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#26 AssassinNF

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:30 AM

It fire's at about the same as a BBBB and I don't see why if the Chimera would be banned for being to strong that the BBBB's wouldn't be banned as well.


If you look at the original post, you will see that BBBB's (BuzzBee Big Blast) are banned as well.
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#27 CrazyIvan VI

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:34 AM

So you say all Titans so that would include the Chimeras I would imagine.

That leads me to ask... Why? A Chimera fires about the same as a BBBB



WOW.

Did you even read all the fucking post? Or did you just start whining right after you saw No Titans?

Guns with plugged pumps that were designed to shoot anything larger than a mega dart. (LBB/BBBB, Signal Launchers, etc.)


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#28 Fenixharth

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:38 AM

Well if you read the post you would have seen that it says anything that is meant to shoot something larger than a mega dart - With a plugged pump. so if that means all BBBB's then fine I guess all BBBB's have plugged pumps.
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#29 futureseal

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:40 AM

What happened to the Four Horsemen?

I also think Crossbows should be banned, too, just to make everything even.

Crossbows shouldn't be banned because a well modded PAS can out-perform a crossbow. Plus, what would Groove use?
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#30 CrazyIvan VI

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:40 AM

Quit trying to dodge the rules. They're trying to make their games in the spirit of what Nerf is. Close range dart dodging fests. Not with everyone standing behind some sort of cover with their Titans and Doomsayers trying to pick people off.
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#31 futureseal

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:44 AM

Disregard.

Edited by futureseal, 08 January 2009 - 12:45 AM.

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#32 badger

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:45 AM

Sorry to throw out more questions, but I'm wondering about Big Salvos.

Technically they fire arrows, and though they barely can break 100', it would fall under the ban list, so I just wanted to make sure before I throw marvelous salvos on my favorite primaries.

I'll definitely not be able to make it to "March Meltdown" but I'll be in South Carolina starting in April, and maybe I can make some East Coast wars this summer.

Big Salvos, by reading the banned list literally as VACC stated, would be banned as their ammo is larger than a mega dart.

So you say all Titans so that would include the Chimeras I would imagine.

That leads me to ask... Why? A Chimera fires about the same as a BBBB

Chimera is banned as it is a Titan, just in a redesigned form. As for it getting BBBB ranges, I had a couple of welts from those things hitting me at Apoc. The shooters were well over 70 feet away. The ranges were comparable, at times, to a BBBB, but a plugged one, which is banned as well.

Also, the plugged pump issue is simple. If the blaster, in an unmodded form, shoots something larger than a mega dart and is powered by an air tank, if you plug the pump when you modify it, it is banned. Chimera falls under the first banned item as it is a Titan, even if its range is lower than most singled Titans, it is still a Titan, so leaving it at home is the best recourse for a Chimera if attending a war organized by the Mag7.

I also think Crossbows should be banned, too, just to make everything even.

How would that make everything even? The MaxShot gets similar ranges to a Xbow. To compare it to the banned list:

Banned Guns:
ALL Titans (a Crossbow isn't a Titan, so no psychotic ranges)
5ks (a Crossbow isn't a 5k either)
Doomsayers (a Crossbow gets less range and has a much lower ammo capacity)
Homemade Air guns (a Crossbow...do I really have to make the comparison?)
Guns with plugged pumps that were designed to shoot anything larger than a mega dart. (LBB/BBBB, Signal Launchers, etc.) (a Crossbow fires arrows as well as mega darts originally, plus it is a springer)


There is no reason to ban a Crossbow unless it is because you don't own one, which I honestly do not know. There are plenty of blasters that aren't banned that get similar ranges and performance in comparison to the Crossbow.
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#33 Fenixharth

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:46 AM

If you want that then just play a pistol game but really I just want to know why these weapons are being banned. The reason I hear alot is because the gun is too powerful and people don't want to get hurt but at that point why not just set a maximum range that guns can fire at? I would be comparable to having to have your Airsoft gun "Chrono'ed" and make it so that you can only use guns that fire below a certain FPS.
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#34 rork

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:53 AM

I'm operating under the assumption that gnarly SNAPs are cool. And saying that X-Bows should be banned is just plain silly. Congratulations are in order for Angel, who is apparently the first nerfsmith to create a gun so good it has been handicapped right out of the game (in places).
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#35 badger

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:56 AM

If you want that then just play a pistol game but really I just want to know why these weapons are being banned. The reason I hear alot is because the gun is too powerful and people don't want to get hurt but at that point why not just set a maximum range that guns can fire at? I would be comparable to having to have your Airsoft gun "Chrono'ed" and make it so that you can only use guns that fire below a certain FPS.

