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Reverse Plungers

Maybe not such a bad thing after all

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#26 alberty

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 12:18 PM

Rather than just the range boost, I like to have the blasters modified for the faster speed that at least removing the AR gives you. My BBB is a slow reload, but the dart travels out really quickly, harder to dodge than a Recon's shot with its quick rate of fire. I don't think a ranged shot is useless indoors, but rather will require a much different strategy. Against a Raider as an example, I could have an extremely difficult time approaching, but if holding back, I could wait for a good pot shot and take it out. On the other hand, the Raider has a great rate of a fire but weaker range, so it will be used to close distance instead. If it had range, then it would be unsurpassable!

short version: I don't think ranged blasters are useless indoors, as they can be good when taking careful shots. I'm not a Nerf War veteran, but my ranged shots were helping me stay away and take out a Vulcan user indoors in the last one I had.

edit: k9turrent beat me to it

Edited by alberty, 26 January 2010 - 12:18 PM.

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#27 VACC

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 02:16 PM

Maybe if we argue range vs. rof for another two pages someone will summarize the whole argument into one concise point! Oh wait...I can just do that now.

Different situations are better suited by different nerf guns. You should use and mod what best fits your situation and use it in a way which you find most enjoyable.

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#28 Zack the Mack

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 02:35 PM

Z80's got the right point. The problem with weak blasters is how slowly the dart leaves the barrel, and by extension, barrel taps. A player using a weak blaster, such as one with a reverse plunger, has terrible odds against a player with a strong blaster, even at very close range.

Pretend we have two Nerfers, Mario and Luigi. Mario has a Big Blast with a speedloader, and Luigi has a Raider with a full drum.

If Mario spots Luigi at, say 100 feet, he'll have many opportunities to take him down before Luigi closes the gap. Even with the (overestimated) difficulty of landing a long-range shot, Mario will probably be able to take Luigi down before he can close the gap.

If Luigi gets within, say 50 feet of Mario, Mario can run from Luigi, move out of range, or dodge his shots. As long as Mario can outrun Luigi, he has a tactical advantage.

Even assuming Luigi gets close and rushes, Mario has another advantage in that the opponent is moving at HIM. He can dodge Luigi's shots (which is easy, since they're moving half-speed), and take a barrel tap.

If Luigi manages to really get up in Mario's grill, say 10 feet, range and rate of fire don't matter at all. It becomes a race to barrel-tap.

So what do you do about it? A possible solution is to eliminate barrel taps. If Luigi were to rush Mario and Mario couldn't barrel tap, Mario would only have one extremely risky shot before he was forced to run.
When the defender can barrel-tap, he has all the advantages in close-range. He can dodge the darts, he can run out of range, and he can still retaliate without the risk of losing his only shot.

War organizers, the ball's in your court. It's up to you to discover and implement rules that strip the advantages from long-ranged players and let participants use a wider variety of weapons.

TL;DR: Range matters. Dart speed matters, too. All of the advantages of short range blasters are nullified when a long-range player can barrel-tap.

Edited by Zack the Mack, 26 January 2010 - 03:32 PM.

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#29 Ice Nine

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 03:16 PM

So what do you do about it? I say to eliminate barrel taps. If Luigi were to rush Mario and Mario couldn't barrel tap, Mario would only have one extremely risky shot before he was forced to run.


Hi, let me introduce you to my friend "no one does barrel taps anyways."

Just because A and B are within ten feet of each other doesn't mean that it becomes a race to barrel tap. I've been five feet from Snake in a Powerball round and he hit me with his Raider-drum nearly-stock Recon before I could tap him with my 1500. If he can shoot at me with something considerate from that close he has a big advantage over me because I'm not going to be a toolbox and hit him with a gun that shoots three times further than his at that distance. It would be kinder to people to enforce barrel tapping as often as possible because the people with low-range, high-ROF blasters can easily overcome a person going for a barrel tap with a +bow.

Edited by Ice Nine, 26 January 2010 - 03:19 PM.

