139 replies to this topic

[Crankymonky]

Quote

After this election, I have had enough of the partisan hackery from both sides. Bush won. If you voted for him, enjoy it. If you didn't, you should find ways to help or put up with him. It's not the end of the world. America is still a democracy, and we still have the same potential for change as we did 4 years ago.

It isn't democracy when speaking out makes you a dissenter...
It isn't democracy when John Ashcroft is in the cabinet...
It may not be democracy for a long time with these upcoming Supreme Court Appointments...


Hillary for 8, then Barack for life...

Edited by crankymonky, 03 November 2004 - 07:40 PM.

[Oroku Saki]

crankymonky, on Nov 3 2004, 07:39 PM, said:

It isn't democracy when speaking out makes you a dissenter...
It isn't democracy when John Ashcroft is in the cabinet...
It may not be democracy for a long time with these upcoming Supreme Court Appointments...

As I have said before, if shit like that keeps up, I am sure someone out there is going to be pissed off enough to start making changes. Besides, Bush is changing some of his cabinet members, so there is at least some hope for the next 4 years. If Bush fucks up in his second term, he is more accountable for his actions. If he is the true christain he claims to be, his conscience will come back to him in the long run.

[Nerfman2222]

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 09:21 PM, said:

If Bush fucks up in his second term, he is more accountable for his actions.

Bush Held Accountable? I mean really what are they gonna do to him. We missed our chance to get him out of office so accually all the people who voted for Bush should be held acountable.

[Oroku Saki]

Nerfman2222, on Nov 3 2004, 08:28 PM, said:

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 09:21 PM, said:

If Bush fucks up in his second term, he is more accountable for his actions.

Bush Held Accountable? I mean really what are they gonna do to him. We missed our chance to get him out of office so accually all the people who voted for Bush should be held acountable.

The main thing that I'm trying to say is that since Bush noticed our nation's support due to the popular vote, he has more reason to live up to his campaign promises, whatever they may be. If I were president seeking re-election, I would be fucking grateful for the citizen's support, and live up to my more positive strengths.

Let's see if the Republican's predictions for a better economy, and stabilization on Iraq hold out in these next 4 years. I doubt that the Republicans would pull off any drastic legislation like the Patriot Act anytime soon unless they had a good reason. At this point, I don't think they can use 9/11 as an excuse anymore, and any future civil rights violations by the government will start to sway even the most hardcore Bush supporter. By the time that comes full circle, I no longer intend to be living here.

Besides, in about 20 years or so, the Baby boomers (who make up a huge majority of conservatives) will be dying off, and the younger generation will take control of our government. The GOP majority isn't going to last forever you know.

[owentheobiwan]

-No use of weapons of mass destruction by Saddam? Blaster, you forget about the gassing of the kurds?

Edited by owentheobiwan, 03 November 2004 - 09:17 PM.

[Fuse]

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 05:47 PM, said:

Let's see if the Republican's predictions for a better economy, and stabilization on Iraq hold out in these next 4 years. I doubt that the Republicans would pull off any drastic legislation like the Patriot Act anytime soon unless they had a good reason. At this point, I don't think they can use 9/11 as an excuse anymore, and any future civil rights violations by the government will start to sway even the most hardcore Bush supporter. By the time that comes full circle, I no longer intend to be living here.

The Republicans are not going to give us a better economy. It is, and will continue to get worse. Bush's policys are shit, and everyone knows it.

In terms of a drastic legislation such as the Patriot Act, I guess you have missed the draft of the Patriot Act II (or The Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003) That Ashcroft sent around in Jan. of 2003. They dont seem too strongly opposed to the idea of finishing locking their mannacles around the American people's civil libertys. And if they do try it, I seriously doubt America would rise up. This election has proven that it most likey wont. Most Americans swallowed Bush's load deep-throat style when he said the Patriot Act was 100% justified and for our own good. Not a single person who voted for it read it front to back as far as Im aware. It was not written well enough, not specific and well defined enough, for something that deals so directly with the libertys of American citizens, and no one cared, because Bush told them not to. If you think that has changed just because Sept. 11th is a few years past I fear you may find yourself sadly mistaken.

