51 replies to this topic

[Lynx]

Local radio friend who also has a degree in astrophysics and used to work for NASA has a friend who was in a bar with L. Ron Hubbard and his friend says "Scientology started as a bar bet to see if people would follow a religion based off of science-fiction."

[Green Riptide]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 'fair game' policy was officially rescinded years ago, even if it is still defacto policy.

What most incriminates Scientology to me is the "Snow White" episode. If the FBI raided Scientology premises and found that there had been a massive espionage effort, why was the entire church not shut down? Why does the average Joe not know that anything even happened? When the leaders of the organization (the Hubbards were incriminated as co-conspirators) are directly involved with the altering, theft of, and burglary of federal records, I'd see that as grounds to erase every trace of the "church"'s existence. At that point it doesn't matter if they are gathered based on a shared belief system- they're a crime syndicate.


Lynx- that's a few too many friends' friend's to take seriously.

Edited by Green Riptide, 14 February 2008 - 09:07 PM.

[CaptainSlug]

The "rescind" order itself is contradictory because it states that "Fair Game is canceled" but then says "This P/L does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of [Suppressive Persons]."
L Ron. Hubbard had no shortage of self-contradictions. Public or private.

The "Church" has argued – unsuccessfully – as late as 1985 that retributive action against "enemies of Scientology" should be considered a Constitutionally-protected "core practice" of Scientology.

The actions of the "Church" have continued to reflect an enaction of the "Fair Game" policy. This is evident particularly in videos of how Scientology has "handled" protesters and critics for the past 30 years.
http://www.xenutv.co...ckets/index.htm
http://www.youtube.com/user/xenutv1
http://www.cs.cmu.ed...oper/index.html

Edited by CaptainSlug, 14 February 2008 - 09:35 PM.

[imaseoulman]

I am familiar with the fair game policy and based on what evidence I have, the Church of Scientology seems to continue such practices.

So, we have established that
1) The Church of Scientology is causing harm to others.
2) It is being made public.
3) Parts of the government are corrupt (influenced by the "clout" of the Church of Scientology).
4) It is our moral obligation to take action against the Church of Scientology.

So, now what do we do?
Try to get legislation passed? What kind of legislation?
Demand an investigation and trial? Who presses charges? How do they win in court against the CoS lawyers?

Any other suggestions? I'm all for taking action (yes I am a legal adult of voting age), but I need some direction. What do you think is the best course of action? Can the government be influenced to help?

[PointBlank]

At my highschool my bible teacher assigned us each to chose a cult and research it. Write a 4 page report on them and explain how they differ from Christianity. Its too bad I chose my topic a week ago, all this info would have been helpful.

So ask your teacher to change your topic. If you approach him/her in the following manner I'm sure the response would be affirmative:

"I recently became aware of the conflict between Scientology and Anonymous and I'm very interested in finding out more about this conflict and how we can learn from it to stop the spread of these kinds of cults."

Also, I would advise you to be very skeptical when completing this assignment. Just because something is not a part of mainstream Christianity does not mean it's a cult. Just out of curiousity, how does your teacher define cult? When researching anything about another faith you must remain skeptical about what the opposition says. Try to find out what members of the cult think and what the cult officially teaches (i.e. if white European male married to an African Muslim states that Muslims believe in killing all non-believers, realize that the statement may not be accurate and even if the wife does believe that way it does not necessarily represent all sects of Muslims, instead read the Koran). Former members of a cult are also not very good sources because they have strong animosity for the cult after becoming disillusioned. Good luck on the assignment.

I'll consider trying to change topics but I doubt I will be able to persuade him. I cant really answer your question on what his definition of a cult as I do not have my Bible notes with me. Anyways all the advice is greatly apreciated.

[precisionnerfer]

I am familiar with the fair game policy and based on what evidence I have, the Church of Scientology seems to continue such practices.

So, we have established that
1) The Church of Scientology is causing harm to others.
2) It is being made public.
3) Parts of the government are corrupt (influenced by the "clout" of the Church of Scientology).
4) It is our moral obligation to take action against the Church of Scientology.

So, now what do we do?
Try to get legislation passed? What kind of legislation?
Demand an investigation and trial? Who presses charges? How do they win in court against the CoS lawyers?