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#30 k9turrent

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 03:57 PM

At HbH3, we played a little game called: HEADHUNTERS

So the guy in the first picture missed me from 15ft, I fired my 3k mega pistol hit him in the first pic. Then he chased me down for about 30sec and headshot/barrel tapped me
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QUOTE View Post

That's about it. And thanks Angela who helped me with these pictures.. It looks huge in her hands.


HOLY CRAP!

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#31 VACC

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:04 PM

Zack, you're about half a rung down the never-touching-cleavage ladder from penning a nintendo themed nerf fanfic. Turn back now!

If you really want to encourage rof over range, though, the simplest solution would be to try some rounds with the long since abandoned "east coast rules". "East Coast rules" has always been a lame way of saying that there is no countdown after a hit. If someone pelts you with 4 shots from a mantaray (teehee) you take 4 hits. If someone unloads a magstrike on you, count the darts and take the hits.

In this way someone with a ranged blaster that lacks rof might be successful in getting the first hit, but will struggle to keep up with someone packing a clip and a little closing speed. Be warned, however, that this rule set was abandoned by most because rounds are over incredibly quickly, and fairly counting hits from high rof nerf guns is difficult in the heat of the moment. Other things that become difficult in the heat of the moment; reloading anything, iambic pentameter, your mom saying no to me.

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#32 Zack the Mack

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:37 PM

Zack, you're about half a rung down the never-touching-cleavage ladder from penning a nintendo themed nerf fanfic. Turn back now!

If you really want to encourage rof over range, though, the simplest solution would be to try some rounds with the long since abandoned "east coast rules". "East Coast rules" has always been a lame way of saying that there is no countdown after a hit. If someone pelts you with 4 shots from a mantaray (teehee) you take 4 hits. If someone unloads a magstrike on you, count the darts and take the hits.

In this way someone with a ranged blaster that lacks rof might be successful in getting the first hit, but will struggle to keep up with someone packing a clip and a little closing speed. Be warned, however, that this rule set was abandoned by most because rounds are over incredibly quickly, and fairly counting hits from high rof nerf guns is difficult in the heat of the moment. Other things that become difficult in the heat of the moment; reloading anything, iambic pentameter, your mom saying no to me.

VACC


Ha ha, I figured Nerfers would be geeky enough to instantly recognize the names. I was originally going to use Edward and Jacob, but the last thing we need on this forum are people who Google that combination. Not to mention my post looked about 9001% gayer.

Anyways, I think the general consensus lately is that the standard 3-15 game rules don't match up to what players find enjoyable, and aren't compatible with the currently-available Nerf products. I'd say that the subject definitely deserves some attention, but this particular topic isn't the place to do it.
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#33 LiterSize

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:51 PM

One thing that's been forgotten in the whole mention here.... sidearms? If you're carrying a higher-range/higher-powered blaster, is it really considered too much weight to consider carrying a sspb, eliminator, wristblitzer, etc.? Maybe it impinges on people's play styles to never carry a sidearm, but forcing half the field into standoffs with long range blasters is the other side of the coin.
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#34 k9turrent

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 06:21 PM

One thing that's been forgotten in the whole mention here.... sidearms? If you're carrying a higher-range/higher-powered blaster, is it really considered too much weight to consider carrying a sspb, eliminator, wristblitzer, etc.? Maybe it impinges on people's play styles to never carry a sidearm, but forcing half the field into standoffs with long range blasters is the other side of the coin.



I usually carry 4 eliminators... and I have charged and barrel tapped an entire team with them

Edited by k9turrent, 26 January 2010 - 06:23 PM.

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QUOTE View Post

That's about it. And thanks Angela who helped me with these pictures.. It looks huge in her hands.


HOLY CRAP!

FU ALL

#35 Draconis

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 06:44 PM

One thing that's been forgotten in the whole mention here.... sidearms? If you're carrying a higher-range/higher-powered blaster, is it really considered too much weight to consider carrying a sspb, eliminator, wristblitzer, etc.? Maybe it impinges on people's play styles to never carry a sidearm, but forcing half the field into standoffs with long range blasters is the other side of the coin.



