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#26 Chessler

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 06:59 AM

The difference isn't nearly as great as it used to be, but two reasons are:

1)Sub-pixel font rendering. On Windows, a typeface will be physically changed to fit into the pixel grid. For example, bolds are heavier than in print, and typefaces can look lighter than print. A Mac's font rendering is truer to the actual printed page.

2)Better color management. Workflow color management is overall better, as software solutions are built into the system.


Nothing that couldn't be integrated into a Windows Operating System.

Ergo: No Reason for buying a Mac to me.

Edited by Chessler, 15 June 2007 - 07:03 AM.

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#27 taita cakes

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 07:59 AM

1)Sub-pixel font rendering. On Windows, a typeface will be physically changed to fit into the pixel grid. For example, bolds are heavier than in print, and typefaces can look lighter than print. A Mac's font rendering is truer to the actual printed page.

Ahhhhh I see we read the same article.
What I didn't understand is how Apple came out on top of that argument.
The windows pixel grid meant it looked pretty much the same, but clean and crisp.
The apple interpretation just looked terrible, but at least it's "honest" or whatever.
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#28 Carbon

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 08:30 AM

1)Sub-pixel font rendering. On Windows, a typeface will be physically changed to fit into the pixel grid. For example, bolds are heavier than in print, and typefaces can look lighter than print. A Mac's font rendering is truer to the actual printed page.

Ahhhhh I see we read the same article.
What I didn't understand is how Apple came out on top of that argument.
The windows pixel grid meant it looked pretty much the same, but clean and crisp.
The apple interpretation just looked terrible, but at least it's "honest" or whatever.

Yeah, good article. I thought it was interesting that the summary was really, “If you use Windows, you’ll prefer the Windows display” and vice versa.

What I thought was weird was that they didn’t get into ClearType at all. I thought this was a pretty decent compare/contrast.

But…I think we’ve derailed this iPhone thread enough, don’t you agree?

Edited by Carbon, 15 June 2007 - 08:30 AM.

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#29 LastManAlive

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:24 AM

They put to pockets on pants for a reason. One for you cell phone, one for you music/media player. And for some, they ahve to buy a friggin' mini PC just so that they can call themselves the shit and others just plane shit. I dislike iPod and Apple for my reasons picky as they can be. The latest one though, because the older ones are now fixed, is that they want to sell as many video iPods as they can. So they jack the rpice of a little shitty 1 gig player up to 80~100 bucks and have a 30 gig player at what, 250? Clearly you see the better deal, and if you don't buy iPod as soon as you hear i, then you see my point. My other problem is also where they release updated version after updated version where they could have just sat back and gotten it right the first time. Look at Zune, nothing wrong with it yet.

They have just been that prep side to media players to me. The first media player I ever owned from a Rio. And I still have it. First iPod I ever touched it froze up on me.


You do realize how much smaller the shuffle is, right? It's called miniaturization. Not just of the HDD, but of all the other circuits.

Plus, 250 isn't that great a price for a 30GB player either.


I completely disregard size. It seems you do as well with your pocketPC there RAMBO. And apparently you don't mind shelling out 600 bucks for something that holds as much as maybe a 60 gig would so that you can have the video format that only DVDs have. I'd like to know how you even get the DVD video format on your device. If memory serves me correct, both Microsoft Zune and iPod don't allow that kind of converting from a DVD to a player. You would have to either pay for that like iTunes or illegally download it somehow. And both of those ways of acheiving a certain video format in wrong in my book. I utterly hate paying for media service and it's just too hard to try and get around copyrights and illegal downloading if you ask me.

As for the shuffle, I have seen smaller, or at least as small as, in a player at k-mart that holds 4 times as much and even plays videos on it's little screen for a meer 40 bucks. Might not say iPod or Apple on it, but I would get it as a gift still.

ANYWHO- I still have questions about the iPhone that I just haven't taken the time to read up on. Especially something iPod. So what video and audio formats is it going to support? Anything new? And what other smaller features will it have like external memory ports? The last thing I am wondering is how easy it is to sync with your PC. I know how long it took me to get my KRZR sinced properly. And note to self, don't go with the off brand memory card. So my question breaks down to, will this require more software? The last thing I want to have to do when I buy a new phone is have to spend more money for software just to use one of it's main features.

