB darts have always been more effective for me. My last batch I was making for DCNO were SBB's.

Maybe. I would try doing some range tests with one and see what they get with Slug/SBB darts. Although I don't know why you'd use a singled Titan.

If you're seeing a significant difference between copper and steel BBs, that should probably be investigated further before any conclusions are reached in that regard.

Yes, the metal copper is about 10% heavier than typical steel. But that should not be relevant. As far as I have ever been aware, "copper" BBs are merely copper plated. Probably less than half of one perent of the metal is copper. Check for yourself with a magnet. Or a simple pair of pliers - if you can't flatten it, it's probably not copper. Or weigh 100 of them against each other.

Bob I agree with you here. I didn't have any weights so I gypped them from the community dart bucket. I wouldn't be totally opposed to letting someone use a single copper BB. Both the the copper and steel BBs were exactly the same size, although the copper BBs aren't attracted to the magnet. I was focusing more on showing the slingshot weights are too heavy, and more than twice the weight than a copper BB, SBB, or Slug dart. But yeah, that data could probably be redone.

Edited by Ryan201821, 18 November 2009 - 03:40 PM.

[Fome]

God I love seeing people providing actual, hard data to back up their claims.

"This also proves that lowered powered blasters become more effective with lighter darts. High powered blasters are losing 30-40' off of their max range, while pistols are losing 10'."

I agree with this 100%, in fact I think this point should be stressed. When I first started modding I had a recon and a nitefinder, two obviously low-powered blasters. The first batch of stefans I made used slingshot ammo and it performed horribly, taking a downward dive as soon as it exited the barrel. I then used only hot glue as weight (too light) and then finally picked up a box of 3,000 BBs. The performance difference with the BBs was amazing on near-stock blasters, completely out performing taggers and streamlines.

Using super heavy weights not only makes the more powerful blasters shoot farther, but makes the less powerful blasters shoot less. That seems stupid to me.

[rork]

Thank you for this, Ryan. I have always used slug darts, and honestly, it's hard for me to fathom using anything else. At our DCNO makeup mini-war, we all used slug darts. At one point, Ben and I turned a corner and unloaded on each other with Big Blasts from about 8-10'. It stung, but we were laughing about it, and nothing worse than redness resulted. By comparison, the worst series of welts (and bruising, and bleeding...) I've ever seen were the result of close shots from 2ks and 1500s, using small-diameter, slingshot-weighted stefans. The fact of the matter is that with the fantastic guns that are in common use these days, heavy darts are just not necessary.

[BustaNinja]

Fuck yeah for the Scientific Method.

Awesome data. I am not at all surprised with your results.

Ok, now to make a McMaster order for some felt disks and washers.

Also, something I have noticed, is Slug darts are also super accurate. I mean, they aren't the end all mass awesome bullet that will take down a bear at 5000 feet, but they do shoot pretty well. They leave alot up to skill, and chance, which is how Nerf should be.

Awesome study Ryan. Why we love you.

Edited by BustaNinja, 18 November 2009 - 06:34 PM.

[Fredo]

Well I'm pretty sure you just gave McMaster a huge sales increase in felt discs and washers. Well anyway, its nice to see that somebody gave us some legit data on this. Nice work.

[Zack the Mack]

I don't think Nerfers will voluntarily cripple their dart speed - personally, I take enemies out at very long ranges. I'm also not a fan of Slug darts - I find that they fall apart, don't feed well in RSCB's, and scratch the insides of my barrels.

Regardless, it might be a good idea to increase your sample size and provide standard deviation, etc. so we can drag some more insights out of this.

On another note, we really need a standard test for accuracy.

[Ice Nine]

Anyways, Ryan, I'm sure you saw my reply to your post on the Ning. No need to repeat it here.

1.) I don't think Nerfers will voluntarily cripple their dart speed - personally, I take enemies out at very long ranges.

2.) I'm also not a fan of Slug darts - I find that they fall apart, don't feed well in RSCB's, and scratch the insides of my barrels.

3.) Regardless, it might be a good idea to increase your sample size and provide standard deviation, etc. so we can drag some more insights out of this.

4.) On another note, we really need a standard test for accuracy.

1.) Congratulations on your tactical abilities there. You might've read a thread where there was a little bit of complaining about that sort of behavior.

2.) Clearly you aren't making them right. I used an RSCB +bow for three wars (including Armageddon) with Slug darts, in which I retained the majority of the darts I made and had fewer than ten total misfires. As for the scratching of the barrels, that's a pretty good indicator of shitty dartsmithing.

