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P90 Helix Ramp Mag


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#1 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 05:52 AM

At the moment I'm working on a p90 helix ramp magazine. I have the feeding drum and the ammo box made. I need some help getting the dual helix ramp correct for the shells to turn properly. Here's the current build.

Posted Image



Posted Image

All I need is a good CAD or other 3d rendition of a dual helix ramp for the rotating of the rounds to be fired. After that I can shape some insulation foam to the correct shape and report back with what I have (hopefully with the digital camera.) I'm actually in the process of building a prototype so it's more than just a theory. Whether it will work or not is yet to be discovered.

Edit: Oh and the materials I used so far are: two gatorade bottle lids(any wide mouth bottle lid will work), 1.5" stefans, insulation foam(the pink stuff at home depot), and tagboard.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 08 August 2007 - 01:41 AM.

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#2 monkey with a nf

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 06:50 AM

I'm glad you're actually building it (I thought this was someone who didn't understand "Thread Closed"), but I still don't think it will work as well as a simple box mag. The feedramp would have to be really precise, and the darts might not survive the ramp (or the ramp the darts, unless foam insulation is harder than I think it is).

However, it would be really cool if it did.
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QUOTE(Pineapple @ Sep 12 2007, 03:13 PM) View Post

For maximum efficiency?


1. Pump up. Count how many pumps.

2. Keep going until you hear a loud "bang".

3. Subtract one pump from the total. Rebuild your air bladder.


There you go.

#3 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:01 AM

Foam insulation is actually pretty sturdy stuff. It's comparable in toughness and texture to hard styrofoam, the really dense stuff. Once the dart rotates through the helix, it drops straight out the bottom into a breach which the charging handle is also linked to the plunger for one stroke pump/shoot action.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 05 August 2007 - 07:04 AM.

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#4 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:19 AM

Very nice. I think Piney killed the last thread about P90 mags because he didn't think we knew what we were talking about (although I have seen and read about P90s, and own a P90 replica Airsoft gun, and I'm sure everyone else who replied to the thread also knew what they were doing). If you need help on the twin-helix ramp, experiment with wire guides placed inside the cap to find the correct angles. Then either glue the wires in or fabricate more sturdy replicas from a different material.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 05 August 2007 - 07:19 AM.

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#5 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:22 AM

Thanks for the tip. Also the reason I wasn't able to make the ramp very well yet is because I couldn't find any pictures of the internals of those clips on google image, google web search, or YouTube, not a single picture. I did however find a link saying that the mag used twin stationary helix ramps so that's the only reason I knew what I needed help on.

I've got a 15 pound coil of 14 gauge steel wire from making chainmail so I'll get to work on the guide rail idea.

Edit:Ugh, that helix ramp is starting to piss me off now. So hard to find any diagrams of dual helix ramps on the internet.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 05 August 2007 - 09:57 AM.

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#6 PREDATOR

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 08:03 PM

So what exactly are these mags going to fit in?
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#7 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 01:01 AM

So what exactly are these mags going to fit in?

They will fit in a custom gun shell designed to hold the magazine in place on top of the weapon like a FN P-90 smg. The magazine's feed ramp will be directly above the breach so the rounds are pushed straight out of the clip into the breach.
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#8 joeyaglr444

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 01:01 PM

This sounds like a fantastic idea, it will be quite a challenge though. This clips is a very intricate design but its not as bad as making a clip for the Hk-11 Heckler and koch assault rifle that looks like a chocolate bar.

Anyhow i cant wait too see what comes of this helix of an idea.
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#9 nerfsharpie6

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 06:03 PM

I don't think that the standard double helix design would work with darts. You would need to go with a single helix, thats a little larger than the dart to make it rotate. Now, also you need to take into account that if the dart gets stuck than the ramp isn't the correct angle to let the dart slide down to the chamber. There are to many things that can go wrong with the ramp but if you really work it out then it may just work. It would be a good design to have for some home mades.
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#10 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:24 PM

Thanks for the enthusiasm towards this project. The 90 degree turn ramp is still providing quite the challenging aspect. But once it is completed you should be able to store up to like 15 darts on a fairly short weapon using 1/2" diameter stefans at 1.5" long. That's alot more than in a traditional box magazine.
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#11 kurtcobain

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:40 PM

Very nice. I think Piney killed the last thread about P90 mags because he didn't think we knew what we were talking about (although I have seen and read about P90s, and own a P90 replica Airsoft gun, and I'm sure everyone else who replied to the thread also knew what they were doing). If you need help on the twin-helix ramp, experiment with wire guides placed inside the cap to find the correct angles. Then either glue the wires in or fabricate more sturdy replicas from a different material.

