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#1 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:50 PM

I devised this wye modification to enable near flawless use of silicone dome darts with hoppers.

Carbon had a similar idea for this, using CPVC. It served a similar role to BritNerf's flute, but in the back of the wye rather than front. However both BritNerf and Carbon's version have problems with silicone domes because the domes cannot navigate any sort of steep angle.

This flute is made out of SC80 1/2" PVC lathed down to .715" OD. The angle cut into it serves no purpose except to allow room for the dart to navigate through the wye. The goal of the flute is to prevent the dart from bottoming out on the wye and thus unable to seat well into the barrel.

The sloped section is 1.14" long and dips from .715" height to .35" height. The angle of curvature is option and was chosen to make cutting on scroll scroll saw minimally dangerous/effortful.

Posted Image

View from front:
Posted Image

View from top:
Posted Image

View from back:
Posted Image

View from top with barrel in:
Posted Image

I chose to cut the flute from the main body of the SC80 PVC so that it is detachable and held completely within the wye.

Diagram of how it works:
Posted Image

Cutting the flute from the pipe is optional. I did this because this was for the FAL-3 which already has a moving stub to connect to the back of the wye. If you need a connection stub anyways, I highly recommend leaving the flute attached and securing it with a screw so that it doubles as flute and a stub to connect your wye to your blaster

-------------------

Firing data, indoors, room temperature (20-25C)
7" CPVC barrel
1.5" barrel stub from wye to blaster
Fired from seated position from the FAL-2
| = 1 dart fired on attempt
M = dart did not fire on attempt
D = 2 darts fired on attempt

Trials 1-6: 5 silicone darts in a thinwall 1/2" hopper clip with check valve on end
Unmodified wye
1: ||MD|
2: ||MD|
3: |||||
4: ||MDMD
5: ||MD|
6: ||||M|
Modified wye
1: D|||
2: |||||
3: |||||
4: |||||
5: |||||
6: |||||

Trials 7-9: 9 silicone darts in a sch40 clear 1/2" hopper clip with duct tape on end
Unmodified wye
7: ||M|M||||||
8: |||||M||M||
9: M||M|MM||M||||
Modified wye
7: |||||||||
8: |||||||||
9: |||||||||

Trials 10-13: 10 silicone darts in same sch40 clip as trials 7-9, ergo overfilled hopper clip
Unmodified wye
10: MD|||MD|||
11: MD|MD||||M|M|
12: ||||||M||||
13: ||||MMMDD||
Modified wye
10: ||||||||||
11: ||||||||||
12: ||||||||||
13: ||||||||||

Edited by Zorn's Lemma, 10 February 2013 - 10:04 PM.

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#2 quertyman

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

I dpn't see anything new here. It's just a britthopp with sch80 pvc.
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#3 Ryan201821

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

I dpn't see anything new here. It's just a britthopp with sch80 pvc.

You know, except for the actual important part. It feeds silicone domes, which a Brithopper doesn't.
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#4 quertyman

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

You know, except for the actual important part. It feeds silicone domes, which a Brithopper doesn't.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. Just pointing out that it is a brithopp barrel. I wouldn't say that this isn't a brithopp which is kinda what zorn said.
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#5 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:24 PM

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. Just pointing out that it is a brithopp barrel. I wouldn't say that this isn't a brithopp which is kinda what zorn said.

Except it's not. The BritNerf version is attached to the barrel; this is a modification to the wye, which is much closer to Carbon's original version.
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#6 snickers

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

I recommend you try using 1/2" electrical pvc. I has a smaller OD than regular 1/2" pvc. It would save some time on the lathe if not all the time.

Edited by snickers, 10 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.

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#7 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:32 PM

I recommend you try using 1/2" electrical pvc. I has a smaller OD than regular 1/2" pvc. It would save some time on the lathe if not all the time. If you get a chance can you tell me what size you brought the pvc down to?

.715" OD
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#8 quertyman

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:42 PM

Except it's not. The BritNerf version is attached to the barrel; this is a modification to the wye, which is much closer to Carbon's original version.

Ok, I get what you mean by that. I was talking more about the first few pics. Sorry for any confusion. Now we just need someone to be able to mass produce and distribute these darts and slugs will be nonexistent.
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#9 snickers

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:47 PM

Ok, I get what you mean by that. I was talking more about the first few pics. Sorry for any confusion. Now we just need someone to be able to mass produce and distribute these darts and slugs will be nonexistent.

