While this thread is up, I thought I'd ask: Is there anywhere to get red or other brightly colored foam now that Kane's stopped selling? Modman's website is apparently gone too. The fbr directory is horribly out of date, basically all the sources listed are no longer supplying.

EDIT: I just remembered FA's website, which has beige. Anyone know of anywhere else?

This is really impressive, especially the new catch design. Have you tried increasing pretension for more power? Do you know if the tubing's elastic limit would prevent you from increasing power past a certain point? It would be great to have a spring-like blaster which can be adjusted to fire arrows or shotgun blasts the way airguns can.

Wow, those are amazing!

Would you say these are the best motors for all flywheel nerf blasters? To my knowledge they all use 130 size motors.

I'd like to second the request for a flywheel post. There's little to no knowledge in the community as to how variables like wheel mass, moment of inertia, and motor torque affect performance. If we could get a Real Life Physicist to teach us the basics it could really help people who want to build their own.

Guys. Hasbro absolutely always, in every case, 100% of the time, no exceptions, advertises angled ranges. This thing maybe has modding potential to 100ft flat and beyond, but expecting it to get that stock is wishful thinking.
Notice that the fine print, just like every other nerf blaster, says "fires up to" in front of the range.

Someone please be my hero and convert their blaster to larger diameter brushless motors. It would require major reconstructive surgery on the blaster but the results would be in a whole 'nother universe.

Would something like this work?

I understand that brushless motors are more efficient than standard ones, but what advantages would they have in a flywheel gun? More torque, therefore less downspin from firing?

Edit: I now realize that these are only 10k rpm, half the speed of the mod here. So I guess they wouldn't work? Or could torque make up for it? I really don't know much about flywheel guns.

Are multiple entries allowed per person?

This might be the wrong place to ask, but what are the rainbow pump's advantages over the pumpsnap? They're more reliable, is there anything else?
I don't mean to criticize, just trying to understand.

I think one of the things that keeps people from building air guns is the fear that they're too complicated. I think it should be noted, just for beginners, that you don't need to understand most of this stuff if you just want to make a good Mad Ghost, TH^2, WNTS, or similar. The essential things to understand are check valves and over pressure valves.
You may also want to add this link to the oprv section, it has some crucial information on how to use them.

March:
[url=http://nerfhaven.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23689]10th [VA] VAFF[/url]

The Lowes and Walmart (LAW) airgun, an entry for the SNAP class.
http://nerfhaven.com...showtopic=25057

I don't understand; why do you have to remove the adhesive? Wouldn't that help it bond to the silicone better?

Silicone is basically immune to adhesives. By using bare felt, the silicone seeps in between the threads and cures, forming a bond.

Do you think it would be possible to burn the hole instead of drill it?

This looks awesome! But I'm not quite clear on the O-ring. Is it glued around the inner edge of the tee(like concentric circles)? What's its function? Thanks.

3", two section snap.


Plunger showing:


Close up of interesting parts of the plunger:


The back half is a standard snap body, but the plunger rod extends into a 12" long 3" plunger tube. This allows a k12 spring, which is too big for a normal snap, because it catches on the nail, to be used with the normal snap trigger set up. The catch is behind the spring, and catches at the handle while the spring is kept inside the 3" pipe by a large washer "floating" on the plunger rod. It has 6 3/4" vent holes in the plunger tube, and uses 1" polycarbonate tube as a barrel.

It uses a hamp-like 2" endcap wrapped in duct tape and yarn as a punger head. To my knowledge, rubber washers aren't made big enough for 3" pvc.

The 9637k12 spring is immensely powerful. With 68 pounds of draw force, it's the strongest 11" spring big enough to fit cpvc that Mcmaster sells. Using this spring, I thought that decent range would be basically guaranteed, so long as the gun didn't explode from the force, but ranges are actually kind of disappointing, at around 30'.

There are several things that could be improved. Deadspace and plunger head mass could both be reduced, and adding another inch of compression(currently 6") would probably help a lot. I'll give updates if I make any progress, but that is what I have for now! Update below.

Total cost was about $25. the main cost is the 3"x2" couplers. But apart from that and the other large pvc parts, everything is pretty cheap and is stuff you'll have laying around if you've built a snap before.