Piney was right owning an airsoft gun doesnt count for shit. I own (my dad owns) a real p90 (civilian version) so i know how it works. you could use brass shells in it to give the darts more structural integrity.
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#12 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:42 PM

Very nice. I think Piney killed the last thread about P90 mags because he didn't think we knew what we were talking about (although I have seen and read about P90s, and own a P90 replica Airsoft gun, and I'm sure everyone else who replied to the thread also knew what they were doing). If you need help on the twin-helix ramp, experiment with wire guides placed inside the cap to find the correct angles. Then either glue the wires in or fabricate more sturdy replicas from a different material.

Piney was right owning an airsoft gun doesnt count for shit. I own (my dad owns) a real p90 (civilian version) so i know how it works. you could use brass shells in it to give the darts more structural integrity.


I could use brass shells but I'd prefer not to design a system that forces people to use extractors on their guns.
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#13 kurtcobain

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:46 PM

Very nice. I think Piney killed the last thread about P90 mags because he didn't think we knew what we were talking about (although I have seen and read about P90s, and own a P90 replica Airsoft gun, and I'm sure everyone else who replied to the thread also knew what they were doing). If you need help on the twin-helix ramp, experiment with wire guides placed inside the cap to find the correct angles. Then either glue the wires in or fabricate more sturdy replicas from a different material.

Piney was right owning an airsoft gun doesnt count for shit. I own (my dad owns) a real p90 (civilian version) so i know how it works. you could use brass shells in it to give the darts more structural integrity.


I could use brass shells but I'd prefer not to design a system that forces people to use extractors on their guns.



the p90 doesnt have a conventional extractor. really its is gravity operated. the shells just fall out of the back by the operators shoulder. So really you woldnt need an extraction system.

Edited by kurtcobain, 06 August 2007 - 09:47 PM.

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#14 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:50 PM

Piney was right owning an airsoft gun doesnt count for shit. I own (my dad owns) a real p90 (civilian version) so i know how it works. you could use brass shells in it to give the darts more structural integrity.

Which is why I included that I have both seen and read about P90s. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to guns.

As for shells, you can design the system to use them, but it can also be designed with a low-force spring (about the strength of the Longshot magazine spring) to apply pressure, but not enough to crush or deform the darts.
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#15 kurtcobain

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 09:53 PM

Piney was right owning an airsoft gun doesnt count for shit. I own (my dad owns) a real p90 (civilian version) so i know how it works. you could use brass shells in it to give the darts more structural integrity.

Which is why I included that I have both seen and read about P90s. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to guns.

As for shells, you can design the system to use them, but it can also be designed with a low-force spring (about the strength of the Longshot magazine spring) to apply pressure, but not enough to crush or deform the darts.


I'm glad you know what your talking about. Im tired of people saying stuff about guns that they hear off of tv . Thank you for caring lol.

Edited by kurtcobain, 06 August 2007 - 09:54 PM.

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#16 Thom

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 10:16 PM

A low-force spring would severely limit the capacity. What about elastic?
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#17 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 10:24 PM

A low-force spring would severely limit the capacity. What about elastic?

I don't see how the spring would hinder capacity. I wouldn't trust anything like rubber bands or elastic in any kind of magazine though, they have been unreliable for me. Either too much or too little pressure is always applied, and you need to be much more exact about the lengths and fastening, where you can usually find or make a spring that is what you will need it to be and just slip it in the mag.
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#18 Ronster

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 11:45 PM

This topic is very interesting!

I've always wondered about how the P90's mag system worked...

Remember my homemade SMG? Well, I had some really cool ideas for it and one fo them involved a magazine on the side of the gun like the game...but I could never really figure out how exactly the P90's magazine worked... Hell, I even looked up the Heckler and Koch G11, which uses a rotating bolt(but that proved to be too complex for my design).

This is where I ask:


Where did you do your research? How did you find out how the clip works? What the hell do you mean by "Helix"?
I'd just like to know about this very interesting clip design. ;)
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#19 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 12:34 AM

Helix just means that there are two lines that corkscrew along an invisible inner cylinder, while keeping equal distance from each other. An example would be DNA. A helix-shaped transfer ramp is used to orient the shells (or darts) from their horizontal position when in the body of the magazine to the vertical position to be fed into the breach, assuming that you are holding the magazine vertically.
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#20 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 04:38 AM

This topic is very interesting!

I've always wondered about how the P90's mag system worked...