I usually carry 4 eliminators... and I have charged and barrel tapped an entire team with them



So what you are saying is, Canadians have no defensive skills? Bet you are happy to be America's hat now, eh?

Edited by Draconis, 26 January 2010 - 06:49 PM.

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#36 k9turrent

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:17 PM

I usually carry 4 eliminators... and I have charged and barrel tapped an entire team with them



So what you are saying is, Canadians have no defensive skills? Bet you are happy to be America's hat now, eh?


Bah I ambushed them all from the bushes, and I has L33T SK1LLZ at dodging
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QUOTE View Post

That's about it. And thanks Angela who helped me with these pictures.. It looks huge in her hands.


HOLY CRAP!

FU ALL

#37 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 07:51 PM

I... I like long range blasters...
And I'm sure I'm not alone.
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#38 bourbon

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 08:35 PM

This is a little out there, but bringing back megas would solve several common complaints people have with Nerf.

Mega stefans are far more accurate than micros, but don't shoot as far. They're larger (obviously) so fewer can be carried. The larger size also means they are incompatible with most turrets.

Since megas are more accurate, fewer "pot shots" need to be taken before a hit. The user also has less shots before a reload is required (due to the inability to use turrets) which also leads to fewer, but more careful shots. Mega stefans also reduce the range of a gun by about 1/3, capping even the most powerful blasters, such as the SM5K, in the neighborhood of 90-100 feet. The accurate range falls somewhere around 70 feet. This is only slightly higher than the maximum range of the Raider and it's various spin-offs.

Nothing is more annoying than getting hit by someone you couldn't engage. There are literally blasters out there that shoot three times the distance that the current inverted plunger offerings do. By using mega stefans in high powered blasters, you not only encourage closer quarters gameplay, but also promote shooting skill over pot shots. You can't use RSCBs, hopper clips, drum magazines or turrets, so you'd better hit your target. Your reaction time had better be top notch as well. When you're only able to outshoot close ranged opponents by 20-30 feet, you have way less time to line up your shot against a rushing opponent. Megas have a slightly slower velocity than micros do, which means you have to lead your shots more at close range. Basically, everything about them discourages the "standoff" mentality. Of course you aren't going to rush a guy with a hopper clipped +bow. A guy with a singled +bow and easier to dodge shots is a completely different story.


Of course, most people will not WILLINGLY cut their ranges by 30%, so there needs to be incentive to use them. This is where VACC's post comes in. If people take multiple hits to kill, the balance will be tipped towards ROF > Range. Mega stefans (and balls, missiles and arrows) would be the only darts that can kill in one hit. Micros and nanos would take 2, maybe 3 hits, depending on how much it affects balance. (Most of my loaners are AT2Ks so I have to ensure they are still "good" guns)

Now the player has a choice. With a low ROF, high powered blaster, he can bet it all on one mega stefan and hope he hits the first time. Or, he can grab a Raider and spam enough micros to kill his opponent. A third option, of course, is rigging the high powered gun to shotgun blast a spread of micros. A fourth would be grabbing a ball gun, which would now actually be a viable option with their ridiculous ROF and insta-kill projectiles.


Obviously enforcing a "two hits for micros, one for anything larger" rule would be difficult, so for the time being I'll leave my idea on the back burner and probably play single shot kills. Some day I'll figure out a way to implement it. I just figured I'd throw this out there, because honestly, every time I Nerf with my friends, they just go for whichever one "shoots the hardest". I figured a simple damage system would encourage the use of guns like the Firefly and RF20 over the single shot cannons.
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#39 Zack the Mack

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 09:04 PM

This is a little out there, but bringing back megas would solve several common complaints people have with Nerf.


None of the reverse-plunger blasters take Megas, so this is out of place.

At any rate, almost no turreted or clipped blasters accept Megas, which defeats the purpose.

Oh, I realize what you're saying - Everyone who's NOT using a high-ROF blaster can only use Megas, which both limits range and makes close-range shots less painful. That's actually a really interesting idea.

Edited by Zack the Mack, 27 January 2010 - 05:53 PM.