Then we waste the first hour plus of the day measuring the ranges of contested blasters. Singled Titans have been banned from most of the major events I have been to, so to make a blanket ban on the Titan makes perfect sense.

Personally, I have always thought (with very few exceptions) that people that depend on a plugged BBB/LBB/Signal or a Titan for a primary believe that range is all their is to a good primary. Since Apoc 07, I have hated these blasters as they remove the sportsmanship of the game and turn the game into rounds of people taking long range potshots at each other. It creates a massive imbalance in gameplay with the only options being to either ban the blasters that cause the imbalance or for everyone to use them, making gameplay as fun as watching golf. By removing these blasters, you return the challenge to the game of avoiding shots and level the playing field. Barring these blasters, most of the top primaries top off their ranges at approximately 90-100 feet.

I welcome these bans as now the skill and measure of a player will be tested, not the maximum range of their blaster. It doesn't take much talent to stand far off or hidden in the bushes and shoot at someone unawares and not engage in combat, but it takes great skill to aim at one person, reload on the fly, and dodge while trying to hit a moving target. Its about time, and this statement is not meant to insult anyone but to only act as a summary of my feelings about these types of blasters, for the pussies that don't want to engage their opponenets honorably to truly learn how the game was always meant to be played.

It also eliminates the possibility of getting shot in the face or mouth by one of these blasters as well as the chance of an overzealous player shooting me at close range with one. I nearly strangled some kid at HbH2 when, instead of getting the sweetest tap on me (I had no clue he was there at all), he shoots me at 10 feet from behind with one. I have seen these instances happen before, so banning these blasters avoids a potentially bad situation.

Edited by badger, 08 January 2009 - 01:18 AM.

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#36 Fenixharth

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:10 AM

But those stand-offs happen already with the crossbows and guns like it. The only way to fight a person with a cross bow is to either have a crossbow, use a slightly shorter range gun than the cross bow and hope to get close enough to use that gun against them if they miss or you dodge them. and what it seems like is you are setting the crossbow as the top gun. I think this is unfair because you are setting a gun that is uneasy to find and expensive as the cap when there are guns that are more readily available and cheaper that can get ranges only slightly longer than the crossbow but are banned.

Also all you would need to do to test the guns to see if they shot under a certain range is get two sticks or bags or buckets, place one down and either pace out or (using a length of string cut to the cap length) Measure the desired distance and drop the second marker. Then you have the people line up and fire and if their shots go past the bag they are no good.
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#37 Rambo

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:23 AM

Crossbows shouldn't be banned because a well modded PAS can out-perform a crossbow. Plus, what would Groove use?

What would any members of the Magnificent 7 use?

I find this announcement a bit unsettling. You've gathered pretty much every east coast war host and removed all diversity, except the venue from their wars. If someone doesn't agree with the rules, you're going to tell them to not attend your war. Where can they go if all the wars in their area have all the same rules?

Furthermore the fact that you ban guns that best demonstrate the innovative creations of our members. Most of us spend more time in the workshop than on the field, but if creations that we pour hours of our time into are banned, why bother?

It's late and maybe I'm a rambling lunatic, but it seems like latest changes are not the best for the sport.

Edit:

You can argue your point until your fingers bleed, but this is how the Mag7 will be running things, so your only options here are to either find yourself a new primary that isn't banned, or not attend any east coast event.

Fixed?

Edited by Rambo, 08 January 2009 - 01:32 AM.

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#38 badger

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:26 AM

But those stand-offs happen already with the crossbows and guns like it. The only way to fight a person with a cross bow is to either have a crossbow, use a slightly shorter range gun than the cross bow and hope to get close enough to use that gun against them if they miss or you dodge them. and what it seems like is you are setting the crossbow as the top gun. I think this is unfair because you are setting a gun that is uneasy to find and expensive as the cap when there are guns that are more readily available and cheaper that can get ranges only slightly longer than the crossbow but are banned.

