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N-strike Clipped Pas

Polycarb trigger p.2 / Need help p. 3

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#26 TantumBull

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 05:35 PM

Important Trigger Update:
My trigger broke yesterday because it had broken before, and the reinforcements I used just didn't cut it. If your trigger has never broken And you do my trigger reinforcements, you should be fine, though.

Anyhow, so I machined a new one outta polycarb after Homesauce told me about his PVC one and it's effectiveness. Thanks for the idea, dude. I basically just traced the trigger and cut it out, making little refinements as I went.
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Edited by TantumBull, 28 July 2009 - 10:26 PM.

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#27 wingd man

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:25 PM

This is now officially the most bad-ass shotgun-like Nerf gun I have ever seen.
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#28 taerKitty

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:32 PM

Anyhow, so I machined a new one outta polycarb! I basically just traced the trigger and cut it out, making little refinements as I went.

Great going - that's hardcore, crafting your own. What'd you use to cut the polycarbonate?
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#29 CA13

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:41 PM

I'd do this because I can't find someone who can vouch on RSCB's being ultra reliable. You should replace the coat hanger with a dowel rod or make a notch in a slice of brass that could rest on the handle and serve as the breech actuator. Great write-up, though.
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Doing this as I speak. I have no idea when I got it...my DAD got it some 15 years ago, but that doesn't matter. Anyways, it keeps jerking around all over the place. I try to hold it with a rag...It doesn't look like...much.

#30 CoasterDynamix757

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:48 PM

Will you be selling the triggers?
I'm sure that would help a lot of people out.
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#31 Split

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:59 PM

I'd do this because I can't find someone who can vouch on RSCB's being ultra reliable. You should replace the coat hanger with a dowel rod or make a notch in a slice of brass that could rest on the handle and serve as the breech actuator. Great write-up, though.

Totally agree. In terms of reliability, this thing with the dozen attachment points and moving parts far defeats the inline clip made from formed fittings with no moving parts.

Like the mod, question its reliability. But I've already told you that. Hope it works out for ya.

Edited by Split, 05 July 2009 - 11:06 PM.

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Teehee.

#32 AssassinNF

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 11:21 PM

Totally agree. In terms of reliability, this thing with the dozen attachment points and moving parts far defeats the inline clip made from formed fittings with no moving parts.

Yep, it sure does.

Ranges are consistant, it never double-fires, and you don't have to point it down after every shot. RSCB's are just too finicky for me.
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Probably dead by now, or something.


#33 TantumBull

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 01:12 AM

This is now officially the most bad-ass shotgun-like Nerf gun I have ever seen.

Thanks a bunch, man.

Great going - that's hardcore, crafting your own. What'd you use to cut the polycarbonate?

Thanks. To be perfectly honest, I used a dremel with the smallest drill bit the thing came with. Definitely not ideal, but it was safe (non-abrasive bit) and it worked, albeit the slowness and it looking like a beaver made it.

I'd do this because I can't find someone who can vouch on RSCB's being ultra reliable. You should replace the coat hanger with a dowel rod or make a notch in a slice of brass that could rest on the handle and serve as the breech actuator. Great write-up, though.

Talk to Ice Nine about RSCB's and their reliability. Once the coat hanger bends too much I'll consider that. And thank you.

Will you be selling the triggers?
I'm sure that would help a lot of people out.

Nope, the parentals only allow me to buy over the haven. I can't sell.

I'd do this because I can't find someone who can vouch on RSCB's being ultra reliable. You should replace the coat hanger with a dowel rod or make a notch in a slice of brass that could rest on the handle and serve as the breech actuator. Great write-up, though.

Totally agree. In terms of reliability, this thing with the dozen attachment points and moving parts far defeats the inline clip made from formed fittings with no moving parts.

Like the mod, question its reliability. But I've already told you that. Hope it works out for ya.

I definitely agree. Your gun will last a hell of a lot longer if you just RSCB it. Simplicity almost always equals reliability. And thank you. I hope it works out for me as well (crosses finger it lasts a whole war).

Totally agree. In terms of reliability, this thing with the dozen attachment points and moving parts far defeats the inline clip made from formed fittings with no moving parts.

Yep, it sure does.