3.) I really don't think that's necessary. Ryan and I made over two thousand darts for Chanos 2.5, 3, and CB4. They are consistent and certainly give a good indication of the potential of a gun. Increasing sample size just makes the test way more tedious than it has to be, and standard deviation won't mean shit when interpreting these ranges. The standard deviation for the current smallish samples are pretty unsurprising, and the few weird outliers can be explained by massive air power behind insignificantly weighted darts. Try shooting stock streamlines out of a +bow sometime.

4.) No, we really don't.

Edited by Ice Nine, 18 November 2009 - 08:00 PM.

[Snake51886]

I wholeheartedly agree with Ryan and Ice9. The bb darts in the bucket might have been from my extremely old ones or Bobbo's. I use the Copperhead BB brand, with the Snake on the package and I believe he does as well.

The CS darts are the easiest to make, since no centered hole is needed and whatnot, but that's been prettymuch stated. If you're having trouble with the felt heads on the CS Darts, buy the GREEN felt discs and kiss the felt with a flame, it works wonders!

[TantumBull]

If you're having trouble with the felt heads on the CS Darts, buy the GREEN felt discs and kiss the felt with a flame, it works wonders!

That will prevent them from turning into cotton balls? Awesome, thanks! Gonna go get me some green tips.

Oh, and yeah, slug stefans are really the way to go. Easy to make and don't take very long.

[VACC]

While the results of this study are not really news to me, or Ryan either I expect, having them spelled out in plain facts might do a good deal towards convincing the rest of the community. I have used nothing but slug darts since I first got my hands on a sample at Apoc '07. In fact, the only darts I've ever made to chamber in my plusbow use felt/washers and I've seen no reason to change that. Perhaps that is why I've always scratched my head at the claims that plusbows were too powerful or dangerous, as mine has always fired between 100' and 115'.

Not only are slug darts a good way to make sure your sidearms and primarys both fire at acceptible rates, but, as has been said, their inately even weighting makes them fly as straight as any dart you could make, and they're so damn easy to manufacture en masse.

Now for Felt/Washer Mega Darts.

VACC

[CaptainSlug]

If you're having trouble with the felt heads on the CS Darts, buy the GREEN felt discs and kiss the felt with a flame, it works wonders!

Applying a light coat of spray vinyl dye while the dots are still on the roll also works very well to prevent the felt from fraying.
Doing so also allows you to color your felt for easier identification.

Now for Felt/Washer Mega Darts.

Unfortunately the felt discs do not come in 5/8" diameter.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 19 November 2009 - 03:32 PM.

[Draconis]

I think the only real complaint I've seen anyone have about Slug darts is durability. The extra cost associated with the felt, along with the limited number of firings seems like a bit of an obstacle, when the original intent of stefans was to reduce the cost of darts. With the 100 pack of streamlines at $30, that naturally equates to $0.30 each. Slug darts from McMaster-Carr equate to about $30 (plus shippingof $5-$10) for 500 darts. Certainly less expensive, but if you can only fire them twice or three times before the tip falls off, then how much cheaper are they really?


Also Ryan, I'm very insulted that you chose not to include the obvious choice in safe darts designs:

[Split]

As many of you guys know, I've been doing tests like these quite a bit... While this thread is definitely a step in the right direction to limiting the energy outputs, we should keep in mind that these ranges are dependent on many more things than just weight (though weight is, like I've mentioned, a primary factor in many regards, and the most easily manipulated).

Namely, the aerodynamics of the dart come heavily into play when you switch from hot glue domes to slug-style tips (again, more-so on high power blasters).

I'd just like to know what dart lengths you used. I find that (yet again, on long range blasters (i.e. your +bow and 3k in your tests)), you can gain 15-20 feet just dropping from 2" to .5" darts (this difference comes mainly from a large decrease in drag over a long distance). For the same reason you get a range drop when switching to Megas.

Other than that, like everyone else said, nice work.

