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Reverse Plungers

Maybe not such a bad thing after all

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#51 pjotrkuh

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:48 PM

Yeah,offcourse you'd have te be dressed up as a wizard to use that kind of missle......
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#52 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:54 PM

Wait, would everyone have to be dressed up like a wizard? What if only a few people of eather team can be a wizard and can use "magic" and every one else has to use melee weapons. People almost never bring melee weapons and that would solve the problem of not having much of any melee in nerf wars.
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#53 pjotrkuh

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:05 PM

No no, offcourse there's only 1 wizard per team, a few archers (with arrow shooting blasters offcourse), some cowboys (with pistols), some soldiers (with ls's or whatever primary's) and cavemen (with melee weapons)
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#54 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:15 PM

Whoa whoa, you can't have wizards and archers on the same team as cowboys and soldiers.....it'd have to be wizard and archers VS cowboys and soldiers
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#55 bourbon

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:38 PM

Oh no, a wave of sarcasm.



But seriously. How is this any more confusing than east coast rules? I'm pretty sure anyone can tell the difference between being hit by a mega fired from a BBBB, and a micro fired from a recon.

I googled "East Coast Nerf War Rules" and as far as I can tell, in east coast rules, you have 10 hit points, and each hit takes off a point. I have no idea how this is any less confusing than having to remember a mere two hits.


Nearly every single Nerf gun available for purchase on shelves today gets maybe 60 feet of range maximum, but boast excellent ROF. You have the Recon, Raider, Deploy, RF20 at TRU, Hornet, Firefly, Belt Blaster, Tetrastrike, Furyfire, DTB... need I go on?

Most Nerf guns used in war situations currently are high powered, single shot guns. A lot of +bows, 3Ks, BBBBs, stuff like that. You say nerf isn't about sharpshooting, but that's pretty much the playing style the weapons reflect. Even in my little local wars, everyone is grabbing the 100' shooters and ignoring everything else. This obviously means the rules are skewed towards this kind of weapon.

In Nerf, everyone takes only one hit, so the ideal weapon should be able to hit your opponent before he can hit you. How do you hit someone before they hit you? Outranging them. By increasing the number of hits required from one to two, the ideal weapon changes. Now the ideal weapon has to be able to shoot two or more micros before the opponent can shoot two micros. The long ranged, low ROF guns would no longer dominate, and we'd finally start seeing some weapon diversity.


I threw in the mega dart thing because there are many guns that simply don't work with the whole "multiple shot" strategy. Imagine you're playing East Coast rules. You're not going to use a BBBB, you'll probably have a Powerclip or something that shoots 10 or more times. East Coast rules would completely turn the tables in the opposite direction: you need to spray off 10 shots as fast as possible. Guns like the AT2K, +bow, and the PAS fall to the mighty RF20 and it's brethren in this style of play. My goal, however, isn't to outright kill ranged combat, but to make it feel more balanced compared to other forms of play.

The switch to Mega stefans would be a choice. You could stick with micros in your RSCB +bow, and hope you can hit someone twice before they can hit you. Or, you can change art types and still be able to get OHKOs. Mega darts, as previously mentioned, lower the range, ROF, and shot velocity on more powerful guns while allowing the performance of weaker guns to stay the same, unlike a dart weight ban. They are a rarer ammo type as well, so shots must be conserved. They are also a distinctly larger, heavier projectile, so it is easy to tell the difference between a hit from a micro dart. You can still use your long range blasters, but with the alternate ammunition, the advantage is slim. Mega darts allow single shot ranged combat to co-exist with hectic, rapid fire blasting, but not overpower it.


Even if you do not agree with my ruleset, you must admit that the current Nerf rules are what has skewed everything towards long range combat. If we want to encourage a wide variety of weapons, we have to change the rules to reflect that. Many important users have complained that the game has stagnated into an arms race, which is true. But it's not the fault of the players. People naturally find out what is "broken" or "overpowered" and use it to their advantage. Telling them to stop because "it's not fun" or "you're a douchebag" isn't the way to do it. See Talio's excellent rant here. You have to change the rules so other weapon types can have a chance.