Ranges are consistant, it never double-fires, and you don't have to point it down after every shot. RSCB's are just too finicky for me.

Your points are very valid. But Split is right, a K9 special will last longer then a PAS modded like this. And agreed about the finickiness. I can never get those things to work well. For some reason the RSCB'd salvo tank on my sm1.5k hits like 40 to 60 (large range in numbers because its a guesstimate).

Edited by TantumBull, 06 July 2009 - 01:14 AM.

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#34 wingd man

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 09:52 AM

To be perfectly honest, I used a dremel with the smallest drill bit the thing came with. Definitely not ideal, but it was safe (non-abrasive bit) and it worked, albeit the slowness and it looking like a beaver made it.

Why not sand the trigger with your dremel?
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#35 TantumBull

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 05:16 PM

To be perfectly honest, I used a dremel with the smallest drill bit the thing came with. Definitely not ideal, but it was safe (non-abrasive bit) and it worked, albeit the slowness and it looking like a beaver made it.

Why not sand the trigger with your dremel?

I actually did sand it down today. I used a sanding drum at a very low speed setting and then cleaned up with sand paper. The trigger is now a lot sexier and is much smoother.

I'm just theorizing here, but I think that those of us who have a lot of experience using Dremel type tools have thrown a little bit more apprehension into the mix than we may have needed to - promoting the use of toothed, rather than abrasive, cutting bits, due to the dangers of melting/burning plastics.

The general rule probably ought to be more about making sure you never burn the plastic, and always back off if you see it beginning to melt. But abrasive bits can be used safely under non-melting constraints. And anyway, melting plastic often clogs the bits, so most learn pretty quickly that it's easier and faster to back off before heat builds up.

I'm willing to take a share of responsibility for the relatively crude appearance of the edges of that particular trigger, if my cautions played a role in convincing him not to use sanding bits. To err on the side of safety is not a horrible thing anyway.

Haha, yeah, you were one of the main people that made me scared of abrasive bits. The other one was CS. But I definitely owe a large thanks to both of you. Now I really only use abrasive bits if it I need to and even then I use much slower speeds then I used to. Before I was aware of this whole plastic melting issue I would use a sanding drum at full speed. Not a good idea.

I'll upload pics of the finished product if you guys would like.
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#36 TantumBull

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:02 PM

Sorry for the double post, but I need some help with this gun. I'm having problems with ranges. I've tried everything I can think of.

My set-up:
-9/16 barrel with tightening rings
-Dart fit in tightening rings is very, very tight, would need to be twisted in
-Dart fit in 9/16 is pretty loose, but wouldn't fall out if the 9/16 faced down
-Stock spring and a 4" spring with a 25 pound load
-Seal is good enough that when I blow down the barrel it moves the plunger back without any air leakage. If I try the same thing with the plunger at half draw there is some leakage, and at full draw there is even more. Putting my hand over the barrel and shooting will not stop the plunger.
-The dart travels about 9" in the barrel
-I've tested slug darts and 3/0 darts
-There is about 4" of deadspace in the barrel

I'm getting 60's to 70's. I've tried nesting all sorts of different lengths of 17/32 brass in the barrel but nothing has gotten the blaster over 70-75. I tried putting in a different barrel without tightening rings and sometimes it would go farther because accuracy was terrible (similar to the streamline effect).

What the hell do I do now?

Edited by TantumBull, 08 July 2009 - 09:03 PM.

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#37 Ner Commando

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 09:06 PM

This is an awesome gun. A very clever idea to start and you executed it well. Good thinking with the trigger problem too.
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#38 CaptainSlug

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 11:06 PM

-There is about 4" of deadspace in the barrel

That's alot of dead space.
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#39 wingd man

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 11:09 PM

*snip*

I'd just look at the normal things: Dead space, air flow, leakage, etc. I imagine it might have something to do with all that dead space and having to long a barrel.
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#40 TantumBull

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 11:16 PM

-There is about 4" of deadspace in the barrel

That's alot of dead space.


But think about how this compares to an RSCB'd PAS. Zeke's double PAS hits 60's with enormous RSCB's which have way more deadspace. Plus angel breeched longshots hit 90's with just as much deadspace and less volume.
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#41 Hipponater

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 01:51 AM

Are you able to dismantle the set up and try the blaster singled with the same diameter brass? It seems like you can remove the PVC part and single it.

