52 replies to this topic

[KaneTheMediocre]

These domes are still molded with a dome mold. However, unlike the 2-piece system which requires the tooling be rather precise AND the silicone to cure anaerobically, these can be made with cheap ordinary hardware store silicone and a crude dome mold. The downside is that since the domes are centered manually, you need skill and patience to make them well.

[edit]
The point of these darts is to provide greater safety than darts using hard materials (ie slugs, hot glue domes), AND to provide drastically drastically reduced aerodynamic drag. Although the rubber domes are more painful than a felt padded dart for equal kinetic energies, a lower powered blaster can be made to achieve the same effective range with much less kinetic energy than would be required of a slug dart.

Typical weight for this type of dart is 1.2g
[/edit]

You need some blanks with holes in them to form the stem. The hole size isn't critical, but I'd recommend 1/4". I used 5/16" holes because the blanks were pre-drilled a few months ago for use with VANS. The tips of them are faded from sitting on my porch in the sun for 3 months.


Squirt some silicone into the domes on a dome-mold. Make sure the domes are completely filled to avoid bubbles.

[edit]
You can make dome-shaped depressions with a bit called a ball end mill (Such as mcmaster 8900A32 for $27.31). Getting them to a consistent depth (.188" for me) will be tricky depending on what tools you are using.
I hope to get some more molds CNCd and distributed for people (including myself), I'm waiting on a quote as of 8-27-12.
[/edit]

Press down on the mold with something flat, and carefully slide it away. Alternately, you can slowly and carefully wipe with something flat. A flat, smooth bottom to the domes is ideal, but don't despair if they are a little bit rough, as the placement process tends to fill in minor irregularities. Don't take more than 15 minutes total for this step, or you may have problems with the silicone forming a skin. Then wait for them to cure at least 36 hours.



Demold the domes. Here, I didn't do a good enough job wiping off the excess silicone, which made them easier to demold, but added a descrting step to get clean domes off of the sheet.


Squirt some silicone in the holes. Leave them SLIGHTLY overfilled.


Put the domes on the filled holes. Press down on them a bit to get good contact between the dome and uncured silicone, but ideally not so much that silicone starts oozing out the sides.


Now you need to wait for them to cure. They can be handled after 24 hours, but I dont recommend shooting them for at least 48. Once that's done, they're ready to shoot, but I recommend some quality control.


Some of my domes were significantly off-center:


Some had excess goo oozing out of the sides:


Some were just right:


And Snickers is way better than me at making them just right:


I'd guess about 1/4 off center, 1/4 too gooey, 1/2 just right (I didn't count). Most of the "too gooey" could be recovered into the "just right" category with some descrting, although some had too much scrt or were also off center. The off center darts are probably fireable, but not very accurate.

It is well known that these domes don't fire reliably out of a conventional wye hopper. Aside from the difficult to make alternative hopper designs, there are a couple ways to make them hopper. One is to spray cooking oil on the inside of your wye, which will get it sticky and nasty over time.

Another way, which I just discovered/tested, is to keep all your darts in a bag full of cornstarch. (Pictured darts are actually the blue-silicone 2-part mold darts, as I wanted to give the new darts more cure time before firing them)


This is less gross, but probably equally messy. You really need to plan on one side of your pants being coated in cornstarch from wiping your hands, and the rest of your clothes to get a few splotches as well. The darts will fire through a hopper several times without being recoated in the cornstarch bag in dry conditions. I assume that rain will completely ruin this.

Also, running around with a bag of white powder strapped to your hip will make people think that you're carrying cocaine. So you should label your bag of cornstarched darts to avoid confusion.
'

Edited by KaneTheMediocre, 27 November 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[ShaNayNay]

Seems legit. How do these compare to Vans and slugs range and pain wise? Would you consider these to be safe darts, even though they don't have padding on the front?

Edited by ShaNayNay, 26 August 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[KaneTheMediocre]

Seems legit. How do these compare to Vans and slugs range and pain wise? Would you consider these to be safe darts, even though they don't have padding on the front?

These are more painful than VANS or slugs, but less painful than glue domes. They fly as far as glue domes. And I consider them to be safer than slugs, even though they normally hurt more.

[Y-Brik]

How do you recommend drilling the dome molds? Is there a specific bit for it?