(maybe a bit too comprehensive)Parts list:

Body:
12" 1 1/4" pvc
1 1/4" - 2" pvc bushing
2" - 3" reducing coupling
12" 3" foam core pvc
2" - 3" reducing coupling
2" - 1" pvc bushing
1" - 3/4" pvc bushing
12" 1" OD polycarbonate tube

Trigger:
Clothespin
7/8" nail
1 1/2" angle iron

Plunger rod/head:
1/2" cpvc tee
12" 1/2" cpvc
Epoxy putty ramp
#6 bolt(holds next 5 parts together)
1/2" cpvc endcap
1" fender washer
nylon spacer
another 1" fender washer
another 1/2" cpvc endcap
large fender washer (ID larger than cpvc, OD larger than 1 1/4" pvc)
9637k12 spring
2" pvc endcap
duct tape
yarn
1/2" x 1/2" carriage bolt cpvc endcap (to attach head to rod)
1/2" machine screws to hold the whole thing together

EDIT: I hope it's not too late for a quick update.
I shortened the plunger rod so the spring is pretensioned and gets full compression. I also shortened the plunger tube to match and remove some deadspace. Finally, to reduce plunger head mass, I got rid of the carriage bolt screwed into the plunger rod, and replaced it with an endcap machine screwed on. It now gets a respectable 45 feet.
It takes some muscle to prime, but is still totally doable. The full compression is just barely visible through the vent holes.

How heavily does performance rely on turning the valve quickly? Is there a trade-off between turning the valve quickly and accuracy?

The faster you turn the valve the better the shot. If it gets opened slowly it can misfire. It takes a little getting used to, but id feel comfortable loaning it out.

But would you say that when turning the valve for competitive power, you can place the shot as accurately as a springer? Sorry for my skepticism, but in my experience with ball valve triggers, turning them fast enough for a good shot always results in too much shake for acceptable accuracy.

I'd like to see the return of semi/fully automatic air guns. If they used n-strike clips that'd be awesome. And I know this is asking for too much, but my dream Hasbro gun would be an electrically pumped air gun.

Most people in the NIC can easily throw together a simple homemade that shoots 100 feet, but automatic and semiautomatic guns are something the community has never really been able to reproduce. So I think the place where Hasbro can provide us the most is complex, rapid fire guns like the stampede, RF20, and magstrike that we could never build ourselves.

TL;DR: We can build simple, long-range guns ourselves. Hasbro should build us complex, rapid fire ones.

Wow, this thing is awesome. How many clips can it go through in one fill? I'm assuming you fill it electrically and disconnect the pump until next round/day/ however it works with hvz?

Two more questions, What type of foam did you use, and where did you get it?

So long as the area of the passageway doesn't decrease too much below the area of the back of a dart I don't see how it will have an impact. I made the passageway larger between the first drawing I posted and the most recent image.

Makes sense. KaneTheMediocre made a 3D printed wye in two parts like that. It fires silicone head darts, but I'm not sure on the details since he only made the one post about it. Maybe you could contact him.

Do you think the air inlet being thinner than normal could decrease performance?

I guess this is a pretty common experience, but it's at least a data point. A slug from a mad ghost at around 200fps from maybe five feet away left a welt for around 24 hours.

What motors did you use? And why the extra barrel?

Is there any chance that you or, I don't know... someone else very interested in metal-free darts... might be selling these? It's a great design, but most nerfers don't have access to a lathe.

The fact it has an Innovation Patent means it's closer to seeing Retail-Light than the ECS-50 drum ever was.

Could you elaborate on this part? It's my understanding that the majority of patents never get brought to market. Wikipedia says an "innovation patent" is "A type of patent in some countries used for inventions that have a short commercial life or that offers a comparatively small advance over existing technology. It often has a shorter term of protection, for example 8 years instead of 20 in Australia".

So I see how a working prototype implies that it's close to market, but I don't really get that part.

The gun pictured resembles this one, SG says the darts that come with that one are solid tipped, so in theory more front-weighted and more accurate than streamlines.
Edit: I read through some comments and apparently despite their solid tips, they are just as inaccurate as normal streamlines.

Yes. I have cut a few down to 1.5 in and they work ok

What did you try them in? The plastic instead of rubber tips might make them work in hoppers.

I have tried this, but it turns out really dark for me, can you post a picture of this? What color, and brand marker did you use?