Edited by bourbon, 28 January 2010 - 01:46 PM.

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#56 Split

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:45 PM

If you're really looking for a reasonable response, I'll indulge you for a moment. This comes down to ease and practicality of implementing. Under that system, not only does a war host have to make sure everyone understands that, he has to rule what counts as a "sharpshooting powerhouse" as you say and what doesn't. Right off the bat, pistols are going to be a point of contention. Several of mine peak at over 100' flat, and I know of others' that average those triple digits. Does that mean that NF's get a blanket cover? Who cares? Who wants to make that distinction.

More importantly, as a more prominent effect, since it effects everyone, you would no longer be able to pick up opponent's (or even team mates') darts and fire them. As demonstrated when I used larger foam at a few wars, it gets aggravating. If everyone did that, eventually virtually everyone will pick one or the other to use, negating the original intention.
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Teehee.

#57 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:56 PM

Don't forget, every one will have to mod their blasters to fire the new ammo, where most stock blasters shoot micros aready and most modded guns have been modded to fire micros, besides the fact that if you're going for realness for your hit points, you can die from 1 22cal. shot, fact is, 22cal. bullets are responceable for more deaths then any other single cal.
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#58 VACC

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:04 PM

Wow, I think you just hurt my argument by agreement.

Regardless, the idea of taking 2 hits before having to count in, as opposed to one, has some merit. The single hit than pause gameplay is absolutely what gave way to almost entirely long range combat, and trying an alternative is a good idea. So do it. Host a war and try it out.

On the other hand, mandating 2 different ammo types and assigning different hit points to each is excessive and doesn't achieve a whole lot. Right off the bat, properly weighted megas out of a +bow or BBBB are STILL going to greatly exceed the range of the rof weaopons you've described. Allowing them to count as 2 hits essentially removes the adjustment you've made by requireing two hits before counting in. I'm not sure that accomplishes anything aside from making it harder for those micro dart firing rof weapons to put someone down.

If you think it's a good idea, try it. Arguing about it here with people who simply don't agree with you is pointless. Prove us wrong or don't. That's it.
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#59 bourbon

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:06 PM

If you're really looking for a reasonable response, I'll indulge you for a moment. This comes down to ease and practicality of implementing. Under that system, not only does a war host have to make sure everyone understands that, he has to rule what counts as a "sharpshooting powerhouse" as you say and what doesn't. Right off the bat, pistols are going to be a point of contention. Several of mine peak at over 100' flat, and I know of others' that average those triple digits. Does that mean that NF's get a blanket cover? Who cares? Who wants to make that distinction.

More importantly, as a more prominent effect, since it effects everyone, you would no longer be able to pick up opponent's (or even team mates') darts and fire them. As demonstrated when I used larger foam at a few wars, it gets aggravating. If everyone did that, eventually virtually everyone will pick one or the other to use, negating the original intention.


First of all, the switch to megas would be a choice. One would have to decide if the ROF on their gun is bad enough that you need a one shot kill. Say you've got an AT2K. You can keep your 110' ranges and turret, and use micros for a 2HKO. Or, you could slap a PVC coupler on there, and single it, so you can shoot megas and get OHKOs. Another example is a BBBB. Obviously on the 4B you'd go for megas, because the reload time is terrible, or you could rig it like a shotgun and blast ten darts at once.

There would be no arbitrary rule saying which gun could use megas and which could use micros. It'd be all up to the user. You could even fire megas out of a Nitefinder if you're so inclined. It only shoots maybe 30-40 feet but if you like only having to shoot once, it can be done. You could try a different sidearm, like a Maverick or Tetrastrike instead and rely on your superior ROF, and use micros. If you think your RSCB +bow shoots fast enough to hit someone twice before they hit you, then stick with micros. If not, use megas.


