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Please Read: Spherical Ammo.

A discussion session and proposal

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#1 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 10:16 PM

Okay.
So, I'm trying to get rid of Stefans. Well, I'm trying to stop using them.
(Smoking ad: Quit stefans, while you still can.)
I thought of using ball ammo, like Paintball and airsoft do.
I got a Stress ball from somewhere somehow and I thought they'd be good Nerf ammo if they were smaller.

The CONCEPT
So, I'm ordering custom made Stress balls.The size of 14mm. I'm going to go ahead with this order unless I can find another cheap source of Rubberised foam balls like this in any size less than 3/4" and more than 1/4".

Advantages of Ball ammo in Nerf-type blasters:
-Hop-up systems can be installed
-More versatility in homemade designs and concepts
-More aerodynamic than cylindrical ammo
-Colours - easier to find
-Resuable
-More consistant size
-May bounce off targets, fun fun fun!
-Soft foam of the ball will mean less pain upon impact and better seal in the barrel

Disadvantages of Ball ammo in Nerf-type blasters:
-Barrel and loading system conversions may be effortful
-May bounce off of targets, may result in loss of ammo
-Will only work in some modified stock barrels, will work best in extruded tube materials.

What I need from YOU
Since the minimum order on such a custom product is something like 4000, I NEED to know if people will buy these. I think the cost may be 25c a piece, but we'll see what the cost is.

-Will you buy these?
= How much are you willing to pay?
-= Would you pre-pay towards the manufacture cost?
= How many would you buy at once?


The standard manufacture process includes a one-colour print on it. Not having a print on the balls will not lower the price.

-Should I get a print?
= What should the print be?
-What should the size of the ball be?
-What colour should the balls be? (No pink or metallic, yellow is standard colour)
= Multiple colours? ie Red balls and blue balls?

-Do you know of any products with a similar? (NOT reusable paintballs)
= Are they easily available?
= Come in decent quantity?
= Decent price?
= Decent quality?


I'm just basically looking for an alternative ammunition, prefferably spherical.

NOTE:If the the manufacturer will allow it, I will request a sample box of the balls, and I'll send them off to those most interested for a review and product test.

If you can help me out that'd be great. Suggestions, questions and answers allowed. Telling me to airsoft or paintball, just stick with nerf darts or use paintballs is bad.

Thank you,

-Tidge.
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#2 davidbowie

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 10:40 PM

Different colors for different teams might come in handy.

Spherical ammo would be much easier to make hoppers for (pipe), and (I think) would do well for shotgun loads.

Could you possibly make them in two colors, like PMI paintballs?

If not, good old Shaun the sheep would do nicely :P

Is the size defininte? Can you try to get balls that fit really well in 1/2" PVC, as it's more widely available than PETG or brass?
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#3 WratH

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 10:58 PM

Try this.

Not sure about the weight or size of these, but you asked.
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#4 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 11:13 PM

davidbowie; 50/50 colours aren't an option at the moment, but you've caught onto what I'm thinking about the use of these balls.
The size is NOT definite yet, hence my request for suggestions of size. I will tally up the ID of CPVC for the size of these ball ammuntions. What is the ID of 1/2" CPVC?

WratH: Thanks alot, that does help. I will enquire about the size and weight of these "foam pellets"

-Tidge.
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#5 SneakUP

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 11:54 PM

I am planning on making a gun from pvc to shoot paintballs, any way you could look at the desighns of the phantom paintball pump guns. Most of them dont use hoppers they use spring magazines. You could try to refer to them. Just trying to help

Edited by SneakUP, 05 January 2006 - 11:56 PM.

GOT FOAM?!

#6 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 05 January 2006 - 11:56 PM

No... this is about the ammo itself, not loading. I've got that under control. PLease read the opening post again.

-Tidge,
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#7 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 12:11 AM

you could send a sample of pvc to the company and say I want it to fit in there.

The biggest issue here is they have to be better than stefans for such an investment to be made.

For range you would in fact need small balls(I'm sure sombody is gonna quote this).

The next question is the weight. Is the weight of the foam going to be enough to withstand some of the stronger guns or is it just for the smaller guns. Can the balls be modded to be heavier. Like slicing one open,burning a hole dropping the weight in, then hot gluing the slice shut.

How barrel friendly is the foam gonna be? Is it going to slide like a stefan or catch easier?

I am eager to find/use a new kind of ammo but I dont think this will work.

Imagine this. you could load a barrel with pacman like balls and fire those at someone and they'd go in all directions.

