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P90 Helix Ramp Mag


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#26 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 12:28 AM

I wouldn't try doing a staggered magazine. The reason I didn't mention it before was that it isn't an option without shells, because the darts may get deformed by the force of the magazine spring, eventually causing them to strech and try to occupy the dead space in the magazine. This risk could be reduced by using a weaker spring, but I would make sure you know the maximum amount of darts the magazine can hold before this happens at a scale that would render the magazine useless.

Also, you guys don't have to change anything in boltsniper's name. The censor only seeks out the word snįper by itself.


I never intended to do a staggered magazine at any point in this project, it's too much work for too little gain. With a fairly small 10 inch clip(well small for being on the top of a gun) thats at least 20 darts right there, no need to double stack for any reason at all. That rotation ramp is still getting the best of me, the little bugger just won't work right. I have a feeling I'm getting closer but nothing fully functional yet so far. This might end up using shells if foam doesn't move through the ramp well enough. Good views of the rotation ramp of the magazine are incredibly hard to find, let alone exploded views of the clip, so that's making this 100 times as hard as it should be.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 08 August 2007 - 12:31 AM.

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#27 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 01:21 AM

I'll contribute as much as I can, images, tests, etc. After my shotgun is completed, I will try my hand at designing the helictical feed ramp.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 08 August 2007 - 01:22 AM.

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#28 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 01:35 AM

I replaced the old pics with new 3d rendered pics done in google sketchup.
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#29 MithMorchaint

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 05:24 PM

I don't know if you had considered simply making a rotating piece to turn the darts 90 degrees. It's a very simple mechanism, and would not be hard to make with readily available parts.

Rather than try to describe what I had in mind, I went ahead and made a proof-of-concept model in about 5 minutes using some household items and a pocketknife. If this is not what you want to do, that's fine, but this shows that a.) it works and b.) it's the proper size, and easily made. Further, this would reduce the need for shells, since very little stress is placed on the darts. The only real disadvantage is having to rotate it for each dart...but it could easily be attached to a cocking mechanism to be done at the same time.

So, I'll post some pictures instead of trying to explain it. The materials are a cream cheese container, a ramen noodle cup, a pcket knife, 4 1-yen coins (dimes would work fine), and a tiny little screwdriver - anything long and thin would work.

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^The rotater.

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^The cut cream-cheese container. You can see the rectangular cut for the dart to fall through.

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^The other cut in the cream-cheese container, for the "bolt".

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^The Ramen cup. Obviously both this and the cream-cheese container were cut down in height. UIn this picture you can see the slot cut for the dart, as well as the 4 1-yen coins stuck in it. These are to ensure that the dart stays positioned over the slot and rotates with the cup. Turned out to be unneeded, but good to have. They are staying in place because I cut slits for them to stick into.

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^The Ramen cup witht he tiny screwedriver stuck into it. This piece acts as the "bolt"-handle.

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^Unit assembled, "bolt" closed.

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^"Bolt" open.

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^"Bolt" closed with piece of FBR in it. I held the knife to indicate where the horizontal mag would be relative to this unit.

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^"Bolt" open with piece of FBR in it. Again, knife indicates mag position.

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^Yes, the dart really does fall through.


So yeah. Maybe this was a whole lot of wasted effort, I dunno. It can certainly be appiled to other things as well, but it would work well for this. You would clearly have to work out how to feed darts into it (not hard to do, really, just fill in the empty space to make a ramp), but it would work. Hope this was helpful in some way.
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#30 joeyaglr444

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 09:24 PM

MY friend you are on fire! it seems like its going well KEep it up it looks very hot. Try cleaning up the cuts though, just an idea.
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#31 MithMorchaint

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 10:44 PM

I don't intend to take this any further, this was just a quick working model to show one way that this concept could be worked out. Glad you like it though. And the cuts are crappy because I did everything freehand with a pocketknife on my desk.
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#32 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 01:31 AM

An interesting concept indeed. It may be worth a shot to see if this can be worked on into the small size I'm using. Requiring the firer to rotate the dart feeder manually makes it kind of useless to use a high cap mag like this due to the difficulty in hooking the mag rotator up to the pump,(which is already priming the plunger and simultaneously opening and closing the breach.) The concept of the line up rotation is still worth taking a look at though. With a few tweaks it might be possible to use it somehow.