Obviously the first few wars, mega stefans would be rather rare, but once a few people started shooting megas around, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. Besides, the rarity of the ammo forces you to conserve shots even more than usual.

Making other ammo types stronger than micro darts would encourage players to explore different strategies. Not only would different playing styles evolve (I can see the Ballzooka and Reactor kicking some serious ass at any range) but modifications would be far more diverse. We might see something other than "chamber for micros, single it, 150' range" get posted someday.


@ VACC: I already am trying to implement this with my Nerf group. we discussed the rules about this the other night. It started a while ago when I converted my SM5K (and later, the SS2s) to megas in an attempt to stop my friends from trying to sn1pe in our games. This didn't do anything to stop the vastly overpowered AT2K though, which after the ammo switch, shot further and had better reload times than any other air gun. This is when the idea of multiple shots for micros came about.

Edited by bourbon, 28 January 2010 - 02:14 PM.

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#60 VelveetaAvenger

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:21 PM

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You guys should be more careful what you wish for, I'm totally ready for the new Wizard rules!!!


I'd just like to make it clear one last time that I just thought that it was interesting that people had been complaining about long range standoffs and that Nerf is giving us blasters that encourage the opposite. I don't mean to be telling people to they have to give up their favorite guns or change rules or anything like that. However, if you are starting to feel that your game has been getting stagnant, Nerf has given you the perfect opportunity to change it up.

I use megas in some blasters only because they are more accurate at range and somewhat easier to find after a round. The fun in nerf is that it's so simple you don't really have to think about it while playing, there's no need to assign different point values to different darts. If it gets too complex people will just get confused and it won't be as fun. Don't let the community stop you from trying it out though, as with all ideas posted here, try it yourself and let people know how it goes.

Edited by VelveetaAvenger, 28 January 2010 - 02:23 PM.

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#61 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 02:39 PM

I'll get my nerf swords ready....now where to find enough mantas to make a full sized shield out of. lol


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My friends and I have been playing 1 hit 1 kill for longer then we knew other people ran around with nerf blasters, it was just natural, grab a gun and eather do a team game or a last man standing.

Edited by Lion, 28 January 2010 - 02:42 PM.

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#62 durka durka

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:32 PM

Nerfing should never be this complex. If you turn nerfing into something that requires to "count hits" only LARPers will want to play (shudders).In a few years nefers will be rolling dice to see if their "armor" blocked a dart.

Even if people wanted to put up with this idea, it won't make a big difference anyway. You're trying to help high ROF guns by encouraging higher powered guns to switch to megas for "one shot one kill" but you're also requiring more hits from the high rof guns. You could potentially decrease the number of high rof users.

While reverse plungers are nice, the only real advantage they have is that they're smaller. Guns with higher air output have the potential to out preform air guns in almost every way. Reverse plungers simply do not give you as much to work with.
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#63 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:53 PM

I'm oddly compelled by the 2HKO rule...
Maybe we'll try it out at the next war I host.
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#64 bourbon

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 05:21 PM

Nerfing should never be this complex. If you turn nerfing into something that requires to "count hits" only LARPers will want to play (shudders).In a few years nefers will be rolling dice to see if their "armor" blocked a dart.

Even if people wanted to put up with this idea, it won't make a big difference anyway. You're trying to help high ROF guns by encouraging higher powered guns to switch to megas for "one shot one kill" but you're also requiring more hits from the high rof guns. You could potentially decrease the number of high rof users.


Come on, these have got to be the worst strawman arguments I have ever seen. Since when did I say anything about armor, witches or LARP. I'm not asking you to start doing charisma checks mid battle, you just have to know how to count to two. One (1), Two (2). See, it's that easy!

Taking hits has always been a problem in these kind of games anyways, even with single-hit outs. Sometimes you have to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. It also depends on the gun. if a guy shoots a Lightning Blitz at you, don't you think it's safe to assume 2 / 5 darts hit you and go out? If someone empties a Raider on you, don't you think it's fair to go out then, too? No matter what rules you're playing by, there will always be discrepancies. it's not something unique to my idea.