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#40 Split

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 12:50 PM

I like where this thread is going now, much more than when it was started. It's coming down to the problem that many of us have already realized. A quick summation of my view on it:

Megas will not cut range by 30% (example number, I don't think that's what bourbon was implying). In fact, most changes to darts don't affect range/accuracy by a set percent. Changes are more exaggerated on high powered blasters than low powered ones (this should match up with your common sense).

The real effects of switching to megas are going to be from the aerodynamics. On high powered blasters that approach the aerodynamic maximum range, you're going to get a 10-15' drop*, so about 10% at most, decreasing exponentially as the blasters get weaker.

Switching to slug darts though, which I highly advocate, has a about that same aerodynamic impact (as most people already know), but the decrease in mass will drop it much much further on top of that. It's a practical switch too - it's very easy to tell if they're slugs or not, or even if the weights are off.

Having certain round types that enforce/promote use of lower ranged blasters (e.g. east coast rules or reverse plunger only) may be good for a few rounds, but in the overall goal of making more blasters viable, this is working in the wrong direction, whereas darts are an obvious constant factor between blasters, and are easily manipulated. Similar factors would be number of blasters and number of barrels, which are potential routes to be explored I suppose.

Oh, and one last thing. The only reasons that accuracy should be improving from micros to megas would be if the darts are heavier, or the profile (e.g. dart tip or straightness of cuts) being more symmetrical. Both of these aren't related to the diameter of the foam, but the dart-smithing itself (including types of weights used, etc).

*flat ranges, of course
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Teehee.

#41 VACC

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:03 PM

The least utilized method for influencing game play is to pick a good venue and set specific boundaries. For instance, the best aspect of Deal Test Site is that there are a variety of different fields that each play significatnly differently. It makes it easy for us to ensure that two consecutive rounds will not play the same way. I highly recomend finding a park that has a variety of different terrain so that you can mix things up when one round doesn't go quite as you'd anticipated or would have liked.

However, such a venue is not available to everyone. In the absense of varried terrain, there are certain things you can look for in a "single field" park that will help keep things fast paced. Avoiding large open fields will go a long way towards eliminateing pot shots and line firing. Sporadic cover that only provides protection from a certain angle (a tree is the best example) lets people move closer to oponents carrying long range weapons, while giving the other team the ability to move and attack the covered nerfer from another angle. In contrast, heavily wooded areas or thick brush encourages people to camp out and take pot shots with high powered blasters through the leafy obstacles.

Learning your venue and using it accordingly is the easiest way, by far, to alter the flow of a nerf war.

VACC
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#42 Foamfoot

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 02:05 PM

How about we stop over-analyzing ourselves? We're just making fools of ourselves. Really, I haven't seen any big, long post that had a decent point to it in a while. Let's stop trying to decide which is better, or whatever. Host a war with east coast rules, and we can see how things turn out.

There have been SO many things that sound great on paper, but just suck in person. Let's test it out.
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#43 rork

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 04:57 PM

I'm with Beaver here. Playing with relatively long-range guns is fun, especially if you're using slug darts. If long-range guns result in standoffs, that's the fault of the nerfers, not the guns. Longer ranges just allow for more variety in playstyles and tactics. Some of you may actually want to nerf in scenarios in which ambushing someone out with a wild spray of darts is consistently the best technique; I prefer the kinds of shot-by-shot, 40-70 foot duels that result from carrying legitimate weaponry.
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#44 Draconis

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 07:10 PM

I prefer the kinds of shot-by-shot, 40-70 foot duels that result from carrying legitimate weaponry.


Yep, and in this instance, "legitimate" is almost certainly synonymous with "shoots balls".

Well, it SHOULD be.
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#45 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 27 January 2010 - 08:14 PM

God, I hate adding to such a wordy thread...

