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[evolution] - Stage One


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#1 Sandman

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 02:01 PM

As many of you have discovered through our [Evolution] signatures, a new project has been in the works - Nerf Evolved. This site combines the best aspects of any great Nerf site, and it is our hope you will appreciate the hard work we have put into it.

Nerf Evolved is a site being run by an all-star staff. You'll notice many of the faces and names as persons of authority on different Nerf Sites. These are the people that have shaped Nerf Evolved to what it is, but it is you, the community, who will decide the future of NE.

Today is the opening of the forums. Since Nerf Evolved is hosted on the Forum-125 Network, the NE Forums are part of the newest version of F-125 (the final stage of F-125v4 is almost completed). All previous accounts on F-125 could not be carried over, but active members of F-125v3 have been carried over through pre-registration. Don't fret though, registration is quick.

Feel free to post in the F-125 forums for now, but the Nerf Evolved Forums are what is crucial to the site. I won't go into a lengthy explanation of what that statement means, but you'll find out soon when stage two is reached. Don't worry, Nerf Evolved will be worth the anticipation.
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#2 Spoon

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:12 PM

Why, exactly, do we need another set of forums for the (very small) nerf community? All this is going to lead to is the greater stratification and diffusion of the already fledgling online Nerf community.

Aside from the flashy intro page, what exactly is your site going to add that sites like Nerf Haven, Nerf HQ and Nerf Center don't already have?



We don't need more forums. What we need is for you people (ie: the internet nerf community) to just go back to enjoying nerf for what it is and enjoy it, and quit this fantasy-leader grandstanding where all that counts is your "elder status" among a group of not more than 50 unpopular adolescants.

I don't mean to be so negative. The site looks nice and it's obvious you guys put a lot of hard work into it, I guess I'm just kind of questioning the direction the "community" is taking.
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#3 The Infinite Shindig

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:28 PM

Spoon, you do bring a fairly valid point that a community of our size does not need another site with forums. The idea of this project is mostly content. The webmaster has all but disappeared on the day of launch, so the portal was not launched. There is a ton of original content there that a lot of different nerfers worked on. The goal is to build a site that constantly catalogs nerf information. The forum helps to do that because there are generators that build article pages from submissions directly to the forums.

The goal is to create an archive that is supported by the forums. I do somewhat agree with your point, but then again, I did not start the project. Nor did I build the site. I submitted a lot of content to it and want to see how it turns out.
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#4 VACC

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 03:36 PM

I'm not gonna' knock the site before it has time to take off, but I do think Spoon has hit on a few key points. This "evolution" project just doesn't seem all that....evolved. I dunno, I think people need to stop takeing themselves and nerf so seriously. I know, I know, I wrote some articles about living and breathing and fucking nerf and shit, but I think a lot of people have missed the point. I was fucking joking, and I'm full of shit. Yeah, I wanted people to think about nerf more, but not as a religion...as a game. It should be fun. Taking nerf seriously is just like taking yourself too seriously...fucking gay and shit.

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#5 Sandman

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 04:15 PM

The "NIC" (or so it's dubbed) has sites focused on forums, and then sites focused on content. It's mostly because it's hard to regulate both at the same time, so we're integrating one into the other, and thus letting the community have a way to make (potentially) the largest base of Nerf-related content available. You can assume all the intentions behind it that you want (elder status, overly seriousness and whatnot), but you're going to have to excuse me while I try to help spread the hobby that I have grown to love and enjoy.

I didn't mean for this post to come off as cocky, arrogant, or anything negative. I'm just asking you guys to hold the deep philosophical interpretations and stuff till after the rest of the site is out.
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#6 VACC

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 06:28 PM

I suppose that request is fair enough, but you'll have to excuse me if I assume for the sole purpose of making an ass out of u. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! TAKE THAT BITCH!!

VACC
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#7 Zero Talent

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 09:02 PM

Nerf Evolved - An advertising ploy. We didn't really think too much about the name.. What's in a name, after all?