Edited by LastManAlive, 15 June 2007 - 10:34 AM.

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#30 Pineapple

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:48 AM

Interesting how the discussion started as purposed to discuss the release of the iPhone, and it's attributes and possible shortfalls.

The thread, in typical penis-waving tech-headed Apple-bashing fashion, turned into a loosely-relevant battle of why Apple sucks along with it's entertainment devices.

This is why my phone (NEXTEL i355) does only one thing really really good; make and receive phone calls. . And it won't crap out in inclement weather, or if I jump in the pool. Or it falls out of my holster from 40 feet up the roof.

I still have my i305, but a friend no longer uses NEXTEL and gave me his phone. It's practically the same save for the added Java apps, color screen, and a few other features.


Estimated 100 dollars a month for phone service?


What's even more interesting is that 90% of the members of NerfHaven couldn't even afford to get themselves an iPhone without begging Mommy or Daddy for one (and shame on them if they spoil you with one), and the remaining 10% that can afford it, we really don't give a rat's ass about it for the most part.


Except One Man Clan. He hates Apple. I'd agree, but I've had, for four months now, two Mac Mini's serving as my office system, and I'm still trying to reprogram my PC-raised brain to figure out where everything is, and what it's for.

Widgets. :) There is practically one for every imaginable need.



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#31 Flapper12

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 10:48 AM

The only thing I see good in an Iphone is Itunes or whatever is going to be in it. If you want to listen to music just buy an Ipod or some other mp3 and save a ton of money.
Also, it might be more than 2,000 the first year...won't they be buying songs. Songs=.99 $50=Like 40 songs if I am not mistaken. I had an $50 dollar itunes giftcard and only got like 35 songs. They send you an email after you buy songs with your receipt and they add tax if I remember correctlly. Anyways, these people will probably be spending more than $50 on songs.
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#32 Carbon

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 11:38 AM

So what video and audio formats is it going to support? Anything new?

Standard stuff...H264 compression for video, nothing else on deck (booo!). Audio formats are MP3, AAC, AIFF and Audible (same as an iPod).

And what other smaller features will it have like external memory ports?

External...memory ports? You kidding? This is an iPhone.

Kidding aside, it has the standard iPod jack for synching (and most likely accessories), but what you get is what you get as far as storage.

The last thing I am wondering is how easy it is to sync with your PC.

I'd say use an iPod as your metric on this. Most people love the synch process there, so I'd assume that the iPhone will work similarly with your contacts, music, email, etc. But then, I'm only going on presentations...not like people have really used one extensively.

So my question breaks down to, will this require more software? The last thing I want to have to do when I buy a new phone is have to spend more money for software just to use one of it's main features.

Eveything it comes with is full featured (most likely, though, depending on the data plan you get). The iPhone will have 3rd party apps, but they'll be Web2.0 apps (it's why Safari was released for Windows...it's the iPhone developement platform).

Oh, and to anwser to one of your statements, Piney...I want one, but no way am I paying that much for one.

Edited by Carbon, 15 June 2007 - 11:39 AM.

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#33 NiteWalker

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:33 PM

The iPhone is way too expensive. I don't think it will sell much because of that. It's like the PS3, I don't know that many people who have because of the high cost. I mean, for $600, you could get an Archos 604 (or even 704) WiFi and still get a Razr. I'll admit, I kinda hate Apple, but it still a bad product. Imagine having to press on your screen to call a phone number.
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#34 Rambo

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:42 PM

They put to pockets on pants for a reason. One for you cell phone, one for you music/media player. And for some, they ahve to buy a friggin' mini PC just so that they can call themselves the shit and others just plane shit. I dislike iPod and Apple for my reasons picky as they can be. The latest one though, because the older ones are now fixed, is that they want to sell as many video iPods as they can. So they jack the rpice of a little shitty 1 gig player up to 80~100 bucks and have a 30 gig player at what, 250? Clearly you see the better deal, and if you don't buy iPod as soon as you hear i, then you see my point. My other problem is also where they release updated version after updated version where they could have just sat back and gotten it right the first time. Look at Zune, nothing wrong with it yet.

They have just been that prep side to media players to me. The first media player I ever owned from a Rio. And I still have it. First iPod I ever touched it froze up on me.