Any other suggestions? I'm all for taking action (yes I am a legal adult of voting age), but I need some direction. What do you think is the best course of action? Can the government be influenced to help?

I know that I said i was leaving, but while I'm here selling off my stuff I might as well contribute to moral discussions.

Here is my suggestion: TAKE ACTION if it is violent or illegal action we are no better then them. Here is the action I believe we should take. As this cult is a graphic, illegally, adult issue i believe that those 18 or over should avidly do the following:

A. Get the word out about this cult and what they do and have done. Mass email all your friends chain letters.

B. Contact your state legislature and senator and try to meet with them. It can happen. If it can't write them a letter describing the "Church" and ask them to make a bill that states a cult that encourages and carries out illegal actions may not exist.

C. Sign up with two or more opposing websites that share your beliefs and attend rallies and protests against the cult. I'm not going to waste the word church on them anymore.

Imasoulman, I respect and appreciate your looking at this on both sides.

Also, anyone who speaks out against the cult should not publicly state their name, as everyone is "fair game"
Think about why Anonymous is anonymous.

[CaptainSlug]

A. Mass email all your friends chain letters.

B. Contact your state legislature and senator and try to meet with them. It can happen. If it can't write them a letter describing the "Church" and ask them to make a bill that states a cult that encourages and carries out illegal actions may not exist.

C. Sign up with two or more opposing websites that share your beliefs and attend rallies and protests against the cult. I'm not going to waste the word church on them anymore.

A. Eew, no. You'll start losing friends doing that and make a nuisance of yourself.

B. Contacting ANY of your representatives from Local Government, State Government, Congressional Representatives, Senators, and so forth is highly advisable. Keep your message concise and clearly worded, their time is valuable. If you have the time to write your own it is good idea because form letters and petitions are impersonal and have less impact. The goal here is to inform and advise the government who does not completely understand the threat that they are up against.
The primary aim is to concentrate on getting the Tax Exemption revoked, so make sure to include that in your letter. If you are hoping to talk to your representative in person make sure to make an appointment before showing up so that you can be sure to get the time you need to get your message across and dress respectfully.

C. Attend a protest if there is one within reasonable distance and you can devote the time to it. There are many other things you can help with though such as contacting local and national media to petition their aid in covering the protests on March 15th.
Aside from just the protest there are many secondary operations and projects underway and in the works based on the needs of different locations. You'll have to check the various forums for more information on those. Most of the areas expecting higher attendance have setup their own forums.

[precisionnerfer]

Thanks for the clarification Slug, but If your friends believe what you do, and they are actually your friends, a big chain letter discussing the cult and its many flaws should only help their knowledge and awareness. Providing it is a decent email.

[CaptainSlug]

I would advise you to just talk to them in person if you can, or at the most impersonal contact them through. Just avoid sending out a bulk e-mail that will get you ignored and gear your message to each individual. We don't want you to end up on your friend's spam filter.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 14 February 2008 - 11:14 PM.

[Galaxy613]

My friend is leaning towards Scientology side of the debate, but he wants some information on the GOOD side of Scientology before making his decision... IS there a good side?

[CaptainSlug]

IS there a good side to Scientology?

It's really hard to find the good side of anything that's primarily based on lies, plagiarism, and a totalitarian authority structure. It's like asking if there's a sunny side of organized crime.

You should tell him to avoid Scientology in all forms like the plague, but if he wants to learn more about its beliefs he should look into FreeZone, which unlike The "Church" of Scientology won't blackmail, extort, or isolate him. They will teach him the basic stuff like the ARC triangle and "communication" theories concerning the "bridge".
It is however based on the same nonsensical pseudoscience written by a pathological liar that cheated his way through college and life.

Video here L Ron. Hubbard telling just one of his hundreds of conflicting stories on why he started writing Dianetics. Also note that he's admitting he took tests for other people and had other people take tests for him.

Dianetics is made from extremely warped versions of ACTUAL communication theories (Primer on Communication Theory). The real theories have been tested and retested hundreds of times over the past 100 years, instead of just made up by one guy who doesn't even hold a relevant degree in the subject.

Here is Aristotle's Persuasive Appeals.