Also all you would need to do to test the guns to see if they shot under a certain range is get two sticks or bags or buckets, place one down and either pace out or (using a length of string cut to the cap length) Measure the desired distance and drop the second marker. Then you have the people line up and fire and if their shots go past the bag they are no good.

This is my last statement to this issue. VACC can deal with it from here on out. The PAS, MaxShot, SM1500, and several others are on par with the Crossbow, so you are simply overreacting to the fact that your blaster is now banned and you depended too much on it. I have 5 primaries and a very versatile style of play. You seem to have only one.

And if you think that by banning these other blasters, they are making the Crossbow the top gun and eliminating the competition, then you never saw Death play. VACC, correct me if I am wrong, but he uses a combination of an unmodded Manta Ray (that he NEVER shoots) and a cutdown, unmodded LS. I have seen him take out everyone at least once, including those using Crossbows, MaxShots, SM1500, and even the now banned blasters. How, you may ask? It is because he has the skill and depends on his skills, not his blasters.

You can argue your point until your fingers bleed, but this is how the Mag7 will be running things, so your only options here are to either find yourself a new primary that isn't banned, or not attend any Mag7 event.

It's just that simple.
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#39 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:50 AM

Not with everyone standing behind some sort of cover with their Titans and Doomsayers trying to pick people off.


Better get your facts straight.
Anyone who has gone to a war with me, knows I don't like staying behind cover for too long. It gets boring fast.

Now for some facts about my baby.

Doomsayer is only hitting 105' right now.
People do not have a problem with Doomsayers range.
People have a problem with the fact that it is too good.

105' range, Killer accuracy, Easy as shit to reload, ROF of 12 shots in less than 12 seconds.

-I agree that the playing field should be relatively fair.

-I however also think that the quality of the Nerf gun a person possesses should rely on his skill at making them or acquiring them. As long as it is safe to use.

-Banning a gun because it is simply "too good" only demotivates me to continue to modify bigger/better creations.

- I am torn in half. Part of me wants to agree and make sure that everyone has fun. The other part of me disagrees with limiting Nerf guns that are "too" good as it puts a ceiling on the possibilities of modifications.

- I can understand the banning of Titans, BBBB's and any other powerful air gun. If anyone does not understand why Titans are banned they need to watch this video.

I don't know how to take this. :angry:

Edited by Forsaken_angel24, 08 January 2009 - 01:52 AM.

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#40 jwasko

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:29 AM

Wait, what MAG7 member said that BBBBs, Big Salvos, and Mega Missiles are banned?

VACC sayeth: "Guns with plugged pumps that were designed to shoot anything larger than a mega dart. (LBB/BBBB, Signal Launchers, etc.)"

The way I read it: If it ain't plugged, it ain't banned.

Can a MAG7 member (not a wannabe) confirm my summary as being right or wrong?

Edited by jwasko, 08 January 2009 - 02:41 AM.

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#41 Skitzo

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:48 AM

Where do you draw the line, if you are banning Doomsayers because they are “too good”? I completely understand banning based upon range, but banning guns because of their name isn’t right.

EX. A doomsayer that shoots 90’ and doesn’t have the rear loading holes isn’t “too good” anymore but it’s still banned because of the fact that it is a Doomsayer.

I’ve used a plugged LBB for most of my nerfing career and I consistently find myself outranged by guns that will not be banned, the plusbow for example.

What’s going on here?

Nerf has always been case to case now you’re putting down definite rules that change that.

And as for not having a “versatile style of play” what about not having a versatile amount of money in the bank. What if you can’t buy 5 primaries, just in case one gets banned because you kick too much ass with it? Is this becoming paintball where only people with money or connections can have the best guns?

Skitzo-

Edited by Skitzo, 08 January 2009 - 02:53 AM.

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#42 sputnik

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 03:37 AM

Fuck.
Just as I finish my DoomSayer, it gets a blanket ban.
Why bother working on crazy shit of it'll just get banned in the future?

I disagree, and the SATX (San Angelo TeXas) nerf clan disagrees.

So cancel the road trip to Apoc, we're out.
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#43 Cmdrmack

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 08:23 AM

Crossbows shouldn't be banned because a well modded PAS can out-perform a crossbow. Plus, what would Groove use?