[hamoidar]

These are more painful than VANS or slugs, but less painful than glue domes. They fly as far as glue domes. And I consider them to be safer than slugs, even though they normally hurt more.

If these silicone darts are more painful than metal-weighted slugs; why make them?

[Bchamp22795]

If these silicone darts are more painful than metal-weighted slugs; why make them?

Making theses darts are not about making painless darts. It is about making a dart that is "fool proof" safe. These are safer than slugs in making them, because no matter how badly you suck at making them, there will never be exposed metal. Also, if they happen to break apart upon hitting something hard (a nerf blaster, playground equipment, etc), then the "shrapnel" won't contain a metal striking surface.

This may also be intended as a replacement for glue domes, for those who make those instead of slugs because of the range benefits.

[snickers]

I made myself a mold out of a clear 3/4in 30X15in cutting board. I filled the drilled holes with silicone and waiting for them to try. I will post more when they are finished.

Edited by snickers, 26 August 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[shmmee]

I really like where this is going. I've been thinking about trying to either "free hand" a dome onto a VANS, or siliconing a dart tip and briefly pressing the dart into a mold dusted with cornstarch to shape the dome. If a dome is shaped and removed from the mold to cure - do you think it will hold its shape? That way only one dome would be needed to shape domes as you went, instead of needing a bunch of domes to make a sheet. A dome centered under a 1/2" hole could produce consistently centered domes (in theory)

What's the average finished weight of your domed darts? The main killing point to VANS that I've attempted has been that they've been too light.

[Phoenix66]

How do you recommend drilling the dome molds? Is there a specific bit for it?

Yes, I would like to know this. I'm thinking about doing this for Foam in the Fort IV. In comparison to slugs, how easy are these to mass produce? I really don't care if they have metal in them or not, just as long as there safe enough, (I guess you could say) and are easy to make/mass producible.

[KaneTheMediocre]

You can make dome-shaped depressions with a bit called a ball end mill (Such as mcmaster 8900A32 for $27.31). Getting them to a consistent depth (.188" for me) will be tricky depending on what tools you are using.
I hope to get some more molds CNCd and distributed for people (including myself), I'm waiting on a quote as of 8-27-12.

The point of these darts is to provide greater safety than darts using hard materials (ie slugs, hot glue domes), AND to provide drastically drastically reduced aerodynamic drag. Although the rubber domes are more painful than a felt padded dart for equal kinetic energies, a lower powered blaster can be made to achieve the same effective range with much less kinetic energy than would be required of a slug dart.

Typical weight for this type of dart is 1.2g

[Daniel Beaver]

AND to provide drastically drastically reduced aerodynamic drag.

Hopefully you aren't falling into the trap that "better ranges is always better". The relatively bad aerodynamic performance of slugs is one of their key advantages, IMHO, since they help level the playing field and speed up the tempo of the game.

[HasreadCoC]

Hopefully you aren't falling into the trap that "better ranges is always better". The relatively bad aerodynamic performance of slugs is one of their key advantages, IMHO, since they help level the playing field and speed up the tempo of the game.

With that said, having an equally safe, equally painless, higher range alternative around as an option would be nice for those who would like to use it at their wars, instead of, say, metal and domes.

[Phoenix66]

Do you have a part number for the HDPE sheet?

[KaneTheMediocre]

Hopefully you aren't falling into the trap that "better ranges is always better". The relatively bad aerodynamic performance of slugs is one of their key advantages, IMHO, since they help level the playing field and speed up the tempo of the game.

I agree better ranges is not always better. If it were always better, I'd show up to the nerf wars with a hunting rifle.

However, as far as the poor aerodynamic performance of slugs being an advantage, I'd have to say that your HO is off it's gourd. Crappy darts are pretty much the worst possible way to level the playing field. I agree that the playing field did need leveling back the primitive stefan era, but this largely due to poor blaster and dart regulation. Some people were showing up with nerf guns and nerf darts, and other people were showing up with high-powered pneumatic guns with plastic bullets. Nowadays, almost everyone in the hobby has access to something in between those extremes, and most have a few loaners to help out the noobs. Combining this shift in technology (largely spurred by hoppers) with a reasonable limit on blaster power, I think we can have a level playing field.

Do you have a part number for the HDPE sheet?

No. Go to mcmaster and find the sheet in whatever size you want. It's really not that hard.