Forum integration - A handy dandy device that just assists and encourages people to contribute their ideas; Compare to a properly labelled washroom at a service station versus a portapotty hidden in a forest.

"All-star staff" - The people who decided join it.

Forums - A good reason why, perhaps, NHQ, NH, and now NE, should all conglomerate. This will never happen, because each site's staff seems to prefer their own name brand. Silly counter-productive ones. NE's are rather bright right now, and we ask you bear with it.

Opinion - A personal belief held by a particular person, for reasons of experience, knowledge, logic, or the lack thereof.

Nerf as a serious sport - Not really intended by NE, this is simply an attempt at unifying the community, and compiling information regarding Nerf. It's no Apocalypse. Or Armageddon. Or Four Horsemen. Just another site regarding a silly activity that involves firing foam at people.

Vacc's wang - Low elastic modulus? Hopefully, Vacc will never measure.
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#8 merlinski

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 09:30 PM

I think that anyone who has objections is taking this site a little too seriously. The whole name is, for the most part, an attempt to find something that sounds cool, hasn't been used before, and sorta communicates the idea of changing. The entire purpose is to make a site where the flow of content really doesn't depend on how active a few webmasters. We don't want to create a brand new forum to "compete" with NH, NHQ, and NC. There are enough already, we just wanted to have some fun designing something that really doesn't depend on our constant efforts to succeed as a content-heavy site.
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#9 rawray7

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 10:20 PM

how exactly do "cool, thoughtful, etc..." posts become archived in the glory of Nerf Evolved. it says something like: type something, read it, and if it's cool, it will go down in NE history. i'm assuming you guys are just attempting to make posts more article-type material, but the real question is who deems it worthy of evolution? i mean, do the 'allstars' go through every post and pick the ones that are noteworthy, then evolutionate them? i guess i just don't understand how you're building your content. i mean, look around: NC's content was all done by about 4 guys, about 3-4 years ago; NHQ has very little content, and what's there is all done by about 6 guys; and even here there are about 7 people who have contributed anything, and only 2 contribute on a regular basis. i'm a little skeptical on how you're building content out of a vacuum of useful ideas. maybe the whole point is to make people think about what the fuck they're posting, and if you can pull it off, i salute you, because that really needs to happen; but an outlet for the creative ideas of the majority of the NIC is really a wasted cause, because to tell you the truth, i don't see too many creative ideas coming out of the average forum-schmuck.

in conclusion: i'm not doubting your site so much as i'm doubting the source you're intrusting the content level to. it just means that now i have to check 4 boards instead of 3 to try and find something interesting.
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#10 Zero Talent

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 10:26 PM

Perhaps it will serve as a last writhing of the intellectual cultivation of the Nerf community. Perhaps it will just die out from lack of user activity. Either way, a fun time.
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#11 cxwq

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 11:23 PM

First off, I've got to salute the evolved team for putting in the effort to try to make the online nerf world a better place. With that out of the way, I'll jump right into a couple of premature considerations, comparisons, and/or conundrums...

User-Driven Content: Connection made in heaven or invitation to disaster?

Not to take anything away from you guys but this seems an awful lot like Andy's open::nerf concept. My opinion now isn't any different than it was when I talked to Andy about it 6 months ago. While I applaud the open-source feel, I doubt there are more than a handful of people in the community with the desire and ability to create strong content. I hope I'm wrong and look forward to watching your progress.

Community Leadership: Is this really all of us?

When I saw the evolved-related hype at NHQ I was reminded forcibly of the surest sign of a sinking ship in the tech industry. A bunch of the core programmers, the people who do the real work and have the great ideas, decide to leave and start their own company. Granted, nobody did any leaving but you'd have to agree that it's not that big a stretch. Why is it that the same dozen people (plus or minus one or two a year as they drift in and out) are always running the NIC?