If your darts are too loose, it could be a problem, although tightening rings can offset it. However yours seem really tight as you describe them. Can you fashion a new barrel with not-so-tight rings? If you're getting solid ranges from that you can cross it off the list. Maybe try adding 4" of dead space in it too, to see what the maximum can be.

How long is your barrel, too? By "-The dart travels about 9" in the barrel", does that mean the dart moves 9 inches down then exits? Or sometimes does it not shoot? I haven't used brass, but would you be able to make a barrel attachment with some 19/32" (or something to act as a coupler between two pieces of your 9/16" barrel) to add an inch or two to the barrel and try it like that? With brass it seems you should be able to get a smooth enough, close enough connection to try a longer barrel by adding a little bit via a coupler. It would be harder to check shorter barrels, but maybe if you have a ton of spare brass.

From what you describe, it has to be something with the darts/barrel/clip. Silly question, but is the clip air tight? Are you losing some of the power there? Again, I haven't used an n-strike clip in anything other than a stock LS in an indoor war, but you may be losing air to it, not sure.

Hope that helps, it's a nicely done mod, nice write up too.

Edit: Forgot to remove the quotes I used as a reference.

Edited by Hipponater, 09 July 2009 - 01:52 AM.

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#42 CoasterDynamix757

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 02:08 AM

If your getting low ranges, do what most noobs do... shoot it angled and people will worship you by the 195' ranges your achiving. Except noobs don't get worshipped...

On Topic: I have to agree with slug 4" of dead space is too much, which could and probably is the problem. It also
seems that your plunger tube is messed up especially if it's acting like a crossbow and maintaining a good seal at the front of the plunger tube and terrible seal at the rear. May I suggest replacing the plunger head with a neoprene rubber washer? That's about all I can contribute at the moment.
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#43 Aquinas

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 08:06 AM

Don't know how relevant this is, but you've also added a notable amount of weight on the plunger head and the plunger rod via the epoxy putty and brass that you used as reinforcement. While I'm sure that this isn't necessarily the deal-breaker here (and that you really did a nice job reinforcing that thing), it is considerable weight to add for a part like the plunger head and rod. Not saying I'm 100% correct, but perhaps a point to consider.
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#44 Hi Yah

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:47 AM

Don't know how relevant this is, but you've also added a notable amount of weight on the plunger head and the plunger rod via the epoxy putty and brass that you used as reinforcement. While I'm sure that this isn't necessarily the deal-breaker here (and that you really did a nice job reinforcing that thing), it is considerable weight to add for a part like the plunger head and rod. Not saying I'm 100% correct, but perhaps a point to consider.

That little weight would not make a difference because it's so minimal and he added springs, so the added weight would not affect the ranges.
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#45 wingd man

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 11:09 AM

Yada Yada single it yada yada

I would try to temporarily single it just to see if the problem is in the breech, if this is not an option then I'd just blow on the barrel to see if there are any leaks, etc.
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#46 TantumBull

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 04:31 PM

Are you able to dismantle the set up and try the blaster singled with the same diameter brass? It seems like you can remove the PVC part and single it.

If your darts are too loose, it could be a problem, although tightening rings can offset it. However yours seem really tight as you describe them. Can you fashion a new barrel with not-so-tight rings? If you're getting solid ranges from that you can cross it off the list. Maybe try adding 4" of dead space in it too, to see what the maximum can be.

How long is your barrel, too? By "-The dart travels about 9" in the barrel", does that mean the dart moves 9 inches down then exits? Or sometimes does it not shoot? I haven't used brass, but would you be able to make a barrel attachment with some 19/32" (or something to act as a coupler between two pieces of your 9/16" barrel) to add an inch or two to the barrel and try it like that? With brass it seems you should be able to get a smooth enough, close enough connection to try a longer barrel by adding a little bit via a coupler. It would be harder to check shorter barrels, but maybe if you have a ton of spare brass.

From what you describe, it has to be something with the darts/barrel/clip. Silly question, but is the clip air tight? Are you losing some of the power there? Again, I haven't used an n-strike clip in anything other than a stock LS in an indoor war, but you may be losing air to it, not sure.