I use red generic marker on white darts. Back when I used gray foam, I used and orange sharpie oil-based paint marker, but white marker might be more visible for gray.

Ultimately I'd recommend just getting some colored/white foam though. It costs more yeah, but that's mostly made up for by the fact that you lose way fewer darts.

I use a red permanent marker to mark the backs of my darts. It doesn't flake off like paint does.

I probably did something wrong, but I've had two putty ramps break on me and had to replace them.

I also had several catch ramps break on me, until I realized that Oatey brand putty(which is the kind in hardware stores I've been to) is much softer than Loctite. I think that's a problem a lot of people run into but never work out. Once I started using Loctite I never had a problem.

And while I was using Oatey putty I came up with a method that can make ramps harder, which is to coat them in a thin layer of JB Weld. The very first snapbow used a pvc ramp, but the community moved away from that because steel wears down plastic over time. Maybe a layer of JB Weld would prevent that problem.

Edit: This is kind of off topic, but I wonder if using a thin polycarbonate rod instead of a nail would work and keep a plastic ramp from wearing down? It's certainly not something for a beginner write-up, and might not be worth doing at all, but maybe.

I'll take 30m meters plus the bonus. Thanks!

Hmmm...that only talks about current supply. We are talking about discharge rate. The discharge rate remains the same.

But I thought about the math, and I was wrong, it does increase max discharge (not discharge rate).

For example, if both cells have 1000mAH, and 10C discharge rate, that means they have 10A max discharge, because 10C * 1AH = 10A. So if you connect them in parallel, you have a 2000mAH supply, but still 10C discharge rate. But 10C * 2AH = 20A max discharge.

So yes, that would work, but most people want overvolting, so you would have a pretty large pack to put 3 paralleled 18650s in series with 3 more paralleled in series with 3 more paralleled lol.

I see, thanks for the answer. Looking into it I don't think my idea is so great though, because I was looking at Panasonic IMRs. Efest IMRs are both cheaper($8 ea) and much higher discharge(30A). The OP won't need current that high if he has stock motors, but for high current applications efests sound much better than trustfires

Their current discharge rate will not increase, FYI, but their mAH will add up.

Sorry, I don't quite understand? Doesn't connecting batteries in parallel compound their current discharge? http://electronics.h...ch/battery6.htm (first paragraph).

A Trustfire charger will work just fine, I use one with my eFests. One great thing about IMRs is that they can't be overcharged.


Trustfires are just common because it was what people were initially doing. Plus, they're cheap. But because of their construction, there are many problems with trying to use them with a high current demand.
There are many alternatives which will provide the current motors demand when overvolted, IMRs, LiFEPO4, LiPo, NiCd, etc...

Since you can get three 18650 trustfires(3-4A max discharge) for the price of an 18650 IMR(10A max), would it be reasonable to use three trustfires in parallel for the same current as an IMR but three times the capacity?
It would probably be impractical in a stryfe since you'd end up with 6 or 9 batteries, but I'm thinking of a homemade.

I'm kind of confused by the numbers. How is it that 4Bs are infamous for being so powerful, but can barely break 100ft?

As a father with a 4 year old daughter, who loves my sonic Longstrike and Longshot. The Rebelle line is a nice way to introduce Nerf blasters to girls. But the theme could use a little refining. My daughter will probably like it cause she is the type of kid to dress up like a princess and then play in the mud. But I showed the line to my wife, her instant reaction was "why do they have to be pink?"

The design is fine, although that bow looks small, but adding other colors like red or purple might not be a bad idea.

There is a larger sister to the Xcross shot. Griever some great points - would you mind asking your wife why that was her reaction? What did she expect to see? What colours in her mind are more befitting? Thank you!

That was my reaction too, because some girls like colors other than pink. My suggestion to Hasbro for selling guns to girls would be to stop putting 18 year old marines on their box art, and start using normal kids, some of whom are girls.

That's not to say that blasters targeted at girls are a completely bad idea, but these seem like the femininity aspect is a bit overdone.

Sorry to get back to you guys late, classes etc.

Nice writeup! Have you tried making a hoppered version?

Thanks! It works just fine with a hopper, I use an RSCB in the writeup purely to avoid requiring a wye.

You could actually shape this ergonomically with different pieces of pipe and fittings, both the air tank and air outlet can be in any configuration you'd want since it's just PVC. I'm debating making one of these but just shaping it like a Mad Ghost myself.