As rawray7 pointed out, the 'regulars' check all relevant forums, so I don't buy the typical concept of multiple forums fragmenting the user base. What does interest me is the possibility that three or four forums might spread the leadership too thin for them to be effective. About half of us are on the staff at more than one site.

I'll agree to reserve my opinion (and not take you too seriously!) if Sandman will retract his statement that no existing sites have both strong content and strong forums... <g>
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#12 GunnedDown

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 11:49 PM

"All-star staff" - The people who decided join it.

*cough* decided.. heh..
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#13 VACC

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Posted 07 August 2003 - 11:53 PM

And make him say nice things about my wang! I demand Reparations for my wang!

VACC
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#14 Cadmond

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 01:48 AM

Very good points, and yes, this site will be broken or force fed spinach depending on the user base. Which might suck.. Admittedly, I didn't join NHQ for a few months after it actually got popular. No way, I was keen with my nerf center.

Basically, what nerf evolved (which is really a more attracitve name then "nerf-farked.com") was created to do was to bring a mass of content, which some of us actually HID (this is where sandman is supposed to assassinate me) from the community for the last few months (or longer) and utilize forums to increase that amount beyond what our "all-star staff" could create. Not to say we don't want the forums used for other things.. such as apologizing to vacc for insulting his penis' tensile strength.

Anywho, yes, as sandman stated this content bit would be out faster if it weren't due to some technical issues. Hope for tommorow.
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#15 ZATZAi

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:16 AM

I'm the one responsible for the site nto going up yesterday, I succummed to sleep while working on the code, it will go up today.

Andrew was just covering for me...


Currently, NE has a huge amount of content, and its all posted on the forum, except regular users do not have access to it. member can post in a member submission forum, and if its good enough, we'll move it to the appropriate forum. Some PHP I wrote then takes all the various forums and their topics and makes the NE site in PHP based on it.

Cxwq is right, most regualr check all the forums. On F-125 though, we do force sites we host to use our forums so that all the F-125 Network Member sites have the same member base, but if the sites requires, we can section off a part of the forum just for them, skin it and everything...

Oh, and F-125 and NE in turn, will in the near future be implementing some thing to make using and checking up on the forum even easier and faster than ever before possible, as the software to do so simple has nto existed for any forum before...
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#16 Sandman

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:09 PM

*snip*

I'll agree to reserve my opinion (and not take you too seriously!) if Sandman will retract his statement that no existing sites have both strong content and strong forums... <g>

Thanks for your comments! We started planning this before Andy announced his open::nerf project (to my knowledge, at least), and I was a bit taken back by how similar it seemed. We actually exchanged a few e-mails to try to iron out some details.

My bad on the strong content/strong forum system. I was trying to make the point that it's tough to regulate a powerful forum while trying to maintain an efficient way of putting up content. NH, and hopefully NE, are the exceptions.

And VACC, I'll have nothing to do with your wang.
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#17 Zero Talent

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:27 PM

So, judging by the response to the idea, no one's too keen on conglomerating the sites into something more useful for the community? Given, it would break "Veteran Haven's" particular status with an influx of newbies, but I think it would be a lot handier to just have one site. It's not like we're competing or anything... We have nothing to compete for.

NHQ's user base, with forum-driven content, as well as a karmatic moderation system, would truly be interesting. I'm sure the "newbies" would feel a lot more comfortable when their ideas can easily be displayed on a central site (provided a loose quality review; grammar, plagiarism, cohesive use of language, etc.), and even get an equal shot in the moderation system... It would certainly help kill imagined concepts of "veteran" status and such, and avoid previous ideas lost in the downtrodding of forum topics.