Remember my homemade SMG? Well, I had some really cool ideas for it and one fo them involved a magazine on the side of the gun like the game...but I could never really figure out how exactly the P90's magazine worked... Hell, I even looked up the Heckler and Koch G11, which uses a rotating bolt(but that proved to be too complex for my design).

This is where I ask:


Where did you do your research? How did you find out how the clip works? What the hell do you mean by "Helix"?
I'd just like to know about this very interesting clip design. ;)


The research was done using Google Image Search, Google Web Search, and YouTube. The clip helix design was from google web search. I will experiment with the rotation ramp some more in a little while. I was taking a break for a little while.

EDIT:I think I've found a successful ramp design. I need to get the clip part together to fully test it though, so be patient.

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 07 August 2007 - 04:57 AM.

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#21 telekinetic

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 11:10 AM

Have you addressed the fact that it is going to be very difficult to force darts to turn with only linear spring pressure? I still don't know how you will propel them through the helix without crushing them.
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#22 Fleeting Aether

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 11:24 AM

It seems I don't need to use the helix anymore, after all, they only need to be rotated then they will fall out the bottom into the breach, so it needs some tweaking to some wedges place in the clip. Still not turning out too well yet.

EDIT:Found this while searching altavista

"One of the most interesting features of the P90, which helps make the weapon so compact, is the polycarbonate 50-round magazine that locks in place between the charging handles and the optical sight. The magazine features a follower with rollers and a constant-force spring that make loading a 50-round magazine easy instead of the usual thumb-busting exercise in frustration. But the most noteworthy aspect of the magazine design is that loading one cartridge forces the rounds under it to eventually rotate 90 degrees to the right so they can slide into a double stack of cartridges in the magazine body.

This rotation occurs in stepwise fashion. The first round in the magazine sits in the magazine's feed lips at the 0 degree position (where it will be aligned with the chamber when the magazine is fitted to the weapon). Inserting a second cartridge forces the cartridge under it to rotate to 82 or 83 degrees from the bore angle. Adding another cartridge to the magazine pushes the original round to the 87 degree position. Adding a fourth cartridge forces the original Cartridge to the 90 degree position in the main body of the magazine. Thus, the cartridges go through a four-step process to become fully aligned in a double stack within the magazine."

Edited by Fleeting Ęther, 07 August 2007 - 11:54 AM.

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#23 kurtcobain

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 05:22 PM

It seems I don't need to use the helix anymore, after all, they only need to be rotated then they will fall out the bottom into the breach, so it needs some tweaking to some wedges place in the clip. Still not turning out too well yet.

EDIT:Found this while searching altavista

"One of the most interesting features of the P90, which helps make the weapon so compact, is the polycarbonate 50-round magazine that locks in place between the charging handles and the optical sight. The magazine features a follower with rollers and a constant-force spring that make loading a 50-round magazine easy instead of the usual thumb-busting exercise in frustration. But the most noteworthy aspect of the magazine design is that loading one cartridge forces the rounds under it to eventually rotate 90 degrees to the right so they can slide into a double stack of cartridges in the magazine body.

This rotation occurs in stepwise fashion. The first round in the magazine sits in the magazine's feed lips at the 0 degree position (where it will be aligned with the chamber when the magazine is fitted to the weapon). Inserting a second cartridge forces the cartridge under it to rotate to 82 or 83 degrees from the bore angle. Adding another cartridge to the magazine pushes the original round to the 87 degree position. Adding a fourth cartridge forces the original Cartridge to the 90 degree position in the main body of the magazine. Thus, the cartridges go through a four-step process to become fully aligned in a double stack within the magazine."


Woohoo I applaud your knowledge of the magazine, thank you.
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#24 zaphodB

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 11:05 PM

cobain, is there really any reason for you to keep announcing that you've played with a p90? After all, this is a nerf forum, not a gun enthusiatst's site, and you're not really adding anything to the topic. Your whole "the fact that i've seen/held/fired a REAL LIVE p90 makes me the most knowledgable person in the feild." is kind of obnoxious, and it completely disregards input from people like boltsn!per, who is the authority on complex homemade nerf weaponry. Just saying...
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#25 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 07 August 2007 - 11:28 PM

I wouldn't try doing a staggered magazine. The reason I didn't mention it before was that it isn't an option without shells, because the darts may get deformed by the force of the magazine spring, eventually causing them to strech and try to occupy the dead space in the magazine. This risk could be reduced by using a weaker spring, but I would make sure you know the maximum amount of darts the magazine can hold before this happens at a scale that would render the magazine useless.

Also, you guys don't have to change anything in boltsniper's name. The censor only seeks out the word snįper by itself.

Edited by SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA, 07 August 2007 - 11:28 PM.

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