[z80]

Ban slingshot ammo? What are you, insane? I see what you're trying to do, but instituting a hard to police rule just because guns are shooting too far is a bit ridiculous. Also, I would make slug darts if they didn't fall apart like motherfuckers. Like every game I've been to, I'll pick up slug darts, and the foam will have fallen off, making it impossible for me to use. I really don't like that. So I just try to avoid them all together.
Also, if you're worry about people getting hurt, you really need to stop worrying about dart weights, and worry about dart quality. That's where I've seen many dangerous situations and darts. People who think they can crank out shitty darts and fire them through airguns. The darts fracture and shit hits the fan. In that respect, slingshot ammo reduces problems, as its one central weight, rather than kids daisy chaining BB's or other weights, creating dangerous uneven weights with little surface area to the foam.
Also, feel free to correct me, but I don't beleive there are any slug CDTD's, while slingshot ammo are perfect weights.
Also, can we get some weights for the tips and such? I would be curious to see the distances between a slug dart and a traditional stefan with the same weights.

Edited by z80, 19 November 2009 - 01:41 PM.

[Ryan201821]

Split, that is a good thing to add, which I left out. All my darts are roughly 1-1.2" in length with the tip.

I'm also curious to see how the ranges of Slug darts are effected if there is a slingshot weight in addition to the washer and felt disc. But honestly, I think it's a little overkill. We (Midwest) instituted this ban on slingshot ammo because the majority of our war participants have blasters than shoot well over 100'. I'm not making a hard rule for everyone, just a suggestion. This is just another option to banning a bunch of blasters, and still having them be safe to use. I wouldn't want anyone to have the situation we had at our war last weekend. The use of the felt discs seems to make the pain associated with getting hit with a nerf dart, a lot less of a traumatic experience, especially to the people who are new to Nerfing. We had a couple newer players come to some of our wars the last few times. They were shocked at how much it shot to get hurt, granted the one kid was using a Vulcan.

The comment that Slug darts fall apart a lot is true if you make shitty darts. I used a high temp hot glue gun to glue on the washer and felt disc to the blank. In all my range tests, I didn't have any of them break. It also helps to burn a whole with the glue gun and fill it up with glue and put the washer on. Felt + washer darts can be very durable, in fact.

Another added bonus to switching to the same darts is we can all pick up each other's darts at the war and use them. This means I won't have to spend 4+ hours making hot glue domes on my darts, and then going to the war and having everyone gank my darts.

[Doom]

This analysis I find interesting enough to warrant an end to my sabbatical. Thanks for posting this Ryan201821. I do have some criticisms of some of the conclusions.

Split hinted at this, but I'll say it explicitly. Ammo and blaster bans treat symptoms and avoid the underlying cause of the problem. From a terminal ballistics standpoint, kinetic energy density (KED) is the important parameter. Two darts with same nose hardness and KED but different masses and velocities will hurt equally. If you don't believe me, you should know that Hasbro uses KED to ensure that darts are safe. I know I've said this multiple times but no one seems to get it outside of Spudfiles.

Physically, KED is the ratio of kinetic energy to impact area. Smaller impact areas focus the kinetic energy more and increase KED. They also--and not by coincidence--hurt more. The same goes for higher velocities and heavier darts.

I don't see anything wrong with hard tipped, heavy, or high velocity darts given that they satisfy a maximum KED requirement. If someone wants to use a 5 gram dart and be limited to 20 m/s velocities, that's their (stupid) decision.

Perhaps the biggest advantage to KED is that it is an objective test. Some people have biases that will affect the results. Ryan201821 demonstrated one when he tested the slingshot weight darts first to "get them out of the way." A proper test would be double blind. (If you expect something to hurt, you are more likely to believe it did.) I don't doubt the results here, but some guns and darts that usually are bad can be made safe and I fear little biases like this could eliminate a safe dart or gun.

Edit: See my correction of this point and others two posts down. It's worth noting that Slug darts should have worse aerodynamics than regular darts, but their other benefits outweigh this. Regardless, poor aerodynamics can be considered a safety feature to reduce velocity and thus pain at a distance.

Unfortunately most people fear math. KED could not be implemented as a limit in the real world unless someone makes a bunch of tables that people could use to check if their darts are legal.

Stuff for those who don't fear math and science:

KED can be compared against a material's modulus of resilience (the amount of energy a material can absorb per unit volume before yielding occurs) multiplied by the impact area to see if the material will at least deform from the impact. Physically, we are comparing how much energy the material can absorb and the energy of the projectile.

In Nerf we don't really care about why it works and just need to keep the KED below whatever value is deemed appropriate. I've guestimated that 0.015 J/mm^2 is a good value but haven't done any tests to verify (This is based on a safety factor of 4 over the KED required for eye damage listed on this page).

Also, an additional factor should be added to account for differences in the hardness of the tip, but for a simple analysis regular KED is very adequate. I've been meaning to see what modifications are necessary for this, but maybe now I'll get around to it.