If you, or anyone else, want silicone domed darts to use on this hopper, please PM me. How many darts have you ran through it and what was the temperature?

Edited by snickers, 10 February 2013 - 04:48 PM.

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#10 quertyman

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

So do you have any ideas of how to do this with cpvc and petg?
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#11 andtheherois

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

So do you have any ideas of how to do this with cpvc and petg?


Sch40 1/2 PVC that fits cpvc. Basically how carbon did it.
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#12 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

So do you have any ideas of how to do this with cpvc and petg?

I don't think you understand how this works. It doesn't matter what your barrel material is, the SCH80 is to keep the dart from bottoming out in the wye but it doesn't do anything to help "seat" the dart in the barrel which was what both BritNerf and Carbon attempted.

The dart still chambers from the pressure from the plunger.
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#13 DartSlinger

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:34 PM

So, does the flute stick snugly into the protruding ring in the middle of the wye? And if so, how did you measure the ID of the ring in the wye? Anyway, this is a great concept. Well done.
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#14 Samurai kidd

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:43 PM

So, does the flute stick snugly into the protruding ring in the middle of the wye? And if so, how did you measure the ID of the ring in the wye? Anyway, this is a great concept. Well done.

Considering he's using a lathe, I would think the dimensions are perfect. Although, it looks like the entire flute is in the ring based on the last picture, which doesn't make sense. How does everything fit in there with the OD of the flute being varied?

I assume he measured it with calipers or got it from somewhere/someone else.

*Edit:
Does this improve feeding of slugs or other darts that work in normal hoppers?

Edited by Samurai_kidd, 10 February 2013 - 07:00 PM.

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#15 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

I chose to cut the flute from the main body of the SC80 PVC so that it is detachable and held completely within the wye.

I guess they stopped teaching 6th grade reading skills.
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#16 Samurai kidd

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:34 PM

I guess they stopped teaching 6th grade reading skills.


Ah, missed that. And they did; have you been on youtube lately?
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#17 Carbon

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

Nice. Very interesting that a relatively minor change in the feed section ID allows silicone heads to work.

...it doesn't do anything to help "seat" the dart in the barrel which was what both BritNerf and Carbon attempted.

I was more after reducing the ID of the back portion, to keep darts from getting sucked into the rear of the wye. Unlike the Brithop, feed assistance was minimal, as my CPVC stub only projected under the hopper tube by maybe 1cm or so at the point. It sort of acted as a clunky graduated angle of feed, as the CPVC was quite high above the floor of the wye.

For myself, I could see using the two ideas in tandem: the sch80 sleeve to reduce the ID of the feed section of the wye to allow silicone heads, and something to reduce ID in the rear a bit more to prevent dart suck (although that's probably more of SNAP-specific problem, at least on mine).
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#18 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:36 PM

So, does the flute stick snugly into the protruding ring in the middle of the wye? And if so, how did you measure the ID of the ring in the wye? Anyway, this is a great concept. Well done.

I used calipers to measure the wall thickness of the protruding ring, subtracted that from the wall thickness of the coupler portions, and then doubled it and subtracted it from the ID of 1/2" PVC fittings (.840 - 2*(.22-.16) = .72; make it .715 for buffer, probably even .71 would work).

I was originally going to secure it with a set screw if it wasn't snug. The 2nd flute I cut was a little wider in the back so I had to actually hammer it in and so now it's pretty much permanent in that particular wye.

Diagram of how it works:
Posted Image

Cutting the flute from the pipe is optional. I did this because this was for the FAL-3 which already has a moving stub to connect to the back of the wye. If you need a connection stub anyways, I highly recommend leaving the flute attached and securing it with a screw so that it doubles as flute and a stub to connect your wye to your blaster


Edited by Zorn's Lemma, 10 February 2013 - 10:05 PM.

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#19 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

How many darts have you ran through it and what was the temperature?

Firing data, indoors, room temperature (20-25C)
7" CPVC barrel
1.5" barrel stub from wye to blaster
Fired from seated position from the FAL-2

| = 1 dart fired on attempt
M = dart did not fire on attempt
D = 2 darts fired on attempt

Trials 1-6: 5 silicone darts in a thinwall 1/2" hopper clip with check valve on end
Unmodified wye
1: ||MD|
2: ||MD|
3: |||||
4: ||MDMD
5: ||MD|
6: ||||M|
Modified wye
1: D|||
2: |||||
3: |||||
4: |||||
5: |||||
6: |||||

Trials 7-9: 9 silicone darts in a sch40 clear 1/2" hopper clip with duct tape on end
Unmodified wye
7: ||M|M||||||
8: |||||M||M||
9: M||M|MM||M||||
Modified wye
7: |||||||||
8: |||||||||
9: |||||||||

Trials 10-13: 10 silicone darts in same sch40 clip as trials 7-9, ergo overfilled hopper clip
Unmodified wye
10: MD|||MD|||
11: MD|MD||||M|M|
12: ||||||M||||
13: ||||MMMDD||
Modified wye
10: ||||||||||
11: ||||||||||
12: ||||||||||
13: ||||||||||



Nice. Very interesting that a relatively minor change in the feed section ID allows silicone heads to work.