Definitely, there is a lot of flexibility in layout. I prefer the tee shaped handle as opposed to the elbow because it's easier to drill a straight hole in a tee than an elbow, but either can work.

This might be silly but how do you actually hold it with your trigger hand? It looks like it would be uncomfortable/ slightly difficult to hold.

Good question, I hold it like this:

It's comfortable for me, but if you want more hand room you can make the stub between the tee and cap longer. Fill it with hot glue if you're worried about dead space.

I am familiar with how to use this type of blaster, I have several WNTS's. I was asking about stuff like ranges, fps, etc being affected by the OPV because even if its a super easy build, if its still outclassed by 20 feet at every turn its going to be replaced with a loaner during competitive wars. Do you have any comparison data to this blaster's stats if you do not have an OPV at the same number of pumps? I understand that would be like building a WNTS, but with the well nut turned around it may probably outclasses the WNTS capabilities due to increased airflow. And you still havent answered on the ranges- can you get them?

I took some readings without the oprv and with the same number of pumps, muzzle velocity is the same.
I haven't done range tests, but if you want to match up velocity with range, you can look here and here. The chart shows 210fps is pretty standard for competitive guns; it matches to about 80 feet when fired perfectly level, which is roughly equivalent to the 100 foot claim people give with a slight(often unintentional) angle. If you want more range, you can always make the tank and barrel bigger.

Side note, from reading through the write up a few more times- you mention not buying glue because "it requires an extra $10 dollars in chemicals that are [negated through this build]". Good job on not needing the glue, but what makes it "hard to use" for a newcomer, and what makes twist fittings any safer? I understand that if you get a bad glue joint it would leak; and with the OPV in the system, you won't reach pressures high enough to blow a joint. The only places I have ever broken my WNTS's is actually the twist in fitting, sometimes while pressurized...

Twist fittings aren't safer, but they are better for noobs because they aren't permanent. For example, if you pvc cement your OPRV subsystem to the tank only to find out that it leaks, then the whole assembly becomes useless. But with twist fittings, you can just replace the bad subsystem with a working one.

Based off of the MadGhost, have you seen the american version, the WNTS?
Quick question to double check- is the second T in the trigger section just to stabilize the trigger bolt? By flipping the well nut I would think it wouldn't be necessary since it i think would seal a lot easier?
Ranges? FPS? Usability? You don't have any info on how the OPV affects these. Wondering if people that build this are going to drop it in favor of borrowing a blaster.
Great write up, good job on finding a way to get an OPV in there!

I covered most of this in the write-up, but I'll reiterate. This gun draws heavily from the WNTS, it is referenced and cited. Speed is 210fps as measured by a 60 frames per second video camera. Usability is simple, just tilt, pump, aim, and fire. The opv/oprv is designed to limit FPS to a safe level, but doesn't effect usability at all.
The well nut is inverted to increase air flow out of the tank. The hex bolt has less than a third of the cross section of the well nut, so this way it restricts airflow less. You are correct, the second tee then serves to stabilize/center the well nut, which can move more without being held in place by it's end inside the bushing. It's also worth noting that the original WNTS required an o-ring for seal, probably because the wellnut wasn't held flat against the bushing by anything. An o-ring the perfect size would be hard to find at Lowes, and this build eliminates that.
What specifically makes you think someone would drop this for a loaner? It shoots as far as most springers and is easy to use, so I consider it competitive.

This is an easy, low-overhead, and safe airgun build. It uses entirely parts from Lowes and Walmart, and requires only a saw, drill, hammer, pliers, scissors and a screwdriver to assemble(no dremel!). Tony Stark couldn’t just build this in a cave, he could build it in a cave with his eyes closed.


Noob suitability
The ease of build comes from twist fittings and the complete lack of precise cuts. This gun uses twist fittings (technically known as national pipe taper fittings, or NPT) unlike most NIC air guns which use slip fittings and PVC cement. PVC cement is a powerful solvent weld(similar to glue), which has toxic fumes, is totally permanent, takes practice to use correctly, and requires and extra $10 in chemicals most of which a noob won’t even use in this build. Twist fittings are easy, cheaper, and (crucially) you can disconnect them if you mess up.
This gun has an IKEA philosophy, meaning you simply buy the pieces and connect them together. This doesn’t apply to every single step, there are a few times you have to cut pipe and one fitting which needs to be cut in half. But compared to the myriad of cut slots, half pipes, catches et cetera which are common in other builds, this is particularly suited for the noob who doesn’t have a lot of tools or experience slicing up plastic.