Hope that helps, it's a nicely done mod, nice write up too.

Edit: Forgot to remove the quotes I used as a reference.

I cannot remove the clip assembly, but I know for a fact that it's air tight. The dart travels 9" total before exiting the barrel. I do have spare brass on hand so I may try doing less tight tightening rings. I think for now what I'll do is make a new barrel without any tightening rings and then nest different lengths of 17/32 brass in the barrel. And thank you.

If your getting low ranges, do what most noobs do... shoot it angled and people will worship you by the 195' ranges your achiving. Except noobs don't get worshipped...

On Topic: I have to agree with slug 4" of dead space is too much, which could and probably is the problem. It also
seems that your plunger tube is messed up especially if it's acting like a crossbow and maintaining a good seal at the front of the plunger tube and terrible seal at the rear. May I suggest replacing the plunger head with a neoprene rubber washer? That's about all I can contribute at the moment.

I'll come back to my RSCB comparison again. 4" of deadspace is nothing. The deadspace in 4" of that size of brass is only a tad bit more deadspace then there is in the elbow and tee part of an RSCB, not to mention the holder section when the clip is empty. Once again, if Zeke can hit 60 on an empty clip with the stock spring, something is wrong here. I think I'll try some e-tape under the o-rings for now to see if it will help with the seal issue. But I may eventually switch to a rubber washer.

Don't know how relevant this is, but you've also added a notable amount of weight on the plunger head and the plunger rod via the epoxy putty and brass that you used as reinforcement. While I'm sure that this isn't necessarily the deal-breaker here (and that you really did a nice job reinforcing that thing), it is considerable weight to add for a part like the plunger head and rod. Not saying I'm 100% correct, but perhaps a point to consider.

Yes, that's very relavant. You're very right that this detracts from range, because the plunger ius considerably heavier now. But your also right that this shouldn't affect ranges as much as it is right now.

That little weight would not make a difference because it's so minimal and he added springs, so the added weight would not affect the ranges.

As I said, it actually does make a difference. He has a valid point.

Yada Yada single it yada yada

I would try to temporarily single it just to see if the problem is in the breech, if this is not an option then I'd just blow on the barrel to see if there are any leaks, etc.

I can't single it. And there aren't any leaks from the breech or the plunger head until it moves farther down the tube.

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm beginning to see that my problem with ranges is a collaboration of many different things. Mainly not enough springs to offset the weight of the new plunger, the "crossbow plunger effect", and dart fit. First I'm going to try adding some springs and improving the seal. If that doesn't fix the problem I'll start re-testing with tighter and looser barrels.

Edited by TantumBull, 09 July 2009 - 04:36 PM.

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#47 Ner Commando

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 05:52 PM

If any of us were to try this mod would we run into the same problems that you did, or is it just that you got bad luck.
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#48 TantumBull

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 04:56 PM

If any of us were to try this mod would we run into the same problems that you did, or is it just that you got bad luck.

You may, you may not. It's kind of hard to say. It depends on a lot of things, and dart fit is one ginormous variable. I just ordered some [k26]'s and I'll see if this allows me to use a tighter barrel. I also recently improved the seal. And I can stop the plunger by plugging the barrel, but it still slides down slowly (still an excellent seal).

In short, it depends on how you do a lot of things. But I'll post some range tests in about a week after I get back form Oregon
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#49 Glint

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 08:26 PM

Wow. Amazing. I know I'm a bit late in saying it, but completely awesome work nontheless.

Just throwing something out here; I'd be a bit worried about the coat hanger wire. In my experience they can be a bit flimsy. Not breaking, but bending under pressure, thus caushing them to be un-usable. More-so at longer lengths.

A better substitute I've found has been brass bars. Not the flat kind used for the reinforcement, but actual, tubes/cylinders. I've found them at my local Home Depot. THey come in about the same size as coat hanger wires (tags claim 1/2 diameter... 1/2 of what I'll never know) and also one bigger, but also much stronger (3/4)

Of course, seeing all the putty you put on that I'd expect it's not really that replaceable. Oh well; if it works then it works.
And it seems to be working fine. Again, great work.
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QUOTE

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#50 PointBlank

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 08:50 PM

I am utterly speechless... this mod is incredible.
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