From some observations, it seemed like the issue with silicone domes was they would drop to the bottom of the wye, and then due to friction, wouldn't be able to bend up to seat in the barrel. That spawned my original design with the tin sheet, and when that worked decently, I tried this. Whether my hypothesis was correct, or this works for some totally unrelated reason, is beyond me.
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Kruger and Dunning (1999)

#20 Ivan S

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:21 PM

Is there any chance that you or, I don't know... someone else very interested in metal-free darts... might be selling these? It's a great design, but most nerfers don't have access to a lathe.
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#21 Samurai kidd

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:50 PM

| = 1 dart fired on attempt
M = dart did not fire on attempt
D = 2 darts fired on attempt

Trials 1-6: 5 silicone darts in a thinwall 1/2" hopper clip with check valve on end
Unmodified wye
1: ||MD|
2: ||MD|
3: |||||
4: ||MDMD
5: ||MD|
6: ||||M|
Modified wye
1: D|||
2: |||||
3: |||||
4: |||||
5: |||||
6: |||||

Trials 7-9: 9 silicone darts in a sch40 clear 1/2" hopper clip with duct tape on end
Unmodified wye
7: ||M|M||||||
8: |||||M||M||
9: M||M|MM||M||||
Modified wye
7: |||||||||
8: |||||||||
9: |||||||||

Trials 10-13: 10 silicone darts in same sch40 clip as trials 7-9, ergo overfilled hopper clip
Unmodified wye
10: MD|||MD|||
11: MD|MD||||M|M|
12: ||||||M||||
13: ||||MMMDD||
Modified wye
10: ||||||||||
11: ||||||||||
12: ||||||||||
13: ||||||||||

Those are some impressive results. I think I understand this design, but correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not quite sure about the brithop part:

The flute, obviously, keeps the head of the dart from dropping into the bottom of the wye, at the point where the dart will encounter the most friction. Because the dart is elevated, the arc length of the rotation is lessened. In addition to this, the flute can act as an integrated connection point between the wye and the coupler of the blaster, increasing stability and removing some deadspace.

The reason this works when a brithop (I think) fails is because the brithop does not use a reamed barrel and elevates the dart too much. The original intent of the brithop was to provide a better way of seating the dart into the barrel, not to provide the dart with a better pathway into the reamed barrel. While this accomplishes the same thing, it has one essential restriction: The top part of the barrel isn't reamed and the petg raises the dart head higher than the sch 40. This causes more bending in the dart and more friction on the topside against the wall of they wye and the barrel.

I'm pretty certain about the first part but I'm not so sure about my brithop comparison, so any further insight on that would be appreciated.
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#22 makeitgo

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:37 AM

I've been using this variant for a while with my 'rubber' headed darts. I've never had a feeding issue.

Posted Image
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#23 mangonerf

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

cool

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A one word post, and one that isn't even capitalized or punctuated? That's like, the Trifecta of Suck. Take a couple of days off.

Edited by Carbon, 14 February 2013 - 09:21 AM.

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#24 BritNerfMogul

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:02 AM

I've been using this variant for a while with my 'rubber' headed darts. I've never had a feeding issue.

Posted Image


Ah, the good old BritHopp mk II. A much better improvement over the mk I.

I personally have been using this setup, which was made last minute before Ohio Revolution due to the fact I only received my ammo once I had landed state side:

Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by BritNerfMogul, 14 February 2013 - 07:37 AM.

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#25 Carbon

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:18 AM

I personally have been using this setup, which was made last minute before Ohio Revolution due to the fact I only received my ammo once I had landed state side:

*brit's pic*


Amusingly enough, that's the setup I was describing in your original thread that I use to prevent dart suck in unmodified wyes.

Bringing this back around to Zorn's wye mod, you can see just how much the CPVC "tongue" sits above the floor of the wye, as compared to the sch80 sleeve/flute.
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