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Please Read: Spherical Ammo.

A discussion session and proposal

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#26 SharpShot2

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 05:35 PM

Whether I should get 12.5mm for CPVC or 10mm for aluminium* barrels.
*Aluminium barrels are very good. They have a very smooth 'bore', are lightweight, and strong. But a little harder to work with; easy, but not as easy as PVC type products.

-Tidge.

Then I certainly think you should get it for CPVC. It's available to basically everyone; I'm not so sure about aluminum. Also, as you said, it would be much easier to work with.

-SharpShot(2)
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#27 NinjZ

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 06:41 PM

If you think spheres aren't aerodynamic at low velocity, have a look at short FBR cylinders; I'm not even sure how much worse that option is.

You guys need to read the whole thread damnit. I was saying that the foam marshmallows wont work as they will be like weighted FBR chunks. I wasnt saying Weighted FBR chunks is a better idea than spherical ammo. Geeze.
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#28 Ragornocks

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 08:24 PM

I'll tell you now that from my experiance, balls suck. Spherical objects are rarely used as projectiles now as a reason; nothing is more unpredictable than a sphere.

And I'm not sure how many people are gonna "conform" to this here.

But back to physics here...don't even get me started on spin. I've seen some crazy shit before, all pending on everything and nothing. Backspin theory? Yeah, it works. To a degree. Likewise with putting other degrees of spin on a ball. But when you do that, and you're working with something with so little mass, it's gonna be holy hell trying to control that after the barrel of whatever you're using. I've seen balls take some crazy turns of no reason at all; I've seen them also work perfectly fine. But just think back to the ol' days when they used molded lead balls in smoothbore barrels; there's a reason they changed to things like they use today. Now, let's not talk about the mass and velocity on all this shit, but still...balls suck.

Brass has a smoother bore than aluminum, by the way. Or that's what the old farts online say, atleast. I do know that it isn't used in firearms because of it's conductivity of heat, and how soft of a metal it is. Would be terrible for a barrel. Works fine for Nerf, though.

And if you want reusable paintballs, for any reason, use ReBalls. All other ones that are marketed suck, don't even try with them. ReBalls might cost a lot, but it's a quality product that's great to use.

If you're going ahead anyways, go for the CPVC. It's more availible (to the blind kids who can't seem to navigate a hardware store, atleast...), easier to work with, and easier to adapt to existing mods, ideally.

That's just my cynical take on the matter...carry on now.

EDIT: Oh, before I forget...don't bother with trying to cut grooves in the barrel or anything. None of that stuff is going to work at these velocities, trust me. Doesn't work in paintball, it's not going to work here.

Edited by Ragornocks, 07 January 2006 - 08:29 PM.

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#29 Event Horizon

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 09:35 PM

Personally, I'm pretty interested in rifling a barrel for some ball-type ammo to stabilize shots, and just for the sake of nerf modding.


This guy does rifled barrels for spud guns, most of the barrels are fairly large though. The smallest size is 1.5", i don't know if that helps.

Here's the url, not sure how to get the tags to work, sorry: http://www.spudtech.com/default.asp

Edit: ok, it sort of worked.

Edited by Event Horizon, 07 January 2006 - 09:38 PM.

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#30 davidbowie

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 10:29 PM

Event Horizon, Joel (the guy who runs Spudtech.com) has said many times that he will not rifle any other sizes of pipe. If you can get a .50 cal gun barrel, that might work.

Ragornrocks, don't just say backspin doesn't work at low velocities. It works a lot better with light projectiles like little foam balls (hey...). I have thrown dodgeballs with a fairly weak spin and had them veer up to 6 feet off course in the direction of spin. I have thrown pipe insulation with good backspin and have it actually turn around and come back to me in mid air. Backspin does work.

The Inventor Guy, is there any way you could have them fit well in 1/2" pvc? It's the most available barrel material, and it's super easy to work with.
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#31 Meaker VI

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 01:38 AM

Backspin theory? Yeah, it works. To a degree. Likewise with putting other degrees of spin on a ball. But when you do that, and you're working with something with so little mass...

Have you ever even heard of Airsofting? The mass of the pellet they use is less than .5 gram, and can get accuracy with the "Hopup" system at only 200 fps. I have cheap guns that I can shoot accurately to 30 feet, and that is with my pretty bad hand-eye coordination. It definately works, the question is will it work here? I still suggest we somehow test to see what we can do before we buy. Perhaps buying several of the reusable paintballs and other things suggested, for the purpose of testing, is in order. Or making the "safe bullets." Or whatever.