What would any members of the Magnificent 7 use?

I find this announcement a bit unsettling. You've gathered pretty much every east coast war host and removed all diversity, except the venue from their wars. If someone doesn't agree with the rules, you're going to tell them to not attend your war. Where can they go if all the wars in their area have all the same rules?

Furthermore the fact that you ban guns that best demonstrate the innovative creations of our members. Most of us spend more time in the workshop than on the field, but if creations that we pour hours of our time into are banned, why bother?

It's late and maybe I'm a rambling lunatic, but it seems like latest changes are not the best for the sport.


It is entirely possible for one to create a war on ones own if one disagrees with the rules put forth by the war organizer. I for one like the attempt to standardize some of the rules we use at wars, and will be copying parts of this rule set.

I agree that the Doomsayer is too powerful to be used in a standard war. It's combination of range, ROF, and easy reloading make for an unbalanced game. I use one, and dominate at my clan wars with it. It takes a concentrated effort to eliminate someone with one of these. I guess the answer would be to use that blaster frame, which I love, to create a slightly weaker version.

The thing I love about the Doomsayer is the combination of ROF and accuracy. So I can live with a reduction in range. Mine currently houses a Longshot and a BBB spring and lacks the difficult seal improvements of Angel's mod. I was thinking of tuning it down a bit after leaving some pretty nasty welts on my friends.
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#44 aetherguy881

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 08:39 AM

I'd just like to throw something in here about the Doomsayer, what about the stock blaster? Or just with the bare basic mods? Perhaps the Doomwhisper? Would there be a chance that something like that would be allowed, as unplugged titans and whatnot are not banned via wording.
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#45 badger

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 08:49 AM

Actually aether, ALL Titans are banned, regardless of whether they are plugged or not, shotgunned, singled, firing ballistic balls or whatnot. No Titans are allowed. Period. That ruling supercedes the other concerning plugged blasters that fire stock a projectile bigger than a mega dart.
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#46 Split

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:50 AM

Wow. This shit turned sour fast. I already knew about this whole thing so I didn't have much to say, but now that I've realized you've all lost your minds...

The only gun I'm sad to see banned are Salvo's, and it's not even that bad.

The Chimera at Apoc '08 shot (assuming, I remember it being more) unplugged BBBB ranges with (your words) a "40% efficient" barrel/setup/whatever you did to it. You even said so in your thread that you have more efficient barrels in the works. All it would take is one of those to get back to being a singled titan with a grip.

OMC, as it was explained to me, is a "Nested clan." Smooth.

Fenix, if you really think the only way to beat a crossbow is with a crossbow, play some more. I think a lot of people now can attest to me (and many, many others) taking out multiple crossbowman at once, several times (very notably in PA War 2).

Doomsayer isn't really banned because it's "too good," at least, in my opinion. It dominates in every category, and has no weakness. And there's nothing else like it yet. So unless you had another doomsayer, you're always at a huge disadvantage, which takes out all strategy for the doomsayer player, and takes out all of the fun for his (or her!) opponent.

I do actually have a slight problem with the range of a doomsayer.. Though I personally ban them only at small wars, where it's a lot more likely that you'll get shot close range, multiple times.

Jwasko, you're right about the unplugged pumps, but it also includes using bike pumps, like many Marvelous Salvos.

As for working on the next big thing, it's the same as us making HPA powered guns. Other than Slug's Magstrike, I don't think anyone ever intends to let them be war legal, and such is assumed when people make them. After talking to Vacc and Talio several times, they told me a few of the projects on my workbench would likely be banned if they worked as planned, but that's not going to stop me. It is always cool to have one of those things that dominates in every category; using it in a war is not, and shouldn't be, the only reason we make them. Look for the upcoming LGLF article "Why we single titans." Hah.

Edit: I think Rambo has a noteworthy point, but not really to the extent he takes it to. I plan on hosting a few wars (albeit mostly private). You, Rambo have hosted in the past successfully. Ice plans on having bi-monthly wars. FA has his 2+ wars a year. The Mass. group has some stuff going on up there. I don't really think these guys came together so that they can standardize all of the major wars; it just works out that way because the longest running (and therefore best known and best attended) annual/bi-annual wars are run by the longest standing members. And those are the ones in this clan.