You do realize how much smaller the shuffle is, right? It's called miniaturization. Not just of the HDD, but of all the other circuits.

Plus, 250 isn't that great a price for a 30GB player either.


I completely disregard size. It seems you do as well with your pocketPC there RAMBO. And apparently you don't mind shelling out 600 bucks for something that holds as much as maybe a 60 gig would so that you can have the video format that only DVDs have. I'd like to know how you even get the DVD video format on your device. If memory serves me correct, both Microsoft Zune and iPod don't allow that kind of converting from a DVD to a player. You would have to either pay for that like iTunes or illegally download it somehow. And both of those ways of acheiving a certain video format in wrong in my book. I utterly hate paying for media service and it's just too hard to try and get around copyrights and illegal downloading if you ask me.

As for the shuffle, I have seen smaller, or at least as small as, in a player at k-mart that holds 4 times as much and even plays videos on it's little screen for a meer 40 bucks. Might not say iPod or Apple on it, but I would get it as a gift still.

ANYWHO- I still have questions about the iPhone that I just haven't taken the time to read up on. Especially something iPod. So what video and audio formats is it going to support? Anything new? And what other smaller features will it have like external memory ports? The last thing I am wondering is how easy it is to sync with your PC. I know how long it took me to get my KRZR sinced properly. And note to self, don't go with the off brand memory card. So my question breaks down to, will this require more software? The last thing I want to have to do when I buy a new phone is have to spend more money for software just to use one of it's main features.


I do not want this to turn into an argument and am going to do my best to be as little agressive as possible.

I'd just like to make a quick comparison here.
Smartphones such as Treo run Windows Mobile, while iPhones run OSX. Now, I'm not going to say which I prefer, or that one is better. However, I have heard cases of people running OSX on Treos. I highly doubt it will be possible to load Windows Mobile onto an iPhone. Anyway, that said, most smartphones are capable to do everything the iPhone can. Some require extra software, but open source is available for a good bit of it. While I know of no smartphones that have an 8GB capacity, they're also $200+ cheaper than the iPhone and they take SD cards. Last time I checked you could find 4GB SD cards for <$50. Get two, and you've got more capacity(with a tiny bit of hassle, sure).

What am I getting at? All I'm saying is my Archos is more justifiable than this iPhone. How, you ask? I've already give you an example of how you can get a better phone(it might not be as sleek, but it's more durable and has a real keyboard) for less money. Again, getting OSX on would be a hassle, but I'm actually liking Windows Mobile more than I thought I would. My Archos on the other hand is only rivaled by the Wolverine ESP player which has a 120GB capacity plus card support. It looks ugly as shit though, and does not have all the same features, and the price wasn't drastically different.

If I may make the assumption that you are referring to my Archos, I'll continue. It cost me $500. Which is pretty much reasonable seeing as it is the highest capacity player on the market. I don't HAVE to use VOB format. I can use mp4 just as the iPod can. If I want, I can have all the movies on my PC and transfer them as I need them. However, I usually only put them on for long trips, I really have no use for video any other time.

Regarding DVD encryption and transfers. As I know it, it is illegal to make a copy of a movie onto another median(such as a DVD to a PC). There are programs out there that allow you to do so though. Here's my POV - I can do this with music so long as I don't distribute it, why the fuck can't I do it for a movie? I own it, I'm using it, where's the problem?

Microsoft and Apple have little say in what you are legally allowed to do. The DMCA has it's rules and Apple and Microsoft cannot say that they're not going to follow them. They can be stricter, yes, but I'm not aware of their rules specifically.

It really is not that hard to get around DVD encryptions though.

Also, don't be so quick to jump the gun on those K-Mart players. As I've said in other posts, encoding rates can be drastically different depending on what quality music you want. K-Mart could be advertising X number of songs on a bit rate that is 1/4 of what Apple advertises. I'm not saying it's necessarily the case, but it very well could be. Also, as much as I hate to say it, the Shuffle is probably much more durable than the K-Mart player.

I apologize if my ramblings seem incoherent.


The iPhone is way too expensive. I don't think it will sell much because of that. It's like the PS3, I don't know that many people who have because of the high cost. I mean, for $600, you could get an Archos 604 (or even 704) WiFi and still get a Razr. I'll admit, I kinda hate Apple, but it still a bad product. Imagine having to press on your screen to call a phone number.