The reason for two dart types is obvious. First, you need a way to weaken the overpowered weapons WITHOUT weakening the regular weapons. By using Megas in high powered, low ROF guns, you cut their range without lowering the range of regular micro dart blasters. This is the reason I decided against regulating dart weight, that lowers the range of all guns, and we want the gap between ranged guns and rapid-fire guns to shrink.

Because I don't want to ban any equipment, I had to make a detriment of some sort to using the micro, a disadvantage that would ONLY harm powerful guns, but wouldn't affect the rapid firing guns. This was to increase the number of micros required to kill. I have several Doubleshots and I wanted that gun to still be able to kill without having to reload. I also wanted the AT2K to remain a viable weapon, so I decided that a 2HKO would be perfect.

A guy using a Raider or RF20 doesn't care if he has to spray a few more shots out there, but the big guns that take 5 seconds to reload definitely do. I'm basically giving "sn1pers" the illusion of choice. They can be loners and stand 150' away and take pot shots at me, but they'll never get two lucky shots from that distance. Or, they can take a risk and try megas, which not only bring them much closer to the game, but megas are more accurate too. Now does it make sense?


EDIT: This is TL;DR. I can sum this up way quicker this way.

Basically, you can take a hit from one Micro stefan without dying. Therefore, an effective or "good" weapon will either shoot multiple Micros at a time, or shoot alternate ammo types.

Edited by bourbon, 28 January 2010 - 07:32 PM.

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#65 rork

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 05:25 PM

Bourbon, you are the absolute king of TL;DR. Seriously, my eyes just glaze over when I try to read anything you post. I think my brain is trying to protect itself.

All that aside, I have honestly never ran a round with oldschool east coast rules. I think it would definitely be worth a try, if only to mix things up.
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#66 Split

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:27 PM

I have to agree with rork here. I glazed over the last part of your first post I replied to. So I'll adjust to that here -

Under those sets, where you either have a blaster that shoots micros requires two hits per "kill", and one that shoots megas needs only one, the logical choice is just to rebarrel/coupler all of your high rate of fire/high range blasters to megas.

I expect some dispute on just how simple that is, so I'll elaborate. Changing rscbs/briscs - simple. 5/8" ID barrel (pvc with no nesting, or otherwise), and a thinwall pvc (or otherwise, many options readily available on mcmaster) clip. Same goes for hopper clips. Turrets - 1500s were made for megas. RFDG's have been made to fit pvc, so they can certainly be made to work, and similar things apply to any other turreted blaster I can think of. The notable loss may be 3k's, but maybe even there will be a work around for that.

So in essence, nothing changes. Maybe the range game comes in a bit closer, but not all that much. It actually may even seem that I would be less likely to use those automatics or clipped blasters, since they're basically half as effective.

I support trying it out, but primarily in a group that doesn't mod as competitively as many of us, like it sounds like yours is. It doesn't seem viable to the rest of us though.
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Teehee.

#67 Zack the Mack

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 06:27 PM

I compiled the rules discussed in this thread, along with a few I've picked up at other wars, into a new elimination rules thread. You can check it out here and contribute your own alternate rules.

Now, let's all get back to talking about how reverse plungers are awesome.
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#68 durka durka

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:54 PM

Come on, these have got to be the worst strawman arguments I have ever seen. Since when did I say anything about armor, witches or LARP. I'm not asking you to start doing charisma checks mid battle, you just have to know how to count to two. One (1), Two (2). See, it's that easy!



When you develop a sense of humor (or at least the ablility to detect humor), will you let the rest of us know?

The more complicated you make a game, the more people argue and cheat, even if you are only requiring to count to two. If ain't broke, then don't fix it.

This could always be tried, but you're just going to get everyone to use highpowered guns with megas. Or, people will start doubling up on the amount of high powered blasters integrated into one gun. As split said, you will end up halfing the effectiveness of high rof guns. The end result would be that the mega gets more popular.
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