23 replies to this topic

[Sponge Nerfer]

Rifled barrels have been in the back of my mind for quite some time now. The idea seems to have some potential. Nerf guns are not very accurate at long range and using rifled barrels might solve that problem.

A real gun uses rifled barrels in this way: When the bullet is fired it is deformed and slides inside the grooves of the rifled barrel creating spin, increasing range and accuracy. If you dont get it, think of a football. When a football player throws the ball he throws it with spin, this works in the same way as the bullet, because the football player throws it with spin it goes further and will reach his target with more accuracy.

The thing is, as I said when a reall bullet is fired through a rifled barrel is is deformed into the groves and thus is given spin. A nerf gun does not produce nearly enough power to deform a bullet in that way. However nerf darts are made of foam and foam is squishy. I think if you get a dart that fits very tightly into a barrel it would squeez into the grooves and when fired, would be given spin.

The last problem is, how does one rifle a barrel? Well here is my answer:



I think that by using threaded rods, such as those you could rifle a barrel. Simply pick a rod that has the same outer diameter as the inner diameter of you barrel. Then use some means of twisting the rod through the barrel carving grooves into inside of the barrel. Thus you have a rifled barrel.

Tommorow I will probably get to home depot, get some rod of the right size and try this out.

Tell me if you think this is possible, I dont want to waste cash on rod if it seems like a stupid idea to most of you guys.

-sponge

[JurassicPark]

Vasili(sp) tried this before. He tested it out of a SS2 with brass, petg and rifled petg. The rifled petg when it worked, worked well. But that didn't happen a lot. Your better off with normal barrels.

[Cmdrmack]

The problem with rifled barrels is that they turn some of the forward energy into rotational energy, so you're going to improve accuracy but ranges will drop. Perhaps with a very high-powered gun like a Titan which has range to spare, but otherwise Nerf doesn't have the power to make rifling all that effective.

[euphemism]

I have nothing against the principle of rifled nerf barrels but I can tell you right now that those threads are no good for it (the twist rate is far to high). If you feel like taking some measurements and doing a little math then take a look at this formula for figuring out the correct twist rate. Of course figuring this out and applying it are two very different things.

[CaptainSlug]

No, just no.
To add rifling you would need a tap, and more specifically a tap with a very low thread count at a shallow angle.
Nerf type darts gain their stability from forward-loaded weight distribution, not from rotation. They're just not the right kind of medium nor do you have enough force behind the acceleration of the projectile for rifling to really accomplish anything reliably.

Please drop the idea. It's simply not applicable to this kind of ammunition.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 08 April 2007 - 10:22 PM.

[CROW]

Out of pure curiousity, would plasticine (unsure about the spelling) at the right consistency be able to make use of any rifling done to a barrel? I figure that if it was cooled to the right temperature, and fired with enough force, it might spin in the shallow grooves. I have no clue if this would be effective, or would even work at all, but I thought I might as well voice the idea.

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

CROW, on Apr 9 2007, 11:34 PM, said:

Out of pure curiousity, would plasticine (unsure about the spelling) at the right consistency be able to make use of any rifling done to a barrel?

Maybe, but I doubt that it would be good for anything other than target practice. The force that would be needed to make the pellet spin would probably be more than anyone wants to get hit with, especially since the plasticine would need to be almost frozen to resist deformation.

[Prometheus]

Yeah, the force required to spin the projectile is phenominal. I'm gonna have to say some people need to use the search button more, because any idiot can understand what CaptainSlug means when he says drop it already. Obviously somebody mentioned it a while ago, and nothing productive became of it. Why would you go to all that work for a little accuracy, when range is something you are more likely going to want?

[King Of Butt Land]

Rifling is something best left to small bore potato rifles. It only seems logical to rifle something that has some "wasted" energy or is inaccurate.

-Butt

[CaMbLaM]

The thing is when a bullet is shot out of a barrel with riffling it spins. However its like the earth revolving around the sun. It spins on one axis but it moves around another. in slow motion it bounces around in the air. This is why higher speed ammo is often less accurate then regular velocity, because the faster the round exits the barrel the more spin on the bullet and the more "bouncing." That said riffing still makes guns more accurate.

My point in all this is, Darts aren’t balanced that well and will probably won’t handle the spin well. I can't imagine this would work that well if at all, but try anyway.

[davenelz]

I think it would work a lot better if the threads werent as tight.

Rifled barrels usually have a long rifled spiral, not very condensed tight ones

[Prometheus]

Yeah, usually rifling in a barrel is measured in inches per thread (1 full turn), whereas threaded rod is measured in threads per inch. 1 is the inverse of the other, so obviously it won't work. Also, in a rifle, the rifling is usually fairly deep compared to the bullet, so this would result in a lot of air loss around the dart as the FBR will not fit into the grooves perfectly.

[butleriscool123]

It would also rip up the dart if it were a long barrel.