Look at it this way. Even if the order goes down only a portion of nerfers will have the ammo. They will have to mod their guns differently or interchangable barrels differently. Eventually there will be only a certain amount balls left and the price will raise from whoever the main sellers are. When all the balls are gone I doubt that anyone would want to pool their cash together again and order them.

If it were something like colored FBR thats different only because either you have colored stefans or you have grey/black/white ones. Instead of either you have balls or you dont (sure thats gonna get quoted too.). I am just saying it sucks hardcore because this stuff can only be ordered in massive ammounts.
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#8 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 12:43 AM

Keeping in mind, the main reason I'm going to use these is so I can make and use mroe homemades.
I do agree with you, though.
Yes, if they need to be heavier, that's what I'd do. I tried this with polystyrene balls, and that worked. I would keep using those if they didn't set to compression so easily.

-Tidge.
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#9 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 12:46 AM

What about styrofoam balls at craft stores? Would they work? I saw a pack that might work but didnt buy it because I would rather know they fit for sure then buy them. I am going to bring a peice of PVC to the store and see if i can open it.
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#10 boltsniper

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 01:12 AM

-More aerodynamic than cylindrical ammo

Not quite. At low velocities, spheres have pretty high drag. It is pretty counter intuitive, I know. Not that it really makes a difference in this case....

Nice thinking. I like the idea of having them made like a foam stress ball. That would give it a good skin layer for barrel seals and whatnot and also make it soft and flexible enough to not cause too much pain.

I`m a little worried that they might be too light being made of so little material. Just guessing. Trying to picture a cubic cenimeter of foam and its mass....

I would be interested in purchasing some if they were available. I don`t know if I would pay $0.25 a round but maybe $0.10 a round for a pack of 100. I could handle that.

Can you really get these custom ordered? have you actually talked with any manufacturers? Or is this just an idea at the moment?
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#11 taita cakes

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 01:35 AM

You've already heard my response to this, but I'll just reiterate for everyone else.
I've been waiting so long for someone to have a proper crack at ball ammo, its far superior to stefans and darts in so many ways, and even though people bad mouth their ball ammo in their guns, it's a completely angle. New ammo, and a whole new range of homemades that you can create with these.

Just think, it's no longer restricted to spring and gasses, you can now have rotary and motor powered guns again, just like the Rapid Fire Rev Shot. Personally I am planning a motorised assault rifle, but I've learned not to talk up things.

I'd invest. Let's think about that turn. Invest. Not donate, not loan, invest.
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#12 Black Wrath

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 01:44 AM

So you're hoping to make money off of this, Taita?
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#13 Meaker VI

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 01:50 AM

I'd definately say that functional, available ball ammuntion is an excellent idea. But I just typed in "foam balls 'custom sizes'" into Google and got almost 700 results. The one I clicked was Here, and it had all kinds of links to others; the first two being Here and Here. Both places would custom make plastic balls in any size we would need, and the second one was more specific in saying that they would make hallow, or (if I understand correctly) solid with a different filling, and out of plastic and rubber. Both had Teflon listed, which I believe is the super-slick stuff they use for pots and pans and stuff.

In any event, I think that before going ahead and doing this we need to do a TON of research. Getting a set of the marshmellow pellets that Wraith mentioned might not hurt, since they had a smaller pack of 50 for $5 that we could play with. Also, both the above mentioned companies wanted to give quotes; we could probably ask them what (if anything) would work best for what we are doing. If we really want to do this, it looks like we will need to look around and see what we need/want before getting 5000 or whatever.
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#14 NinjZ

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 02:41 AM

As for weighting, I think this is common sence considering we weight stefans...Just get an exacto knife, make a small incision and insert a fishign weight. Inject a little hotglue and there you go.

Those foam marshmallow pellets probably wont be too good. I made a 3/8" stefan with similar design ( like its a little longer than it is wider. Some were also even on all sides ) weighted from the middle. They spin in the air and usually curve. Ones that did manage to hold a strait line went pretty damn far from my Crossbow. They would still sputter though losing range ( didnt get as much range as a stefan though ). Circular ammo is definately the way to go as long as we figure out an EASY way to make them fly strait.

As bolt said, spheres at low speeds are actually not that stable, same as a disc. Those designs are ment for super sonic to light speed means of propultion.

EDIT: I was looking at that one custom ball sight...Rubber ammo = bad. The stuff seems like bouncey ball type rubber you get from a vending machine...That shit hurts at high speeds....FOAM is the way to go.

Edited by NinjZ, 06 January 2006 - 02:43 AM.

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#15 hoshiadam

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:19 AM

Actionball has foam balls used in paintball guns available. About $0.50 per ball though. I've seem them, they are pretty soft. Never felt one shot from a paintball gun though.