I do like diversity in rule sets, but that's what all of the individual Mag 7 members' hosted wars are going to be about. New, temporary, rule sets and game type to shake things up a bit.


~~~to those in Mag 7~~~

I was wondering what you guys plan on allowing for pistol rounds? I agree that 'Splats and Urukai crossbows should not be allowed, but what about turreted guns and things with mechanisms such as the Sharp shooter2 and such.

Edited by Splitlip, 08 January 2009 - 10:03 AM.

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Teehee.

#47 VACC

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 10:14 AM

I'll be honest, we didn't expect this to be such a big deal. Most of the guns on our list have been banned at wars in the past, and this only represents a small portion of the nerf wars that will be held this year. It's not like if we ask you to put down one of your guns at our war that you're never going to use it again

Look, nothing's set in stone, but if we think something either makes the wars less fun or represents a hazard at close range, we're going to ask people to use something else.

Everyone just take a deep breath and relax.

If everyone calms down and wants to discuss this in a logical manner I think we can have a dialogue, but it's just not productive for us to respond to irrational panic.
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#48 aetherguy881

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:09 AM

Actually aether, ALL Titans are banned, regardless of whether they are plugged or not, shotgunned, singled, firing ballistic balls or whatnot. No Titans are allowed. Period. That ruling supercedes the other concerning plugged blasters that fire stock a projectile bigger than a mega dart.


I guess I misread there, but my thoughts on the other unplugged blasters still stand. I'm not going to argue it since I haven't seen as much action as many of you have. That and it'd be arguing over the internet...

I guess the whole deal with this thread turning sour is that the ground rules were basically forced upon anyone who wants to attend the wars, I guess people want a little say in the rules.

I don't want to be the harbinger of argument, but this is what it sounds like.
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#49 Groove

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:11 PM

Wow. This shit turned sour fast. I already knew about this whole thing so I didn't have much to say, but now that I've realized you've all lost your minds...

You ain't kidding. Shit has clearly hit the fan, and I for one was not expecting this kind of response. I'm going to echo VACC's message and calmly tell everyone to calm the fuck down momentarily, as these rulesets have not been etched into stone tablets and brought down from the mountains quite yet. A lot of these rulings were meant to streamline play and provide a balanced nature for the game. We can discuss this in a rational manner, but I, for one, am not going to sit here and read 3 pages of panicked indignation.

I do like diversity in rule sets, but that's what all of the individual Mag 7 members' hosted wars are going to be about. New, temporary, rule sets and game type to shake things up a bit.

Split has hit the nail on the head. Just because we've decided to include a slightly larger list of standardized rulesets does NOT mean each of our wars is going to be some sort of strictly regimented bullshit that "lacks diversity." Quite the contrary, actually - each of these wars is hosted by a different person, which will ultimately lead to a different war experience each time. The individual war flavor and environment will still be intact.

I was wondering what you guys plan on allowing for pistol rounds? I agree that 'Splats and Urukai crossbows should not be allowed, but what about turreted guns and things with mechanisms such as the Sharp shooter2 and such.

Probably the same rulings we've used on Gunslinger's Heaven in the past. Singled, spring powered pistol blaster, with the exclusion of Urukai's and Splats. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that things like Sharp Shooter II's and Secret Shots with mechanisms to switch which plunger tube is being used, will be legal. But that's not the official word, obviously.

Fuck. Just as I finish my DoomSayer, it gets a blanket ban. Why bother working on crazy shit of it'll just get banned in the future?

I disagree, and the SATX (San Angelo TeXas) nerf clan disagrees. So cancel the road trip to Apoc, we're out.

Oh, jeez, you're right. Why work on anything if someone on the East Coast is going to ban it?! Shit, we should just quit Nerf altogether. This is clearly the end of the motherfucking world. Do me a favor, take a deep breath, and get some of that sand out of your vagina.


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#50 rork

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

I love how everyone is so busy clawing their eyeballs out over theoretical gun-ban hairsplittery that they forget how fucking cool this really is.
  • 0
<a href="http://nerfhaven.com...howtopic=20296" target="_blank">SNAPbow Mk. V</a>
<a href="http://nerfhaven.com...howtopic=20409" target="_blank">Make it pump-action</a>


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