But hey, if you guys all want separate forums for a small user base (this includes you, NE kids), keep your plans.
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#18 VACC

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 07:57 PM

Zero, I love ya', but shut the fuck up. I entertain no notion of veteren/noobie staus. I haven't since before any of you knew me, and I still don't. Does that mean I like all of you? Fuck no. Kev, Spoon, and I all tried the conglomerate thing, it was called NerfOnline. Yeah, it was great and useful, but we're done with that. We stuck it out to the end, we know how it plays out. We're done doing things other peoples' ways. We started NH so we could do this thing on our terms in our own special little way. It has nothing to do with being the biggest, or the best, or the most fucking exclusive. Anyone who wants to can come and post here anytime they please. We don't want to join up with anyone else because it in no way interests us and we don't fucking have to, end of story. If you think we're being greedy than I guess you're just gonna have to deal with that on a deeper spiritual level. In other words, go to hell, I'll keep your seat nice and fucking scolding.

VACC
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#19 ZATZAi

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:03 PM

Yah, I did the No thing too, though only for a short time just before its end...

It just didn't work, and the method Hal used for posting articles to NO was just bad, sorry Hal it was and you knew it...

F-125 could easily implement a Karma system, much of the code to do somthing like that is already written, it would only be a matter of puttin git all together. Which is alot faster and easier than writing it from scratch.

But F-125 will not use a Karma system, at least I have no plans to implement one, the idea doesn't strike me as interesting or useful enough, for my site that is, no offense to NH.
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#20 ZATZAi

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:07 PM

Also, it seems like while its a good idea to have 3 or 4 large nerf sites, having only 1 or 2 is not so grand. Observe how Nerf Online absorbed other Nerf Sites, and Nerf site staffs, essentially turning those sites off, then when NO went off, not onyl were those sites gone that NO took in, but also the content and members NO had brought in went silent for a while.
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#21 Spoon

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:24 PM

Since you're apparantly having a difficult time digesting Vacc and I's argument, let me boil it down for you:

1. We HATE the "Veteran" thing, and wish people would stop trying to make themselves feel more important through Nerf forums.

2. We don't WANT one site. We just question the need for another site, especially when we already have sites that contain active forums, and original content. See 3 for more.

3. We don't think enough people WANT, or COULD provide decent original content to fill a new site up with. Think of exactly how many people really contribute ANYTHING original anymore. I can count them on one hand. I'm not saying I'm any better, but I'm trying to be realistic.

4. We think you people are taking this whole "Nerf Internet Community" thing way too seriously. Here's a thought: There IS NO "Nerf Internet Community". Think about it, all of the popular Nerf sites, it's all the same couple dozen people. The rest just sort of come and go. There is little solidarity, and even less progress. The idea for this site isn't progress, it's simply a different way to present the same information generated by the same couple people. We think all of us should just chill the hell out and enjoy the game.

5. From here it seems that with Nerf Evolution you want to combine the snazzy looks of Nerf Center, the large userbase of Nerf HQ, and the forum-quality and original content of Nerf Haven all into one site. Sure, that'd be nice. But why should the creators of these sites, after all the work they have put into it, want to merge into one large entity that they no longer own and can no longer influence?

If you want to make a new site that will ADD something that CANNOT be found on any other site then great. Thats not what you're going to do, you're just going to give regular forum-goers a chance to post content of their own. Well what do you think happens here, at THIS site? Who do you think writes the articles? Aside from Cxwq (who does 2/3 of the original content for the whole damn community these days), it's YOU people, the forum goers. Sure you're site would make it a bit easier, but you seem to believe that theres a bunch of people just DYING to contribute. Theres not. It's still going to be the same small handful of people writing the same articles about the same subjects. Same shit, different packaging. I just don't find anything really invigorating about your idea. But hey, I might be wrong. I'd love to be PROVED wrong. But you seem to expect us to be excited about the prospect of a new site opening that will suck away visitors to our sites, in order to give them a chance to post content at yours, when they have JUST as much of a chance to do it here, or at NHQ.