And here is L. Ron Hubbard's "ARC Triangle" where he rips off both Aristotle (in SUPER confuso-grammar) and the basic Sender-Receiver model of communication at the same time. He also replaces the "message" that normally would be exchanged between sender and receiver with "agreement" because it's unthinkable that other people might have different opinions from you. Just this article alone demonstrates how difficult it can become for a Scientologist to carry a conversation with people outside of the organization once they've become a part of it.


Whatever Scientology is promising can be obtained for free from countless other places. From social services and other free counseling services, to self-help books, and every other legitimate religious ministry under the sun that provides counseling to anyone that walks into their doors.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 15 February 2008 - 12:26 AM.

[aetherguy881]

IS there a good side?

It's like asking if there's a sunny side of organized crime.

There is, you get rich (supposedly). However the penalties far outweigh the benefits. Simple explanation, just watch Gangland on the history channel.

[precisionnerfer]

Here are some videos I found on the subject that will most definitely enlighten.

I found them on Godtube, but I assume they could be found on Youtube as well. I have done much research in the past hours about Scientology, and in short, I thus far confirm every word Slug has posted on this thread. My results match up with his precisely.

This First one is basically just making fun of the silly concepts of Scientology, but believe it or not, that is what they believe. It has been confirmed everywhere I look. I'm sure you could ask a member and they might tell you the same.

On this one the English men speaking and who wrote the facts have an obvious Christian bias, but they speak the truth no doubt. They simply state a few obvious facts about both beliefs, and elaborate on the facts on the life of Hubbard[sp] and those around him.

Quite interesting.

[CaptainSlug]

This First one is basically just making fun of the silly concepts of Scientology, but believe it or not, that is what they believe. It has been confirmed everywhere I look. I'm sure you could ask a member and they might tell you the same.

Well, that's the Catch 22. The ones that are high enough to know aren't likely to talk to you or will flat out deny it.
Those that are too low in the structure haven't been told anything about it yet and will be just utterly confused by what you're telling them.

If you want to know all of the nonsensical garbage the highest members believe check out this.
http://forums.enturb...topic.php?t=337

On this one the English men speaking and who wrote the facts have an obvious Christian bias, but they speak the truth no doubt. They simply state a few obvious facts about both beliefs, and elaborate on the facts on the life of Hubbard[sp] and those around him.

Too much unsubstantiated rumor and "I think" in that video.
If you want some background on Hubbard check
Here: http://en.wikipedia..../L._Ron_Hubbard
Or Here: http://www.xenu.net/

Edited by CaptainSlug, 15 February 2008 - 02:11 AM.

[precisionnerfer]

You're right. I should have thought of that before! The ones higher up in the deal are the ones that actually know all the nonsense! The ones lower down aren't yet exposed.

Here's another one IDK if it's from 60 minutes or not, that may have been for fun or something, but they seem to have interviewed the right people at different times, and got incredible conflicting and weird stories.

Okay I'm done.

[Chanclas]

I almost cried, it's so beautiful how we can hate someone yet be loved at the same time. I'm going to the next one in my city, but I wish I knew about the one on Sunday.

Edited by Chanclas, 15 February 2008 - 01:25 AM.

[Thom]

One major reason that few people know the stranger aspects of Scientology is that in contrast to, say, Christianity, where your local church will give you a free Bible just for stopping by and your local library system probably stocks Aquinas and Anselm, Scientology's religious materials are guarded by trade secret, copyright, and waaaaay too many lawyers. Of course, some of the more IP-hostile corners of the internet make such information available. Not that I would advocate infringement of anyone's copyright. Just saying.

[CaptainSlug]

Or if you know where to look you can get the information directly from the horse's mouth.
http://video.google....iAkGN567zTRqM2w

[imaseoulman]

Wow, tractor beams eh? I can see how this could appeal to desperate people who want to feel special, or to egomaniacs who believe they are greater than they are, or people who live in their personal fable. Who doesn't want to believe they have supernatural powers?

But, besides all that, I don't really care what they believe. People believe some pretty strange stuff, I mean, a good portion of Christians believe in the existence of a man who was never a man but always was there but became a man but even then wasn't a man but an embodiment of something more than man and is really a third part of a being who are three separate beings yet one being. They even admit that it doesn't make sense and doesn't need to make sense. But people have the right to believe whatever they want to believe.