EDIT:I finally got a working prototype! It's a little sketchy because the double helix seems to not slide well enough sometimes(might just be the insulation foam I'm using though). I have not tested it with the clip attachment but the ramp is almost perfectly built. It works and just needs a few tweaks to get rid of jamming errors.

I'll have 3d rendering pics up as soon as photobucket is done with it's maintenance which will be after I get some sleep, it's pretty late right now.

EDIT:They're up now

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Ignore the forward lip, I couldn't figure out how to get rid of it, assume it is not there and feeds like the pictures on the first page.

Also, the double helix ramps should be more curved to allow the dart to spin easier, but I'm not skilled enough with google sketchup to figure out how to do that so you'll have to live with it, but the general idea is there.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 09 August 2007 - 07:11 PM.

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#33 General Cole

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 09:00 PM

Why not just have a machined or take a piece of steel box and find a way to "twist" it at a machine shop? I could do the 3D work when I get back to Inventor.
We should stop calling out/making fun of/pissing GC off. He's actually contributed and is available for trade. He's a better than average member no doubt. Got your back Cole.
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#34 PREDATOR

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 09:21 PM

Hope this works. P90 is my favorite gun.
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#35 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 04:24 AM

Why not just have a machined or take a piece of steel box and find a way to "twist" it at a machine shop? I could do the 3D work when I get back to Inventor.


I don't have any easy access to a machine shop right now, but the 3D work would be greatly appreciated.
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#36 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 10 August 2007 - 04:44 AM

but the 3D work would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe cobain would like to contribute some actual pictures of the ramp, since he seems to enjoy reminding us all how his father has a P90 and we don't. Also, there is going to be a problem with the last few darts feeding in the helix ramp where the follower in the magazine won't be able to, well, follow. Unless you do a lot of excessive machining or have a really creative idea about that.
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#37 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:08 PM

It would be very helpful if Cobain contributed some pictures of the P90 magazine, he apparently says their digital camera is broken right now =/
I'm going to take a break from this project for a while, but feel free to contribute anything you might think is helpful especially those elusive P90 magazine internals.
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#38 kurtcobain

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 02:40 PM

cobain, is there really any reason for you to keep announcing that you've played with a p90? After all, this is a nerf forum, not a gun enthusiatst's site, and you're not really adding anything to the topic. Your whole "the fact that i've seen/held/fired a REAL LIVE p90 makes me the most knowledgable person in the feild." is kind of obnoxious, and it completely disregards input from people like boltsn!per, who is the authority on complex homemade nerf weaponry. Just saying...


I have been contributing via pm to fleeting ether. What I was trying to do is prove that some people acctually know what there talking about, piney killed my topic about the p90 mag. because he said we didnt know what we were talking about. as everyone can see, he was extremely wrong.
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#39 bjack

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 04:09 PM

Piney ended your topic because you said that if you didn't know anything about P90s then don't post and this site isn't about real guns its about Nerf guns, not because we didn't know anything about them.
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#40 kurtcobain

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:03 PM

If you have the design, why dont you make it?
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#41 zaphodB

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 09:12 PM

Because it's overly complex maybe?

and contributing via PM doesnt really help the community, which is sort of the whole spirit of nerfhaven. Especially in a topic that has generated so much interest.
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#42 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 10:49 PM

If you have the design, why dont you make it?


I may have the general design down, but I need the nitty gritty specifics that only pictures can provide. A picture is worth a thousand words, or around here, a completed project.
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#43 BustaNinja

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 10:54 PM

[sarcasm] I got it... Instead of bashing a kid for pics of his dads gun, we could use the internet, asuming all the people reading this have internet and use my friend Google.

here's a link I found
GOOGLE!!!!

[/sarcasm]

ok. Im sorry for that but you could do it. I just found alot of pictures that explain the p90 mag.
Its just faster.

Edited by BustaNinja, 13 August 2007 - 10:58 PM.

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#44 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 12:51 AM

[sarcasm] I got it... Instead of bashing a kid for pics of his dads gun, we could use the internet, asuming all the people reading this have internet and use my friend Google.

here's a link I found
GOOGLE!!!!

[/sarcasm]

ok. Im sorry for that but you could do it. I just found alot of pictures that explain the p90 mag.
Its just faster.