Edited by Doom, 21 November 2009 - 10:01 AM.

[CaptainSlug]

It's pretty established that Slug darts are not as durable, and I will also add that they are not as resistant to moisture.
But I'm personally not willing to expend the extra time and effort to make hot-glue tip darts since I've found them to not perform as reliably, and I just hate making them.

It's worth noting that Slug darts should have worse aerodynamics than regular darts

I do not consider that to be a terribly accurate statement. If they had terrible aerodynamics then they would not be consistent/accurate, and they would not perform slightly better than darts weighted with a single bb.

For such a small surface area on such a lightly weight projectile (that's not traveling all that fast), there is no significant drag reduction benefit of a domed tip versus a flat face.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 19 November 2009 - 03:10 PM.

[Doom]

Yes, that is correct as aerodynamics encompass many different aspects. Apologies; I meant a poor drag coefficient relative to what is possible. "Regular darts" probably is not accurate as well. I suspect they don't do much worse than many of the other darts out there if worse at all. In this future I won't incriminate any particular style and say "flat tipped darts have the worst drag coefficients."

I suggest you look at some tables of drag coefficients for cylinders with different shaped heads as you might be surprised. I have found discrepancies between tabulated data and what I've measured, but I blame the inadequacies of my testing and exterior ballistic simulation as the point of the drag coefficient is that it should be independent of scale. There's an old book called "Fluid Dynamic Drag" that I've found useful for this. Unfortunately it is no longer in print, but if a PDF of it can be found online.

Edit: See this plot below from Fluid Dynamic Drag. This is a dramatic difference in zero angle of attack drag coefficient. This website has the plot and other information from the book. Please actually read what I say below as the interpretation of this data is important.



My simple model assumes the dart is always pointing in the direction of its velocity (i.e. there is no angle of attack). This was a simplification that seemed initially reasonable but there may be reasons to doubt it. Split's suggestion that reducing the dart length increases range would seem to indicate that the angle of attack is not always zero as the plot above for zero angle attack shows a higher drag coefficient for shorter lengths. There are other explanations too, but this hypothesis seems likely.

With this in mind any of my earlier conclusions based on zero angle of attack can be disregarded. Based on Splits comments below my thoughts that the drag coefficient is markedly higher are correct, however, it is obvious that something else is going on at the same time and further study is necessary.

Edited by Doom, 24 November 2009 - 03:13 PM.

[Ice Nine]

Ban slingshot ammo? What are you, insane? I see what you're trying to do, but instituting a hard to police rule just because guns are shooting too far is a bit ridiculous.

Also, I would make slug darts if they didn't fall apart like motherfuckers. Like every game I've been to, I'll pick up slug darts, and the foam will have fallen off, making it impossible for me to use.

Yeah, it's super hard to police whether or not the darts have felt or hot glue tips. It's not like it takes significant effort to figure out which is which. Unless you're implying that people can add weights under the washer and felt, which I have seen people do, it really is not hard to check. I'd like to think I can trust the people I work with.

I still have useable Slug darts from Armageddon. If you make them right, with enough hot glue as a base on top of good dense foam, they last a lot longer than people think they do. Hell, digging through the community bucket Ryan has, there are Slug darts Zorn and I made in the spring. A construction adhesive base works even better as it won't shatter on high-energy impact, and so, these darts are still around.

[Ryan201821]

Doom I agree this data is not 100% accurate, but at least we can draw some conclusions from it. It's hard to determine how much a dart hurts with empirical testing in these circumstances. I wasn't hit with the darts in the same spot of my body with the different darts. One area of my body getting hit might hurt significantly more than, say my foot. Also my mental state of mind could have skewed the data since I was anticipating the slingshot weighted darts hurt more. A double blind test is what I should have done. Your method of determining how much a dart "hurts" is much better, but unfortunately

In Nerf we don't really care about why it works and just need to keep the KED below whatever value is deemed appropriate.

...this is much easier.

Yeah, it's super hard to police whether or not the darts have felt or hot glue tips. It's not like it takes significant effort to figure out which is which. Unless you're implying that people can add weights under the washer and felt, which I have seen people do, it really is not hard to check. I'd like to think I can trust the people I work with.

That's why a community dart bucket would be ideal, since you know each dart is the same weight. But I agree with Zeke, I think I can trust the people who attend my wars not to be a complete douche and weight there darts heavier than allowed. If you run into that problem, it's as simple as not letting that person come back.