I see where you're coming from but have to disagree on a couple points.

Sure, for that price you could do what you say, but the Archos 704 isn't exactly portable. Yeah, it's portable in the sense that you can take it with you, but if you have pockets that can fit it you belong in the circus.

Another point one could argue is that the Razr just doesn't have the features an iPhone does.

Edited by RAMBO, 15 June 2007 - 12:49 PM.

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#35 Carbon

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 01:04 PM

I'd just like to make a quick comparison here.
Smartphones such as Treo run Windows Mobile, while iPhones run OSX. Now, I'm not going to say which I prefer, or that one is better. However, I have heard cases of people running OSX on Treos. I highly doubt it will be possible to load Windows Mobile onto an iPhone. Anyway, that said, most smartphones are capable to do everything the iPhone can. Some require extra software, but open source is available for a good bit of it. While I know of no smartphones that have an 8GB capacity, they're also $200+ cheaper than the iPhone and they take SD cards. Last time I checked you could find 4GB SD cards for <$50. Get two, and you've got more capacity(with a tiny bit of hassle, sure).

You hit the market for the iPhone, right there: general functionality of a smartphone, with less hassle. At a higher price. One just needs to decide how much money "hassle" is worth.
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#36 PharaonArin

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 05:03 PM

Ok here are two things i disagree on with most people. You can run Vista or XP on a mac. Its called parallel or boot camp. You choose what kind you want to use on startup. Second the iphone will be bought just because it has the apple logo on it. I like apple stuff but this phone seems like a waste to me. There are better phones with more features than an iphone that are cheaper.
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#37 LastManAlive

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 06:02 PM

I don't think that the phone aspect of it will be all that good. It seems more lik eyou are just buying an 8 gig video iPod that can call people. So what, will it ge yet another phone that plays songs and videos, like a 75/25 deal? Or is it an iPod that can make a phone call and maybe send a message, like a 25/75 deal?

iPod, in many minds, is already weak to me. So making one with a phone or built into a phone is just going to make a weak phone in my book. I see no reason to get it unless you are an Apple inthusiast.
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#38 six-five-two

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 06:08 PM

And also... all the computers at my computer lab at school run Macintoshes... it is so funny when you take a piece of paper, fold it up and put it in the CD slot.. the thing sometimes grips it and pulls it into the CD tray. I did this with a small protractor I found once and it went in.. then the protractor came out!

One thing I really like about Apple though is closing programs, I mean... I don't even have to press the "Close" button at the top of the window! It automatically does it for me!
In other words... most programs randomly crash with it for some reason.

If this is too off topic, I can delete it...

Edited by six-five-two, 15 June 2007 - 06:11 PM.

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#39 taita cakes

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 09:49 PM

To whoever was talking about target markets etc.
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#40 Rambo

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 12:30 AM

Ok here are two things i disagree on with most people. You can run Vista or XP on a mac. Its called parallel or boot camp. You choose what kind you want to use on startup. Second the iphone will be bought just because it has the apple logo on it. I like apple stuff but this phone seems like a waste to me. There are better phones with more features than an iphone that are cheaper.


Not sure what you're getting at about dual boot. You can dual boot on a PC with Mac and Windows. It's hard as hell, but possible.

Are you saying you think the iPhone will have the capability to run Windows Mobile and OSX on dual boot? I doubt it will be possible without a lot of hacking.
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#41 Carbon

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 07:26 AM

Ok here are two things i disagree on with most people. You can run Vista or XP on a mac. Its called parallel or boot camp. You choose what kind you want to use on startup. Second the iphone will be bought just because it has the apple logo on it. I like apple stuff but this phone seems like a waste to me. There are better phones with more features than an iphone that are cheaper.


Not sure what you're getting at about dual boot. You can dual boot on a PC with Mac and Windows. It's hard as hell, but possible.

No what he's saying is that you can dual boot a Mac, very easily, between Windows and OSX. Actually, you can triple boot it if you like, also easily.