I've tryed several web searches including google. I have found out a great deal of things from the searchs I've done, including pics of the magazine from the top and bottom views, and descriptions of how it works. We all know it uses a double helix ramp for the rotating from my research. The only thing I need to find which I have yet to see AT ALL is a picture of the internals of the magazine, mainly the rotation ramp(double helix). This one little detail that is driving me nuts trying to find it is what's stopping this whole project from completion. Not to be rude or anything but Kobain is my last resource when it comes to this little detail, I've done hours of researching to no avail on this certain detail, I'm just asking for a little assistance.
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#45 Thom

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 01:08 AM

Fleeting Ęther is right. I tried Google myself when I read this thread, but pages and pages of results came up empty. If you had both searched and carefully read the thread you would know this.
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#46 BustaNinja

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 08:34 AM

I've tryed several web searches including google. I have found out a great deal of things from the searchs I've done, including pics of the magazine from the top and bottom views, and descriptions of how it works. We all know it uses a double helix ramp for the rotating from my research. The only thing I need to find which I have yet to see AT ALL is a picture of the internals of the magazine, mainly the rotation ramp(double helix). This one little detail that is driving me nuts trying to find it is what's stopping this whole project from completion. Not to be rude or anything but Kobain is my last resource when it comes to this little detail, I've done hours of researching to no avail on this certain detail, I'm just asking for a little assistance.


The only problem with wanting so many internal pics is no one is going to rip apart thier mag. I understand why you want them but getting those pics is going to be really hard and googling gave you a better chance then asking some kid for pics. They probably wouldn't be as good.
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#47 Pineapple

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 02:09 PM

Not to be rude or anything but Kobain is my last resource when it comes to this little detail, I've done hours of researching to no avail on this certain detail, I'm just asking for a little assistance.


So you're going to blame kurtcobain on not providing the detail pics of the internals?

Or are you going to blame NerfHaven's admins for taking him out after he was made out to be inconsistent in his claims and posts?


C'mon people. NerfHaven has better members than that.

You don't see Captain Slug or Forsaken_Angel24 blaming conditions outside of themselves for shortcomings. Hell, I don't even tell anyone of my countless screw-ups when modding or fabricating, because instead I decide to MAKE SOMETHING before I start making forum posts about it.

This isn't a slam against what you're doing, although I have formulated opinions about overly-complex designs. It's fine if it makes you happy and keeps you busy. Just remember that once it makes the NerfHaven discussion board, it will be discussed. Not always the way you'd like it.


Good luck, don't give up. The only thing I've seen out of this is MithMorchaint's proof-of-concept model, which by his own admission, is pretty sketchy for a design like this. But hey, "Git-R-done!"


-Piney-
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#48 telekinetic

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 03:06 PM

You've got quite a challenge. I think you need to abandon the idea that the inside of the P90 mag holds all the answers, as brass shells are significantly less deformable than stefans. I've experimented with Cad on this, and haven't had time to generate something resembling a finished product, but I did get some general directions.

The key design requirements are as follows:

You're going to have to figure out some kind of ramp structure that allows the nose and tail of the dart to travel the exact same distance throughout the ramp. If you have one travel farther than the other, you will deform the dart.

You also want to minimize the ramp angles you are subjecting the dart to. The higher the angle, the more force is going to be neccessary to propel darts through it.

To package as tightly as possible, all of my ramp designs have swept up before diving down.

If you want to get an idea of the type of geometry we're talking about, cut a strip of paper to 2" width, and try to curve or bend it in the path you want the stefans to follow. This ensures that both ends of the dart travel the same distance, and we won't have any dart deformation.

If I were going to construct one out of easily available materials, I'd probably take two 2" wide strips of easily bent thin plastic (maybe heat deformable? Hotwheels tracks?) and a bunch of spacers to keep them exactly a half inch apart, and then see how tightly I could make the darts turn.

If I get some time today, I'll do a little more CAD work, and try to get some solids to show you what I'm talking about.

Edited by telekinetic, 14 August 2007 - 03:09 PM.

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#49 MithMorchaint

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Posted 14 August 2007 - 03:42 PM

I have an idea as to how the helix ramp might be done using PVC, wire, and duct tape. If I can find a piece of PVC large enough in diameter, I will give it a shot tonight.

Hint: Instead of waiting for detailed pics and/or CAD drawings, either of which may or may not come, just start experimenting. That's all I'm doing.

Hintx2: A wire form covered in duct tape creates a very maleable track that can be used in the fashion described by Telekinetic in his second to last paragraph. Guess what I'm going to be using for my experiments? You got it.
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