In comparison to slugs, how easy are these to mass produce? I really don't care if they have metal in them or not, just as long as there safe enough, (I guess you could say) and are easy to make/mass producible.

They are pretty much only mass producible, as making one at a time would be a colossal waste of time. I spend about half as much time per dart on these as I would on slugs, but I'm really slow at making slugs. I'd guess that for a good, experienced slug maker making quality slugs vs a noob rubber dome dart maker (We're all new at this), the slugmaker would make about twice as many darts per hour.

I really like where this is going. I've been thinking about trying to either "free hand" a dome onto a VANS, or siliconing a dart tip and briefly pressing the dart into a mold dusted with cornstarch to shape the dome. If a dome is shaped and removed from the mold to cure - do you think it will hold its shape? That way only one dome would be needed to shape domes as you went, instead of needing a bunch of domes to make a sheet. A dome centered under a 1/2" hole could produce consistently centered domes (in theory)

No, I don't think the dome will hold it's shape outside of the mold until it is cured. If you can make a cornstarch press technique work, that MIGHT allow the dome side to partially cure the surface enough to let them cure outside of the mold, but I'm not optimistic.

[Elmo1234]

I like the idea, I do think that to a point, longer range darts can be better. No I don't mean Slingshots or 3/0's, I mean single BB's and the like.I don't mind slugs, but I tend to play at mid to long range, say 60 to 80 feet but that is just my play style, that's why I still like domes. It's not like Slugs make the game less fun or anything.It is nice to try to remove metal from darts.

[BK201]

It could be possible to make a more cylindrical mold for the heads of the darts. This would make it possible to have a metal free dart like Kane wants with less pain involved due to the broader striking surface, and the same leveling effect on ranges like slugs offer. That would be cool for anyone looking for a metal free slug alternative...though there would be the same problems with hopper feed that any silicon darts have, possibly even worse due to the consistently wider head of the dart.

Edited by BK201, 27 August 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[Langley]

However, as far as the poor aerodynamic performance of slugs being an advantage, I'd have to say that your HO is off it's gourd.

FALSE

Their aerodynamic properties level out the range curve and mitigate overpowered dick guns. The ease of defining how a slug should be made has completely halted dart performance creep in areas where they are required. This is basically the main reason why slugs are used on the east coast. Even you should be a fan, considering that they allow people to still remain relatively competitive when using stock darts. I would go so far as to say that the apparent velocity, range, shape and fuzzy tip of improved ryan-style slug darts makes them more legitimately toy-like than powder-coated rubber tipped dome darts to authorities and bystanders.

Slugs are simple and unambiguous. You can visually identify a slug that is made to spec. In addition to requiring special hoppers/lube/dart storage and other absurdities, your silicone domes are difficult to regulate and inspect. If they were widely adopted, dart mass would vary greatly depending on foam density, hole depth and diameter, silicone composition, tip mold shape and volume etc. It is also potentially easy to conceal a metal weight in a silicone tip. None of these problems are easy to identify with a cursory inspection.

If you want your dart designs to gain widespread acceptance, you should start considering performance regulation as a factor. It has been the most effective method of moderating blaster performance thus far. If you sincerely think that you're going to get people to start using chronos, postage scales, etc for regulating blasters, especially when you've threatened running over people's property with Ryan's car, you're off your gourd.

[KaneTheMediocre]

Their aerodynamic properties level out the range curve and mitigate overpowered dick guns. The ease of defining how a slug should be made has completely halted dart performance creep in areas where they are required. This is basically the main reason why slugs are used on the east coast. Even you should be a fan, considering that they allow people to still remain relatively competitive when using stock darts. I would go so far as to say that the apparent velocity, range, shape and fuzzy tip of improved ryan-style slug darts makes them more legitimately toy-like than powder-coated rubber tipped dome darts to authorities and bystanders.

Yes, the blast of "smoke" doesn't help things diplomatically. It's a stopgap measure until we learn an easy way to make better hoppers. If you prefer, you can spray cooking oil in your wye, which won't look as scary, but will probably become a sticky mess over time. The cooking oil is also probably much more rain tolerant.

If you want to use poorly performing darts to give the illusion of safety and game balance regulation, I can't stop you. But that method doesn't actually work as a game balance mechanic because dart velocity largely determines a blaster's effectiveness at a given range. Which is why people are generally not competitive when using stock darts, even when both nerfers are within each other's range.