And as a remark to rifling the barrels, I would be extreamely skeptical if I heard of a working rifled nerf barrel.
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#32 taita cakes

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 01:58 AM

But there is density to be considered. You might even get an identical mass between a 14mm foam ball and a large BB, but the difference is density as well.

I say people deal with their own misconceptions of nerf made balls and look towards the future.
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#33 Shotty Master

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 11:52 AM

Heres a possibility: Instead of bying 4000 of those things, take a bb or two and make a tape ball around it, lightweight, your bb is the centrat weight, and you can make planty. Just a thought, might not work.
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#34 Event Horizon

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 12:03 PM

I think the premise behind ordering them though is that it wouldn't be as labour intensive as making stefans, or tape covered BB's for that matter.
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#35 Shotty Master

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 01:19 PM

True, but thats a reason nerf is different from PB or Airsoft: Ammo is cheap as dirt.
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#36 NinjZ

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

True, but thats a reason nerf is different from PB or Airsoft: Ammo is cheap as dirt.

Airsoft ammo is cheap as dirt too...I dont know where you get your ammo, but I get precision made .20g BBs in 5000 round jars for $9.99. That can last me a whole day and im a SAW gunner.

Back spin on foam balls should work even if they are bigger. The only real problem is making a hop-up system from scratch that works right.

Edited by NinjZ, 08 January 2006 - 03:15 PM.

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#37 Black Wrath

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 03:40 PM

Heres a possibility: Instead of bying 4000 of those things, take a bb or two and make a tape ball around it, lightweight, your bb is the centrat weight, and you can make planty. Just a thought, might not work.

How could you guarantee that the balls would actually be spheres? I know I can't make a perfect tape ball. The tape would also stick to the inside of the barrel, or it would just make friction because of all of the high points in the tape due to bending it into the shape.

Not a great idea, and it would take forever. You'd never have consistancy either.
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#38 Shotty Master

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 08:23 PM

It was just an idea. Trying to think of more economic solutions.
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#39 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 12:18 AM

The Inventor Guy, is there any way you could have them fit well in 1/2" pvc? It's the most available barrel material, and it's super easy to work with.

I would, if it wasn't for the fact that that would mean barrels with a larger volume. I will go with CPVC size, which is, in my case, 12.5mm. If everyone agrees to that, I'll make the sample order and get a quote on the final cost for such a size.

In regards to that faom pellet ammo for the marshmallow blaster, I got an email back

The foam pellets are VERY light.  100 of them only weigh 0.1 grams.  They
are comparable in size to a mini marshmallow, so they are pretty small as
well. The pellets are extremely soft due to the fact they are for childrenís play.


BTW people, if the ball ammo goes well, I'll be making and selling homemade gun kits (with ROF in mind) designed for the ammo. Also, taita_cakes is kinda working on this with me, so ask him shizzle too.

-Tidge.
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#40 Meaker VI

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:34 AM

I would agree that CPVC-size is probably the best size, because of the smaller barrel volume thing.

Since you've asked the marshmellow people, have you also asked the people who are making the custom foam pellets what weight they are? Or should be? I definately appreciate that you are actually getting the research done on this, and if you've already done it I missed it and am sorry.
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#41 PissBacon

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 05:34 PM

Heres a possibility: Instead of bying 4000 of those things, take a bb or two and make a tape ball around it, lightweight, your bb is the centrat weight, and you can make planty. Just a thought, might not work.

Covering a painful projectile with plastic tape will not make it any less painful.

And I believe it's already been emphasized, but weight is not the only issue of a projectile. It's ok for airsoft ammo to be so like because it's so tiny and thus has much lower wind resistance; a large foam ball with the same weight suffers much more drag. Why do you think throwing a large nerf ball at someone hurts much less than a small rock?
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#42 J cobbers

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 09:46 PM

I generally like the potential for this idea and have some comments.
1) if you are going to use a gravity feed as in paintball guns you'll want the foam to be slightly smaller than the barrel material so that they can roll into place, but not so much smaller that they will roll out the barrel.
2) To prevent air from escaping out a gravity feed system you'll need bolt mechanism to open and close between shots.
3) you will need a denser foam than FBR to sustain momentum. Unweighted stefan's don't go very far. On this vein something of a similar density to regular nerf ball ammo woudl probably do very well. I had a friend who converted a Brass Eagle Talon to fire nerf balls, he spraypainted the nerf balls which stiffened them and improved their accuracy. This might be worth trying with the scaled down ammo.
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#43 Ronster