What concerns me are the actions of these people. Muslims can believe that we westerners are infidels all they want, I don't care. But the second they hijack planes and fly them into heavily populated areas, they need to be removed (note: not all Muslims, just those that adhere to and support the practice of irradicating non-Muslims).

As far as all the secret teachings go (the ones revealed only to the higher ups), I wouldn't worry about it. People teach and believe stranger things, we're just more used to hearing about it. If anyone is thinking about joining or supporting CoS, they should find out why you have to pay money to learn about their belief system to begin with. Remember in the Tom Cruise video when he said something to the effect that the definition of being a scientologist is having gained new knowledge and wanting to share that with everybody else? So why don't they share that knowledge with us? Why don't they post on their web site all their beliefs. If you want to know about Catholic doctrine you can go to newadvent.com (a huge encyclopedia of Catholic teachings). If you want to learn about Mormon doctrine go to lds.org (has the whole Book of Mormon on it) or mormon.org for a brief introduction to the faith. But if you want to study Scientology as they present you have to spend big bucks for books and seminars and trainings and so forth.

[MithMorchaint]

Many people fail to realize that Anonymous is a headless monster. It's not an organization because it has no authority structure. Anonymous is the collective whole of the internet itself and that means it encompasses the good, the bad, and the indifferent.
Leadership (in charismatic influence only) can steer Anonymous occasionally, and Anonymous has and does respond to honest criticism. Provided it's done with a spirit of humility. Those that retaliate will only provoke counter retaliation since many of the flailing arms of anonymous follow the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" mode of operation.

I wouldn't say it is the internet as a whole, really. "Anonymous", at least in this case, is the /b/ channel of 4chan.

Don't ever, ever, go to 4chan.

[Thom]

Not just 4chan. Anonymous started there, but it's spread throughout all of the chans and beyond.

But yes, never go to /b/ if you have a faint heart.

[Forsaken angel24]

The more I read about this Scientology garbage the more sick I become.
I mean, I am not a big fan of Organized religion to begin with.
However, I am feeling a little more pissed off than I was when I first heard about them.
When I first heard about Scientology I was like "What the fuck, someone recently made a new religion?"
Then after reading and going through a lot of what was posted in this thread, I can only see Scientology as an Evil found in fantasy books. I cannot believe this shit actually exits. I thought people were smarter than this.

I recently picked up a dvd a little while ago called "Psychiatry an industry of death". It was presented by the Citizens commission of human rights.
The dvd started out on all the flaws in psychiatry and how much money people are wasting on it. I have to say it was some pretty interesting stuff for about 35 minutes. After that it got rather dull and then it started hyping up the the citizens of human commission of human rights. To the point where it seemed like some kind of infomercial.
The Citizens commisions of Human rights was co-founded in 1969 by Scientology and Dr Thomas Szasz.

I watched this with a group of my friends and a lot of them claimed this movie was very one sided.
They spoke nothing of the people they hurt.

[imaseoulman]

So this morning I went to the scientology official web site (not for the first time, but looking for some more answers after reading about OT levels...interesting stuff, I highly recommend looking into it) and I saw a link for an introductory DVD about scientology. I thouhgt, hey maybe it will be free and I can get their side of it, and maybe it's just a few bucks (after all, they probably want to attract converts right?) Well, I clicked the link and I see this picture of a bunch of books and a title that says "The Basics Books and Lectures Package." This is the foundation, what you need just to get started...Oh yeah, and by the way, full price is just $4575. But right now it is on sale and you can get free shipping so it's only $3500. Tempting...

[CaptainSlug]

I recently picked up a dvd a little while ago called "Psychiatry an industry of death". It was presented by the Citizens commission of human rights.

For those that are not aware, the "Citizens Commission of Human Rights" is one of Scientology's many front groups for spreading materials without having their name directly attached to it. A similar group is "The Cult Awareness Network" which legitimately spoke out against many cults a long time ago, but was later bought out by Scientology and is also used for distributing media.

For a long list of their front groups see
http://www.lermanet....rontgroups.html

Edited by CaptainSlug, 15 February 2008 - 02:39 PM.

[Eboreg]

Oh yeah, and by the way, full price is just $4575. But right now it is on sale and you can get free shipping so it's only $3500. Tempting...

$4,575 and $3,500 or $45.75 and $35.00? Because if it's the former, I could be very suspicious of Scientology from that alone.