Slugs are simple and unambiguous. You can visually identify a slug that is made to spec. In addition to requiring special hoppers/lube/dart storage and other absurdities, your silicone domes are difficult to regulate and inspect. If they were widely adopted, dart mass would vary greatly depending on foam density, hole depth and diameter, silicone composition, tip mold shape and volume etc. It is also potentially easy to conceal a metal weight in a silicone tip. None of these problems are easy to identify with a cursory inspection.

None of those are safety problems, except for possibly the concealed metal weight, which can be done with equal ease in a slug dart. Even then, a rubber dart with a concealed steel ball is still safer than a slug. You seem to have "weight" confused with "kinetic energy". One depends on the dart, the other depends on the blaster.

Furthermore, these silicone darts can be made to weigh as much as 1.5g. Given the blaster power I'm allowing and the aerodynamics of these darts, you really won't gain anything performance wise by making heavier darts.

If you want your dart designs to gain widespread acceptance, you should start considering performance regulation as a factor. It has been the most effective method of moderating blaster performance thus far. If you sincerely think that you're going to get people to start using chronos, postage scales, etc for regulating blasters, especially when you've threatened running over people's property with Ryan's car, you're off your gourd.

I consider safety regulation to be more important than performance regulation. And if we're using safe darts, I can do both by regulating blasters. Feel free to remain skeptical until I build a simple, cheap ballistic pendulum and post a writeup this weekend. Admittedly this measures momentum (mv) rather than kinetic energy (mv^2/2), but if the same darts are fired at the test fixture for every blaster it will still provide an accurate comparative measurement.

[Langley]

You seem to have "weight" confused with "kinetic energy". One depends on the dart, the other depends on the blaster.

I understand the difference. Due to drag, kinetic energy is dependent on both the dart and the blaster. I may be wrong, but my understanding was that dart drag causes diminishing returns on kinetic energy and range. Also, kinetic energy is only relevant to safety and pain factor, and I am satisfied with slugs on both counts. The only possible advantage of silicone darts that I can see is that they might be perceived as safer by certain parties who's opinion I might give a fuck about. That's the only argument you've ever made for your dart crusade that makes even the slightest sense to me. Slugs are superior to your non-metal darts in every other respect except for safety, in which case they are merely 'adequate'.

It's not that I don't care about safety, it's that no one has yet presented me with any evidence that properly made slugs are a danger to someone wearing eye protection at a war with a reasonable and enforceable set of blaster restrictions. I have been to at least 2000% more wars than you in the last year, and in that time the only safety issues we've had were tree related. Hell, even poorly made slugs seem to be fine. There were several hundred on the field at Cata that were falling apart in the bag before they could be fired once, and I didn't hear any reports of broken skin or scratched corneas despite all the headshots that the melee guys were taking. I just feel like being forced to use silicone darts is like being forced to take off my shoes at the airport, but more onerous.

[KaneTheMediocre]

I understand the difference. Due to drag, kinetic energy is dependent on both the dart and the blaster.

Drag doesn't have much effect at point blank range. Since it's the worst case scenario, it's the one I'm concerned about.

The only possible advantage of silicone darts that I can see is that they might be perceived as safer by certain parties who's opinion I might give a fuck about. That's the only argument you've ever made for your dart crusade that makes even the slightest sense to me. Slugs are superior to your non-metal darts in every other respect except for safety, in which case they are merely 'adequate'.

The perception of safety is critical for gaining acceptance outside of the Nerfhaven bubble. It's only slightly less important to me than actual safety.

And these are, as discussed, drastically superior in terms of aerodynamic performance. Probably durability as well, but that is as yet unproven.

It's not that I don't care about safety, it's that no one has yet presented me with any evidence that properly made slugs are a danger to someone wearing eye protection at a war with a reasonable and enforceable set of blaster restrictions. I have been to at least 2000% more wars than you in the last year, and in that time the only safety issues we've had were tree related. Hell, even poorly made slugs seem to be fine. There were several hundred on the field at Cata that were falling apart in the bag before they could be fired once, and I didn't hear any reports of broken skin or scratched corneas despite all the headshots that the melee guys were taking. I just feel like being forced to use silicone darts is like being forced to take off my shoes at the airport, but more onerous.