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:32 PM

Will they be smaller or larger then airsoft bbs?
If they are smaller or around the same size you could easily use them as a less painfull substitute for airsoft. Hell, if you could, just use an airsoft gun, insted of worrying about having to find special PVC or aluminum. It could be a bit easier for those who either cant find the materials to make a gun to shoot the nerf stress balls, or just dont have the skills to make one.
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QUOTE(baghead @ Oct 25 2006, 09:55 AM) View Post
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#44 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:31 AM

I would "just use an airsoft gun" or "just use a paintball gun" if I didn't need a licence for it. It's also proving impossible to get airsoft guns into the country.

Ronster, tell me something. Do airsoft BB's fit nicely into 1/2" CPVC pipe? No? So then that must mean that these balls are bigger than an airsoft ball, right?
If there's someone who can't find any tubing with an ID or composition similar to CPVC, they must be very stupid.
I'm not going to make it THAT easy for people to just go and use guns already marketed that aren't Nerf. You'll also notice I said I will offer homemade gun kits or custom creations for those who can't make their own guns for this ammo. I would be selling them for a decent price, only the material cost and a bit for labor. Sorry if it sounded like I was being a bitch, heh, I sorta am sometimes.

J_cobbers: I am completely aware of that. I have gone through lots of breaking prototypes of paintball guns and semi-auto nerf guns. Homemades, that is. Thanks for the advice nontheless.

So, guys, I need your feedback on the size, good idea?

-Tidge.
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#45 Ronster

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:29 PM

Oh, ok.
So, they are more along the sizes of a paintball.
I thought they were much smaller.

Sorry for all the confusion.
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QUOTE(baghead @ Oct 25 2006, 09:55 AM) View Post
Ronster reminded me that I should have warned you all Prepare your Bladder for Imminent Release!!!!

#46 Meaker VI

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:24 AM

I would "just use an airsoft gun" or "just use a paintball gun" if I didn't need a licence for it. It's also proving impossible to get airsoft guns into the country.

Man, I had no idea the extent of privilages we've got here in America. Any local sports store sells (regular) guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, bows, and other weapons of all variaties. To anyone with a document to prove they are 18. I'm proud to be an American.

But to get back to the topic; The Inventor Guy, have you checked with the company you are presently looking at to find out how heavy these things are? That is probably the most important aspect for this and if you go and order 4000 and find them too light, you'll have blown alot of cash. I imagine they can give you an estimate of weight based on their materials and stuff.
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#47 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 02:57 AM

I would "just use an airsoft gun" or "just use a paintball gun" if I didn't need a licence for it. It's also proving impossible to get airsoft guns into the country.

Man, I had no idea the extent of privilages we've got here in America. Any local sports store sells (regular) guns, airsoft guns, paintball guns, bows, and other weapons of all variaties. To anyone with a document to prove they are 18. I'm proud to be an American.

You're proud to be American because you have easy access to lethal weapons provided you can prove you're 18?
Wow. That's...um...nevermind...
It's not hard to get access to weapons here, it's just hard to have anything imported. The most I've seen in a public shop is , swords, knives, slingshot stuff, a bow and accessories, a crossbow and shotgun and rifle ammuntion. That was in the one store.
Anyway, enough of that kind of chat, on topic:

No, I haven't yet, but I am on it.

-Tidge.
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#48 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:34 PM

Look what I found. I typed in polyethylene (the stuff FBR is made from) into this site and found polyethylene balls. They come in 1/2" too. Go to this site.

Then in the search column type in polyethylene. Then scroll down and click "Other entries with the word "Polyethylene""

Then click on High density polyethylene balls and bam there you go a list of ball diameters. No $4000 order just $10.73 for a pack of 100.

11 Different sizes from 0.125" to 1"

It says Opaque is white but the backing is plain black. Does this mean this stuff is white or black?

What do you guys think?

Edited by Forsaken_angel24, 13 January 2006 - 09:47 PM.

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#49 hoshiadam

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:38 PM

HDPE isn't foam. It is the stuff that cutting boards are made out of.

Adam
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#50 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 09:40 PM

HDPE isn't foam.  It is the stuff that cutting boards are made out of.

Adam

If thats true I apologize. I could have sworn polyethylene was the stuff used in Fbr.

They also carry low density polyethylene balls.

Edited by Forsaken_angel24, 13 January 2006 - 09:41 PM.

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