But then, that gets away from the whole iPhone discussion.
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#42 Rambo

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:30 PM

Official rates:

$60/mo - 450 voice, 5,000 weekend/night voice, 200 text
$80/mo - 900 voice, unltd weekend/night voice, 200 text
$100/mo - 1,350 voice, unltd weekend/night voice, 200 text

All have unlimited data/media, rollover, and mobile-to-mobile. Not as bad as I thought, but not great.
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#43 badger

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 04:51 PM

Official rates:

$60/mo - 450 voice, 5,000 weekend/night voice, 200 text
$80/mo - 900 voice, unltd weekend/night voice, 200 text
$100/mo - 1,350 voice, unltd weekend/night voice, 200 text

All have unlimited data/media, rollover, and mobile-to-mobile. Not as bad as I thought, but not great.


Wow! That is actually high. I have a Sprint Plan with 5 phones on it. I pay $140 a month for 3500 minutes, unlimited nights and weekends, and unlimited text (mind you, all these features are for all 5 handsets, except the 3500 minutes, which are shared). All phones that are capable of doing it also have unlimited picture and video messages, unlimited internet access, which on mine allows me to go on NH, plus mine has 10 free song downloads a month.

As an added bonus against the iPhone, the only cellular carrier at this time is AT&T.

This still has not persuaded me into caving in and joining any part of the iPropaganda experience.
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#44 Rambo

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 05:02 PM

Can I ask why you need 5 phones?

The iPhone has a lot more features though...
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#45 badger

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 05:10 PM

Can I ask why you need 5 phones?

The iPhone has a lot more features though...


I have 5 phones to help some dear friends out. They each pay me every month their share of the bill. Maryann and my firends Katherine, Diane and Jaime all have one. They were in a rough spot at one point, so I gave them some help.

The features don't really impress me. My phone can do alot, but in the end, it's just a phone. It's not worth the cost for all those features. I wonder how quickly the extra goodies eat up the battery life?

I'm just waiting for NJ to finalize the changes on the cell phone driving law. All the "cool" people that have iPhones when it happens will be paying alot more if they use it while driving.
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#46 SirTofu

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 06:25 PM

Putting in my two cents:

Apples products are well engineered and flashy.
But the way they design their interfaces on their products are annoying as hell. They make their products "easier to use" by dumbing down the interface.
Apple decided to really quit improving their os's and turn to making flashy products.
So do I care that they released an Iphone? Of course not.
The Ipod is already an inferior mp3 player that the masses will buy.
Of course, I am an Audiophile and care more about the quality and intuitiveness of the software than that something looks like a soapbox.

I think the masses again will shell out money for the Iphone, no matter how good it is.

In case OMC wanted more explanation of why Graphic Artists think Macs are the best, here's why:
There was once a time that Macs kicked the shit out of PCs in the graphic arts category, but that time is long gone. However, people still belive that the mac is better because people get used to a system and are used to the idea that MacOS is so much better for it. Nowadays there really isn't that much of a difference.

Edited by SirTofu, 29 June 2007 - 06:31 PM.

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#47 All Star

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 07:21 AM

My Dad already bought one,It was $500.
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#48 Jergling

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 02:32 PM

I think there was a missed point here in the graphics thing (yes, I'm further derailing the topic, I know)

Macs still have several things better that Windows, mainly in graphics and storage/data management. Mac's Hard drives never have to be defragged, due to the more advanced storage system-something that Windows would require an entire system rewrite from scratch to make available, not to mention the product recalls for harddrive disfunctions after programming problems. Macs also have integrated graphics memory, simplifying the way the graphics work. Macs are made for media, Windows works well with direct data input (games and docs).

typically, macs are used for graphics because they become "traditional" and becuase they handle graphics well.

The iPhone probably won't do well, honestly. It is an apple flop, but it's still awsome in capabilities. I was really just waiting for it to come out so I could see the demo models in the apple store :)
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#49 Rambo

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 03:08 PM

So, I'm assuming with integrated graphics that you can't upgrade your GPU without buying a whole new machine? No thanks.

Who said PCs have to be defraged? I don't defrag my Linux machine and rarely my Windows.
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#50 SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA

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Posted 02 July 2007 - 06:57 PM

Who said PCs have to be defraged? I don't defrag my Linux machine and rarely my Windows.

It's just a good practice, and helps your PC run faster and better when you get the hard drive cleaned out and some extra memory freed up. I have so much shit on mine that I can't afford to pass up opportunities like those. Also, I would hope that there's some way to upgrade the GPU without buying excess software, hardware, or just a whole new iPhone.
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