Safety
Fear, uncertainty and doubt often surround airguns with regard to safety. This gun uses an over pressure release valve(OPRV) taken from the air max one(aka panther) to ensure that it can never be over pumped to a pressure dangerous to the user or their target. It is true that pvc pipe is not approved for use with pressurized gas in building codes, because if a plastic pipe holding pressurized gas bursts, it can shatter and send pieces flying. However, this gun operates at only 35psi, less than 15% of its weakest fitting’s maximum operating pressure, and less than 3% of its burst pressure[1]. This makes the probability of bursting so remote, that for me it is an acceptable risk.

So enough talk, let’s build.

You will need:
Parts by where to find them:
Walmart
Bell airstrike dual action pump
Buzz bee air max one (formerly known as the panther)
Soft Soap(yup)

Lowes
Plumbing section:
5’ long ½” cpvc pipe
2’ long ½” pvc pipe
1/2” nipple 12” long
2x ½” nipple 3” long
2x ½” female to 1” male bushing
½” npt male x ½” npt female “street” elbow
½” npt x npt elbow
1” npt coupler
3x ½” tee
½” npt tee (all three sockets npt)
½” cap
½” x 3/4” bushing
¾” ball valve
Teflon tape aka PTFE thread seal tape


Hardware aisle:
¼”-5” hex bolt
#6 x ½” sheet metal screws, smallest pack


Specialty hardware drawers:
¼-20 well nut
Bolt cap

Elsewhere in Lowes(it varies, ask an attendant):
JB epoxy weld

Parts by subsystem
Pump:
Bell airstrike dual action pump
JB weld
¾” female to ½” npt male adapter

OPRV:
Another ¾” female to ½” npt male adapter
Buzz bee air max one (formerly known as the panther)
JB weld(the same as before)

Tank/body:
½” npt tee
½” male npt to ½” female npt elbow(aka street elbow)
½” female npt to ½” female npt elbow
½” 12” long nipple
½” 3” long nipple

Trigger:
2x ½” female npt to 1” male npt bushing
1” npt coupler
2x ½” tee
JB weld
½” dia 12” long nipple (a second one)
¼-20 well nut
¼”-5” hex bolt
Soft soap(for the miniature spring in the pump)
½” cap

Barrel/clip:
5’ cpvc pipe
2’ ½” pvc pipe
½” coupler
½” to ¾” bushing
¾” ball valve

Overview
It’s a basic air gun based on 3DBBQ’s madghost[2], with modifications. The main ones are an oprv, a well nut trigger[3] and noob friendly construction. If you’re ever unclear on how everything fits together you can look at this diagram.

The build relies heavily on twist joints, so here’s a guide: You will need a male fitting, a female fitting, and teflon tape. Teflon tape is variously known as teflon tape, thread tape, thread seal tape, or PTFE tape. Wrap your tape around the male fitting 3-5 times. It’s important you wrap it in the right direction, so make sure the end of the tape points in the same direction as the end of the thread on the male fitting.

Then put your female fitting on and turn it as much as you can with your hands. Only turn it by the fitting though, because if you turn for example by the end of the pump, it will act as a lever and give you enough force to crack the fitting.

Teflon tape doesn’t actually form a seal between the fittings, rather it reduces the friction between the fittings which lets you turn them more times and make a seal that way.

Also, some plumbing vocab. Nipple: A length of pipe with male threads at both ends
Bushing: a fitting that wraps around one pipe while being wrapped around by another fitting. They’re usually circle shaped, and can be either slip or threaded.
Adapter: a fitting that connects two pieces whose sizes don’t allow for a bushing
NPT: National pipe taper, aka “twist” or “threaded”. Pipes and fittings which are connected by threads instead glue or friction.

Trigger System
This gun’s trigger is based on thedom21’s WNTS(well nut trigger system), but the well nut is inverted to increase air flow and the bolt is stabilized by a second tee.
First, remove the spring from your soft soap pump with scissors. You can get little springs like that in packs at Home Depot, but this build is limited strictly to Lowes and Walmart, so a creative solution is necessary.