I know that you've been to at least 100 wars in the past year, and I'm jealous. I have seen some minor injuries from slugs (Enough to draw blood, just barely), but nothing serious. I'm not capable of forcing you or anyone to use silicone darts, nor would I if I could. I just plan to encourage their use in the midwest, and to ban hard material darts at the wars I host. Then, once the midwest has universally adopted those standards, you guys on the east coast can start using them and pretend that you supported them all along.

I don't know about the west coast and Canada. I just gave up on them.

[Langley]

When someone rational who doesn't take me seriously enough to care that I am totally missing the point of everything ever (probably Ryan) designs a metal free dart that is comparable to slugs in performance, cost, effort, compatibility with existing equipment, and enforceability, you guys on the east coast can start using them and I can pretend that I am somehow responsible for it.

Fixed that for you.

I would be perfectly happy using no-metal darts if they satisfied a very basic set of criteria. I see the (relatively minor) advantage they could potentially have over what we use now. The designs you have been posting do not fulfill those criteria. I doubt that any of your designs would be adopted within the 'NerfHaven Bubble', which is where you will find the majority of wars that would allow homemade darts. Outside of the 'bubble' there are readily available mass produced third party alternatives, not to mention the elite line of stock darts.

As of right now, you are basically spamming the forums. Posting a dart design that hasn't been tested at a war is only marginally less ridiculous than posting an ms paint diagram of a homemade you haven't built yet. Twice you've posted new threads about darts that had barely cured when you posted them, which objectively failed as darts when you actually tried using them at a war. Given that this has become a pattern, and that there is actually an appropriate place for this sort of thing, you can consider this your first warning. In the future, I suggest one or more of the following:

• Waiting until you hit upon something that works so well at a real nerf war that most other attendees actually want to make some for themselves, and then posting a writeup.
• Designing a dart or glue-able dart-tip for your possibly imaginary target demographic, having it mass produced, and offering it for sale.
• Leveraging your incredible charisma and charm to start your own nerf forum for people who share your bizarre priorities.
• Rage-quitting in favor of NRes

[KaneTheMediocre]

I would be perfectly happy using no-metal darts if they satisfied a very basic set of criteria. I see the (relatively minor) advantage they could potentially have over what we use now. The designs you have been posting do not fulfill those criteria. I doubt that any of your designs would be adopted within the 'NerfHaven Bubble', which is where you will find the majority of wars that would allow homemade darts. Outside of the 'bubble' there are readily available mass produced third party alternatives, not to mention the elite line of stock darts.

As of right now, you are basically spamming the forums. Posting a dart design that hasn't been tested at a war is only marginally less ridiculous than posting an ms paint diagram of a homemade you haven't built yet. Twice you've posted new threads about darts that had barely cured when you posted them, which objectively failed as darts when you actually tried using them at a war. Given that this has become a pattern, and that there is actually an appropriate place for this sort of thing, you can consider this your first warning. In the future, I suggest one or more of the following:

• Waiting until you hit upon something that works so well at a real nerf war that most other attendees actually want to make some for themselves, and then posting a writeup.
• Designing a dart or glue-able dart-tip for your possibly imaginary target demographic, having it mass produced, and offering it for sale.
• Leveraging your incredible charisma and charm to start your own nerf forum for people who share your bizarre priorities.
• Rage-quitting in favor of NRes

Wow, I'm not even sure where to begin with this.

1. Every dart type I have posted has been tested quite thoroughly, and known problems have been disclosed. The nature of hoppers is basically magic, so it's not uncommon for a dart design to work perfectly for a week, then not work at all the next week (or day, or month), and then work perfectly again the week after. Anyone who's spent time trying to develop better darts for hoppers has experienced this or not tested their darts enough.

2. I'm curious what wars, and what darts you refer to when you say that they have "objectively failed" at every war they were used. The VANS were never used at a war you attended, although I admit they didn't hopper well at the one war I did try them at this summer (Lockport). Hopefully I can be forgiven for thinking that the thousands of shots fired by myself and Ryan indicated useable, if imperfect, performance and reliability. The rubber domes have been used at 2 wars, the first time at APOC 2011 with only marginal success (This was the cotton-in-wye-hoppers), and the second time at the aforementioned Lockport war where they worked perfectly with the 45 conduit hopper that I used.