If you want to stop the pot shot lameness, then use a close-range, high ROF blaster. Ultimately, it's your responsibility to keep the game fun. Velveeta practices what he preaches: he uses a doubleshot, a turreted SM750, and a shotgun Titan at our wars. None of them get super-duper ranges, but they are effective, and they're damn fun to use.
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#46 bourbon

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 01:10 AM

My current nerf loadout, which I will use as reference is an assortment of nitefinders, fireflies, AT2Ks, LBs, SS2s, an EAB, a SM5K, some doubleshots, and a few RF20s. Unfortunately, whenever we play, the only guns that see any real use are the AT2Ks. They outrange everything (since I use megas in the SS2s and SM5K) and the reload is pretty damn quick too. I have some pretty interesting guns but they can't compete with the versatile AT2K.

That is when I started wondering about how the gap between rapid fire and long ranged guns. The problem is that you can get hit way too easily when you're charging someone, and even if you do get close, you have to remember that they can run away too, dodging your slow moving projectiles, and by either reloading, or switching to his pistol, he can take you out.

Pretty much the only flaw the AT2K has is the reload time. If people took more shots to kill, the focus would shift from long range, single shot guns, to medium ranged rapid firing guns. The AT2K wouldn't be so beastly compared to the shorter ranged blasters because you can risk taking a hit when you rush someone. Say you've got an RF20, you're charging the guy with the AT2K. He shoots you at 60', then while he tries to reload, you can close the gap to say 30', and blast him.

I figured two hits to kill would be fair. This way, you could shoot someone with a micro dart firing primary, then switch to the pistol to finish them. Also, guns like the Doubleshot would become an interesting sidearm option, because you can nail someone with both barrels for a kill, at a slight cost in range. Same with the Maverick and Lightning Blitz. Being able to throw out multiple darts would be crucial to winning micro dart warfare.

To semi-preserve the distance combat aspect of Nerf, Mega darts (and other large ammo) could be used in more powerful guns to get one hit kills. You might use an arrow shooting BBB for once. Or a ballgun. Or maybe fire megas out of your crossbow. Mega stefans cause a significant range and velocity reduction, but increase accuracy significantly. Basically, the powerful guns would outshoot the rapid fire guns, but only by a small amount. However, due to the increase in accuracy and a closer target, picking someone off with a mega dart shooter would be easy. A skilled nerfer might be able to dodge the shot and finish a crossbow user before he can reload. He's only 20-30 feet outside your range after all.

The AT2K would evolve to have a different role though. Being the farthest shooting gun, it could be used to harass mega shooters from outside their range. It would no longer dominate close quarters combat as well, but long range would remain useful. Same with the Man Cannon and Doomsayer and the like. You could even load multiple darts into each of the barrels and use it as a shotgun and tear up the opposite end of the range spectrum. Just imagine a RFSG putting out five darts at a time.


This is already TL;DR, but that is how I see it affecting my situation.


Just think about it. If people take multiple hits to kill, you want to have a gun that can shoot multiple darts before reload. All these reverse plunger guns could truly shine in such an environment, having mediocre range, but great ROF.

PS: If we just switched to slug darts, all guns would suffer range and velocity cuts. By forcing single shot powerhouses to use megas, then the micro guns have the same good range and velocity they've always had, and the power weapons would be balanced. Also, it's much easier to tell the difference between getting hit by a mega stefan, and getting hit by a micro. Micros sting. Megas pack a more serious punch. There would be less discrepancy about wether you are out or not.

Edited by bourbon, 28 January 2010 - 01:26 AM.

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#47 VACC

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:15 AM

Yes, let's make different and arbitrary rules for what type of amunition every possible nerf gun and modified iteration of that gun can use! Let's not stop there, let's assign different hit values to each type of ammunition!

Micro darts - .75 Hits
Megas - 1 hit
Arrows - 1.5 hits
Balls - 1.78695 hits

This would solve everything.
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#48 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 09:45 AM

VACC I think you're on to something, but wouldn't you also need to give arms and legs their own 'hits' too, so if you get shot in the leg you have to drop to one knee, or in the arm you can no longer use that arm....ha!
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#49 Split

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:21 PM

Wait, wait, wait! How about if you need a set amount of mana to fire, and you have to shout an incantation every time!
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#50 Lion

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 12:31 PM

Can we yell magic missle when we fire, I want to attack the darkness.
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