Drill ¼” holes in the center of two of your tees. Always use eye protection with power tools!

Then cut both sides of a tee along the red line. If you’re using a hand saw, hold the fitting with pliers, because a saw can easily slip on a round fitting like this one.

Cut a roughly 1-1/8” stub off a 3” nipple, then assemble the hex bolt, the soap spring, the sawed tee, the whole tee, the nipple stub, a ½”-1” npt bushing(mine is orange, yours will be white), and the well nut as shown. You can also add a screw cap to make the hex bolt more comfortable on your trigger finger.

Mix equal parts of JB epoxy weld goo with a paper clip for at least a minute. Center the well nut with the hole in the bushing. Apply JB weld between the tees, you can wipe off any excess with your finger(jb weld is non-toxic).

Double check that the well nut is centered on the bushing. Once the epoxy cures(12 hours), the well nut will be held centered and keep a good seal. I left mine in a piece of pvc pipe, but you can use a cup or anything that will hold it upright.

Add a dab of epoxy on the end of the well nut to seal the threads.



Over pressure release valve
The OPRV is a device that vents air from the tank to prevent it from going above a given pressure. It prevents your gun from being a shit cannon or a pipe bomb. For noobs unfamiliar with the concept, a shit cannon is an exercise in dick-waving where a gun shoots as far as possible, which is usually dangerous, encourages boring play, and isn’t even useful. Ariguns are famous for being used as shit cannons, but this gun is an exception. I chose a common and cheap gun to salvage an oprv from, and adjusted the tank size so that this gun shoots on the same level as a standard spring powered homemade.(210fps, as measured by 60 frame per second camera)
Unscrew and open up your air max one/ panther. Yours probably won’t have a mediocre paintjob.

Cut along the red lines to remove the oprv. Be careful not to cut into the cylinder itself!

Place the oprv in the socket of a ½”npt x ¾” adapter like shown and slather the edges in JB weld. Be careful not to put it in backwards or cover up the hole.


Pump
Unscrew the nozzle bit from your pump. Sometimes the threads are glued, so you may need to saw at the black part it a bit to get it off.

Apply JB weld around the edges of the socket of your other ½”-3/4” adapter, and around the edges of your pump base.


Insert the pump into the adapter with a twist motion, wipe off excess epoxy, and leave it upright to cure.


Barrel and clip
This is a basic RSCB clip and cpvc barrel, that you'll find on most guns without internet parts these days.
Cut a 1” stub of pvc pipe and a 12” length of cpvc pipe.

Ream(increase the inner diameter of) the pvc stub with scissors until the edge of the cpvc fits into the edge of the pvc.

Use a hammer to force the cpvc the rest of the way down the pvc stub. Once you do this, ream the open end of the pvc so darts can slide into the barrel. Whoops, my pvc stub changed color. Ignore that please.

Connect your newly made barrel, a tee, a 12” length of pvc pipe, the ½”-3/4” bushing and ball valve together like this.

Cut two 1.5” stubs of pvc pipe and use one of them to connect the barrel assembly to the trigger assembly. While you’re at it, use the other stub to connect a cap to the other side of the trigger. Drill 1/8” holes in these two places and screw your sheet metal screws into them. This will keep your barrel from swinging around while running.


Final assembly
Now that you’ve got all your subsystems together, all that’s left is to use the remaining fittings to connect your subsystems. In case the diagram isn’t clear, from the trigger it goes: 1” coupler, 1/2”-1” bushing, 12” nipple, twist elbow, 3” nipple, street elbow, twist tee, pump and oprv.

Use
Use is pretty straightforward. Open the ball valve and drop in darts until the pvc pipe is full then close it, that’s your clip. Put the butt against your dominant shoulder with your non-dominant hand on the pump and your dominant on the trigger. Tilt the gun down slightly and pump six times. At the end of the sixth pump you’ll hear a slight hiss, that’s the oprv signaling the tank is at max capacity. Then just aim down the barrel and press the hex bolt to fire.

Any questions, please ask. If its past the statute of necro limitations shoot me a pm.

Sources:
1.http://www.engineeri...ures-d_796.html
2.http://nerfhaven.com...showtopic=21427
3.http://nerfhaven.com...showtopic=21530