For homemade balls, that can be weighted easily, why not try crayola Model Magic foam? I've seen unweighted ones used in the same situations as Actionball. They are used in spring guns.

Adam
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#16 WratH

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 11:48 AM

They spin in the air and usually curve... They would still sputter though losing range

The answer to that is hop-up. For those who don't know what hop-up is: It puts back spin on the ball and it goes up out of the barrel, resulting in better range and accuracy.
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#17 Meaker VI

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 04:02 PM

And as for those sites I posted links to, I know that things like solid plastic or rubber balls would hurt, but the point was more that we should research what we want to do and what will work before buying large amounts of the stuff.
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#18 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 08:15 PM

Yeah. I'd like to be able to order as little as possible. But the default minimum order is 4000. I might be able to go less, we'll see.

-Tidge.
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#19 taita cakes

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:20 PM

It's not that I want to make money off this, it's just I don't want to be down $100 bucks or so for a few months without getting a little interest. I am saving up for my American trip after all, that's like, $7,500+.

Tidge the moment you get some send just like 10 my way or something so I can at least test it. Have you seen a sample or anything at all?
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#20 NinjZ

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Posted 06 January 2006 - 10:49 PM

They spin in the air and usually curve... They would still sputter though losing range

The answer to that is hop-up. For those who don't know what hop-up is: It puts back spin on the ball and it goes up out of the barrel, resulting in better range and accuracy.

I'm not talking about balls, im talking about short FBR chunks.

It's going ot be ratehr difficult to make a hop-up unit to make these work. I was thinking the curved barrels Tippman paintball uses to get backspin on paintballs might be a better direction to go in.
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#21 davidbowie

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 12:35 AM

It would be a lot easier to have something (o-ring? chunk of rubber? bolt?) protruding into the top of the barrel to give it backspin. It's pretty simple, and you don't need a curved barrel.
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#22 PissBacon

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 01:14 AM

Actionball has foam balls used in paintball guns available.  About $0.50 per ball though.  I've seem them, they are pretty soft.  Never felt one shot from a paintball gun though.

For homemade balls, that can be weighted easily, why not try crayola Model Magic foam?  I've seen unweighted ones used in the same situations as Actionball.  They are used in spring guns.

Adam

Don't ignore this; this is very close to what is sought (actually, the idea of actionball is as close as it gets without being nerf). These seem to be properly weighted considering they're fired from paintball guns. There are still a few things to account for, such as the potential difference in barrel size, and the poor aerodynamics at low speeds (price is also quite high).

I'm not talking about balls, im talking about short FBR chunks.


If you think spheres aren't aerodynamic at low velocity, have a look at short FBR cylinders; I'm not even sure how much worse that option is.

Personally, I'm pretty interested in rifling a barrel for some ball-type ammo to stabilize shots, and just for the sake of nerf modding.

Though the current state of nerf will stay, if this grows successful I can imagine an increased gravitation towards paintballing, since anything we create will just be struggling to emulate the design and performance of professionally engineered paintball guns.
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#23 The Inventor Guy

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 05:46 AM

The point for me to venture in the world of the wily ball ammo is so I can shoot something not quite Nerf but not quite paintball. Like I said, I'm looking for alternative ammo. I might go 10mm (3/8") or even 15mm (5/8") for the diameter of the ammo. I think I will order 13mm, 12.5 being the ID of CPVC (UPVC Electrical conduit where I come from). I don't know. I need to place the order soon, so I need help deciding what size I should get. Whether I should get 12.5mm for CPVC or 10mm for aluminium* barrels.
*Aluminium barrels are very good. They have a very smooth 'bore', are lightweight, and strong. But a little harder to work with; easy, but not as easy as PVC type products.

I was also thinking of perhaps making "Safe Bullet" shaped moulds (out of clay or such) and making my own pellets with simply Hot Glue. Just lube the mold, inject some hot glue, wait for the pellets to cool, then remove and use.

Help us all out here guys. I know alot of people wo are tired of using Stefans simply because of the material restrictions the pose.

-Tidge.
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#24 Illadar

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 01:49 PM

In my experance aluminium isn't a very good barrel because it has a tendance to dent, the last time I used it, it had dented several times just bringing it home. I suppose it would be fine if you could get it thicker though.
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#25 Ronster

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Posted 07 January 2006 - 04:13 PM

In my experance aluminium isn't a very good barrel because it has a tendance to dent, the last time I used it, it had dented several times just bringing it home. I suppose it would be fine if you could get it thicker though.

He could sleeve the aluminium with CPVC or something to protect it and keep it from denting.
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