[One Man Clan]

1 Post, and this guy understands. Congrats. New arrivals, take note.

[CD-R]

I have gotten some succes with a crude method of my own design:
Basically, you get a piece of brass that fits in side your barrel ( I use CPVC) and put aslice in the end of it about 1/4 of an inch long. After that, you fold out the area near the slice just a few degrees to make a sharp corner. You will have to do some experimenting to find out how much you bend out the brass, as it depends on barrel type. Next is the tricky bit, take the brass, and heat it up on a gas stove until your flame starts to turn green. (This part is dangerous, make sure you wear heat proof gloves when holding the barrel and the brass that you can get off if the heat starts to get through. Also, like I need to tell you guys this, but try not to burn your house down, and immediately after using the heated metal, dunk it in a bucket of water to cool it down). After the metal is heated, jam it down the barrel while twisting it at a constant rate. Then pull it out while making sure that the threads go the same way. Repeat this afew times to get the barrel sufficiently rifled.
The method is crude, yet efffective. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel that my shots go straighter with barrels treated this way; however, I don't have any data to back this up.

Edited by CD-R, 30 April 2007 - 07:14 PM.

[bored kid93]

CD-R, on Apr 30 2007, 05:12 PM, said:

I have gotten some succes with a crude method of my own design:
Basically, you get a piece of brass that fits in side your barrel ( I use CPVC) and put aslice in the end of it about 1/4 of an inch long. After that, you fold out the area near the slice just a few degrees to make a sharp corner. You will have to do some experimenting to find out how much you bend out the brass, as it depends on barrel type. Next is the tricky bit, take the brass, and heat it up on a gas stove until your flame starts to turn green. (This part is dangerous, make sure you wear heat proof gloves when holding the barrel and the brass that you can get off if the heat starts to get through. Also, like I need to tell you guys this, but try not to burn your house down, and immediately after using the heated metal, dunk it in a bucket of water to cool it down). After the metal is heated, jam it down the barrel while twisting it at a constant rate. Then pull it out while making sure that the threads go the same way. Repeat this afew times to get the barrel sufficiently rifled.
The method is crude, yet efffective. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel that my shots go straighter with barrels treated this way; however, I don't have any data to back this up.

Ok, this isn't quite rifling, but it has a rifling effect. Ok , basically you just make diagonal cuts on the outside of the barrel near the tip, the only tool needed is a dremel. The finished job should look like the flash hiders you see on a rifle

[Pineapple]

CaptainSlug, on Apr 8 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Nerf type darts gain their stability from forward-loaded weight distribution, not from rotation. They're just not the right kind of medium nor do you have enough force behind the acceleration of the projectile for rifling to really accomplish anything reliably.

Did anyone listen to Sluggy?

I emphasized his last sentence. Soft, pliable foam and lead composites (with or without copper jackets, as in most modern ammunition) are polar opposites, in density, pliability, rebound, and just plain overall material characteristics.

It's the momentum of the forward weight, with the foam behind it providing enough frictional drag to create relative stability (I say relative because we all have had darts "fishtail" when we put a little too much power behind them).


I find that the exact opposite of rifling seems true; when my inner barrel surfaces are smoothbored, I get much better accuracy, or at the very least, consistency, than if there's any bits of drag in the barrel, which rifling would do by design. I try to polish the inside of my SCH40 (mega stefan) sized barrels, and my PETG barrels are pretty smooth already.

Try your best if you might, but you won't convince me that rifling will make a Nerf blaster more accurate. Period.

It's been discussed in the past here last year,

over here in '05,

in 2004,

and waaay back in '03.

The consensus remains the same. Answers from the resident expert engineer (Boltsniper). Rifled barrels = waste of time. Most of the posters who were convinced it would work are long gone now.

CaptainSlug, on Apr 8 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Please drop the idea. It's simply not applicable to this kind of ammunition.

I'm prepared to make that the title of this thread.


-Piney-

[CaptainSlug]

And aside from just the material properties involved you might as well be asking if rifling would improve the accuracy of a finned projectile.
If you have an inherently stable projectile then rifling is pretty a fruitless route to tread down.
Conventional slug rounds are spun with rifling because they are not inherently stable projectiles.

And just as one further example: most modern tank designs use fin-stabilized sabot rounds with smoothbore barrels. Smoothbore barrels are easier to clean and offer higher velocities for the same amount of charge. The accuracy comes from the inherent stability of the projectile itself, and the fact that a smoothbore barrel needs less maintenance (i.e. cleaning) to maintain that level of accuracy.

And to put the last nail in the coffin, the level of precision needed to even make an effectively rifled barrel for any kind of compressed air weapon is beyond any of your collective machining abilities or even mine.

Please let the idea die as it was meant to years ago.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 05 May 2007 - 06:06 PM.

[CD-R]

Point taken.

[bored kid93]

Well , nerf darts dont go through the air at speeds of 2000 ft per second , so I agree that its less than practical for rifling out your nerf gun.

[jwasko]

Sorry, everyone, for bringing back this hated topic. I realize that rifled barrels aren't practical and all that, but I'm just going to say four words and then walk away:

Whitworth Rifle...

...Research it.

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

jwasko, correct me if I'm wrong, but Nerf guns don't use 500-grain high-power slugs as ammunition. The forces that make the rifling in the Whitworth muzzle-loaders effective are phenominal, far beyond the capability of any of our guns. We have already explained that rifling in Nerf guns is far beyond practical, and almost impossible to get into a mildly effective pattern. If this were a site devoted to actual firearms, your "contribution" would have actually been worth something. I really hope that this is the last post in this topic.

[Prometheus]

Also take note of the fact that we have varying foam sizes, of which almost all is round... which makes the Whitworth totally irrelevant. Good call SHA.

[Cmdrmack]

I've seen some trapezoidal FBR, as well as Triangular.

Finding a barrel material like that would be almost impossible though. Espcially with the kind of twist to make the rifling effective.