If you want to impress us, do something that hasn't been done. We STILL do not have a popular and actively used Nerfer directory, we still do not have a single "hub" where people from all over can meet other nerfers and plan wars. We have a SERIOUS lack of new and interesting mods, especially documented mods. Nobody is doing anything with pictures of video, nobody is writing Nerf fiction (anymore), there is STILL no SINGLE PLACE a new nerfer can go to get up to speed on all of this shit. Nobody seems to really be that INTO NERF, they seem to be MORE into the "Nerf Internet Community" which they pride themselves to be pillars of. Pillars of WHAT? The only thing that goes on in this "community" anymore are off-topic discussions, the same old questions about the same old mods, and a lot of "what do you think is the best gun EVAR????//". About the only thing the NIC is good for anymore is organizing (already regular and prominent) Nerf wars. Watch me do an excited little jig.

I apologize if I sound overly cynical, I just frankly don't see much to be excited about. Wheres the innovation? Wheres the fun? You're site's name is very fitting. Nerf Evolution is just that, a natural "evolution" of the same sites we have now. I just don't think theres enough of a reason and enough of a userbase to fill both, and I'd frankly rather not see Nerf Haven die. We don't need an evolution, we need a revolution if we expect to have a "community" again. I'm busy. I'm lazy. So are a lot of you. And I know that about the only thing that excites me about Nerf anymore are the actual Nerf wars that I go to. Because they're FUN. Because I like the PEOPLE, and because I like to run around and LOOK STUPID. Typing all of this heated prose to a bunch of teenagers about a game that almost everyone else thinks is ridiculous and overall taking this so seriously makes me FEEL STUPID. There's a big difference. I don't LIKE feeling stupid. I'm only doing this in the hopes that I can convince you all of my point of view. If you don't agree you're welcome to argue because hell, that's how progress is made.

You people are going to destroy my wrists....
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#22 Spoon

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:27 PM

Yah, I did the No thing too, though only for a short time just before its end...

It just didn't work, and the method Hal used for posting articles to NO was just bad, sorry Hal it was and you knew it...

F-125 could easily implement a Karma system, much of the code to do somthing like that is already written, it would only be a matter of puttin git all together. Which is alot faster and easier than writing it from scratch.

But F-125 will not use a Karma system, at least I have no plans to implement one, the idea doesn't strike me as interesting or useful enough, for my site that is, no offense to NH.

Blah freaking blah. Admit it Zatzai, you like programming more than you like Nerf. This seems more like a code exercise than a passionate gift to the Nerf community. Do you really think that the only thing holding Nerf Online back from a tidal wave of original content was the POSTING SYSTEM? I can imagine a TON of 14 year olds going "Ya know, I'd love to write this in-depth mod walkthrough, but I tell ya, posting it would just be too much of a PAIN".
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#23 Spoon

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 08:40 PM

AND ANOTHER THING!

Look you guys can kiss my ass and masturbate yourselves for all I care. I tried to get really excited about this community thing for a while, it was called Nerf Online, before that it was the Nerf Listserv, and before that it was a a couple of original sites, like mine. It was nice while it lasted and now it's gone. I wrote a bunch of articles, I administered forums, and I've been doing this shit online for upwards of 8 years now. All I see for progress are a couple of people really trying to put out good content, and everyone else leeching off of them and contributing nothing. I don't visit NHQ, I don't plan to visit NE regardless of how good it turns out to be. , There are exactly THREE reasons why I'm even on Nerf Haven anymore:

1. I like Kevin's mods.

2. I like talking with a handful of the regs.

3. I use it to keep up to date on YANO planning.

That's it. End of story. I wouldn't MIND if some big Nerf sites closed down, I wouldn't MIND seeing the community (whats left of it) decline. Because then we'd have smaller YANOs and to be honest I liked them BETTER smaller. If something came along that MADE MY NERFING EXPERIENCE BETTER, then sure I'd be excited. Nerf isn't online, it's in person, it's with your friends, and IT'S FOR FUN. You guys can fantasize about leading the hungry masses to online Nerf eutopia, but if you'll excuse me, I'll just be enjoying playing the GAME.
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#24 merlinski