3. I don't know if you noticed, but most homemade blasters and modifications aren't war tested before they are posted. Many aren't even finished, but they generally avoid your ire so long as they do more than show off the blaster. If you're going to hold darts to a different standard than blasters, that's fine, but you should make that clear before you accuse someone of spamming the forums, and you should do so consistently at least within the dart forum.

4. I didn't start this thread to flame people about the evils of slugs, I'm just trying to share my knowledge of dartmaking with the community. In fact, I was a strong advocate of slugs as an acceptable stopgap measure to make hoppers work while avoiding glue domes. If you think my darts all suck balls you can and should say so. If you think they're pointless because you think slugs are better in every way, you should say so. However, if I address all of the complaints you can come up with (including acknowledging cases where your points had merit), you probably should not threaten administrator action unless it's warranted for some other reason.

[Langley]

Wow, I'm not even sure where to begin with this.

• Dicks
• Dicks
• Dicks
• Cocks
• Butts

The RTV domes stopped working in hoppers specifically modified to fire them after a few rounds, and the VANS ripped themselves apart after no more than two rounds of play, which probably equates to being fired two, maybe three times in a row per dart. Your darts suck balls. Slugs are better in every way. My concerns have not been addressed.

I think it's fair to tell you that from this point on, you should war test your darts before posting another entirely new thread about a design that hasn't been proven to consistently work in most people's blasters. There is a more appropriate place for photos of what I would consider to be a work in progress. There are already two comprehensive writeups for dart designs that are about as useful as those shotshells everyone went nuts for last year. There are two more new threads you've posted in the last week, one of which could have been a reply to one of the many existing silicone dome threads, and one which could have been a reply to an existing tape wrap dart thread (or either of them could've been posted to the photos thread instead).

The volume of dart threads has increased since the new DB forum launch. That was not my intent. My intent was to remove the ambiguity when choosing a forum to post new threads, and to make the existing info easier to find. Since we're only about a week in, I don't think it's unreasonable to lay out some ground rules as we go along. My first new rule is that people habitually posting designs that haven't been war tested will get one warning before I start closing their threads. This is a bit different from homemades because people usually don't get past one crappy homemade writeup before they figure out what they're doing wrong or give up. I guess if it makes you feel any better I could start ragging on buffdaddy if he starts posting homemade airguns again, but that's about as close as we're going to get. If you want, you can look at it as a derivative of the 'no more nitefinder writeups please' policy.

[KaneTheMediocre]

The RTV domes stopped working in hoppers specifically modified to fire them after a few rounds, and the VANS ripped themselves apart after no more than two rounds of play, which probably equates to being fired two, maybe three times in a row per dart. Your darts suck balls. Slugs are better in every way. My concerns have not been addressed.

The RTV domes continued to fire, albeit not with consistent power, through my hopper for the entire day at APOC 2011. Since then, I have made, and war-tested, a conduit hopper that works flawlessly. So, sorry, but you are factually incorrect.

About 200 VANS have been fired about 1000 times at my house, with 0 of them coming apart, including quite a few that were run over by cars in the parking lot. I am aware that you found a few foam blanks with holes in them at Cataclysm, which may have come from the ~20 darts that were used that war by my friend who has never nerfed before. So your findings are certainly cause for concern regarding the durability of VANS in a war setting, but to state unequivocally that the VANS ripped themselves apart after no more than two rounds of play is quite a stretch.

All of my darts do work consistently with everyone's blasters, provided they are not hoppered. I agree that "provided they are not wye-hoppered" is a HUGE catch for a lot of people, myself included. Still, you must remember that there are still people who like homemade darts and who do not use hoppers, or, are willing to build hoppers that don't require special darts. If it is your intent for this to be a conventional-PVC-wye-hopperable-darts and barrels forum, you should label it as such.

It would be nice if there were a forum where people could discuss and develop their methods of dartmaking, but I can also understand wanting a place where only well established dart designs are posted. I thought this place was intended to be the former, but I see I was incorrect. So, why don't you just delete every post except for Ryan's slug dart writeup?

[Langley]

Now you're just willfully ignoring me and being contrarian. Even if what I've seen myself and heard from others is inaccurate, your darts are--by your own admission--flawed in ways which would prevent most people from investing the time and materials needed. My previous post still stands. If you want to post about your darts, there are several existing threads to choose from. If you continue to post new threads when I judge them to be unnecessary, they will be closed.