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:11 PM

If you want to impress us, do something that hasn't been done. We STILL do not have a popular and actively used Nerfer directory, we still do not have a single "hub" where people from all over can meet other nerfers and plan wars. We have a SERIOUS lack of new and interesting mods, especially documented mods. Nobody is doing anything with pictures of video, nobody is writing Nerf fiction (anymore), there is STILL no SINGLE PLACE a new nerfer can go to get up to speed on all of this shit. Nobody seems to really be that INTO NERF, they seem to be MORE into the "Nerf Internet Community" which they pride themselves to be pillars of. Pillars of WHAT? The only thing that goes on in this "community" anymore are off-topic discussions, the same old questions about the same old mods, and a lot of "what do you think is the best gun EVAR????//". About the only thing the NIC is good for anymore is organizing (already regular and prominent) Nerf wars. Watch me do an excited little jig.

I'd recommend that you not make assumptions about what we do or don't have until you actually see the amount of content that we've already been able to collect. Absolutely no one other than the staff has seen what we've done or knows what we're planning to do.

A lot of what's on your list of "new stuff" is either already present or in the works at NE. We have Nerf fiction, we have new articles, we have a good number of well-documented mods. And we are hoping to get a directory up pretty soon. ZATZAi is trying to integrate it into the forums, and I have something like 90 submissions that I've collected from my site that I can contribute. You keep assuming that this is just another "collaboration" where the people who have been around for a while get together and congratulate themselves on being veterans and leaders of a forum. The focus of this project was on the content, the forums are mostly just a vehicle for that.
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#25 Groove

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 09:12 PM

Wow, these posts are getting longer and longer the longer this thread goes on. Lemme put in my two cents, although I'm sure to many it will mean nothing.

Zero, I see where you are coming from with this "Mecca" site for all things Nerf, however - everyone's mind thinks differently. People are creative beings, they take pride in what they create. I'm proud to be artist. Many o' people that built these communities online for Nerf - I.E. NHQ and NH, those people that created those sites take a certain pride in the way things work at their specific nook in the community. In addition, some people just don't mix with others. Humans are habitually social creatures, as Thoreau once said - They chat and mingle with those who interest them or share opinions and ideas. I don't mean to get all philosophical, but seriously, when you boil it down that's all it is, the habitual social nature in all of us. Think about it for a second, would you really enjoy coming to one site with (1) the same group of people (2) the same content (3) the same forums every day? Sure, it'd be a great way to attract new-comers and perhaps make the "sport" (if that's what you wish to call it) more appealing to the general public, well - that's already been done, it was called, "Nerf: Online." That's like trying to mate a Chimp with a Zebra, and combine it's offspring to mate with a giraffe, which would then be used to mate with a Lobster - Not only would the end-result be scary, would you honestly know what to do with it? 'Nuff said about that.

I'm going to back up Spoon on this one, ZATZAi. I understand that you all are trying to create a substantial contribution to this community, however I still stand in question of why we need another forum, but what will it accomplish in regards to originality? I.E. you can snag all the regular content and slap a finished look to it and call it a site, but that's all it would ever be, just another site. See, the beauty I see in this little community lies in its sites. Each one is somewhat different in content and forums, and the way they are run. Nerf Haven, for example (and IMHO), provides great (and a large portion of the) original content for the community (mods, comics, articles), an awesome set of admins, and a relaxing place to communicate VIA the forums. Essentially its what you see in each site, and what each site has to provide for you. I'll end with this: If you could have 3 Apples or 1 Apple, 1 Orange, and 1 Banana, which would you choose? Point in case being variety. I like it, most people do. Variety is what keeps this little thing we call Nerf from turning into Alduous Huxley's Brave New World. In the words of the loveable Forrest Gump, "...that's all I hafta' say 'bout that."
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"Too close for missiles, I'm switchin' to guns"



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