[Crankymonky]

Quote

No use of weapons of mass destruction by Saddam? Blaster, you forget about the gassing of the kurds?

Based on a 914 page CIA report (who wrote it, I forget) Saddam had no WMD or means of getting them. He disposed of the WMD's and means of getting them 10 years ago after the Gulf war.

[Fuse]

crankymonky, on Nov 3 2004, 06:27 PM, said:

Quote

No use of weapons of mass destruction by Saddam? Blaster, you forget about the gassing of the kurds?

Based on a 914 page CIA report (who wrote it, I forget) Saddam had no WMD or means of getting them. He disposed of the WMD's and means of getting them 10 years ago after the Gulf war.

You are thinking of the Duelfer(sp?) report I believe. The report Bush himself said would be the final word on the issue.

[AirApache]

Drop this argument. It's pointless; it's not Bush's fault that the CIA and the intelligence departments of UK, Poland, Russia, and Germany all seemed to point at Hussein having WMDs.

My view on Bush: If half of America (the population that doesn't vote doesn't matter; if you don't care to the point where you don't vote, you don't count) believes Bush not to be qualified to be President, what makes him unqualified? I personally believe that he IS qualified, but not as much as people would like to think. However, (I am having an argument with someone about this..sadly enough) I need to know why the American public feels that Bush is not worthy of office.

Keep in mind that nearly HALF of America disagreed with his being elected....why?

Umm...you can't say that Bush's policies are just going to get worse, by the way. There is NO way of knowing this. The same thing can be said of Sen. John Kerry. He makes promises, but there is NO way of knowing whether he will or won't do what he says. Saying that Bush was a mistake based on what he WILL do isn't as strong as why he isn't qualified based on what he DID do (that was wrong). No president will just make a policy that will send America to doom. They don't have that much power. Don't make unfounded accusations.

[Crankymonky]

Ya Fuse, that was it, Charles Deulfer's Report. http://www.cia.gov/c.../iraq_wmd_2004/
Just the "key findings"
The CIA website will have the whole thing "shortly"

And, AA.
On the news (forgot which), they were interviewing people and asking reasons for their voting. It was quite sad the responses, "he isn't Bush".
Also, I went through a bunch of my election 2000 report articles. Wow, and Bush made those "promises"...

AA, an entire Cabinet/House/Senate/Rest of Executive branch can send us to doom. They already did, now we just have 4 more years of it. Then 40 years of cleaning up.
I think about...one...held true.

Edited by crankymonky, 03 November 2004 - 10:17 PM.

[The Infinite Shindig]

Since more than one person here mentioned packing their bags for Canada, I thought I'd share a link I read on Fark with all of you.

http://edition.cnn.c...reut/index.html

I think packing your bags and moving out to just get away (from Bush, a *not so potential at the moment* draft, or both) you got another thing coming. Part of being American is working for change. Sit down; take the loss like a man and plan to do something about it. How about some civic participation people?

Write you Senator or Representative in the House about how you feel about a particular issue. Find a political candidate that you like and volunteer to work for their campaign for 2008. How about knocking on doors and talking to friends and neighbors? Even getting every friend you have to vote in the next election is important. Though that's not an immediate step, it's something you can do. If you want to make a statement to the President, work for a loss of seats for the Republicans in the House and Senate in 2006. That's the most immediate step you can take.

Bush can pretty much do whatever he wants for a few reasons. He does not stand for re-election; Cheney won't run in 2008. The Senate has (I'm pretty sure) a ten seat advantage for the Republicans and the House has a 30 seat led. Those are signfiicant enough that they don't really have to listen to the Democrats. Hell, five more senate seats and they can block a filibuster.

Yes, I voted so don't give me that crap where I really don't have a say in the matter. The turnout for my age group was terrible; I dread to think how much the organizations spent on each vote they actually got.

Edited by The Infinite Shindig, 03 November 2004 - 10:17 PM.

[Crankymonky]

I believe it is a 6-8 Senate seat lead. At least, that is what I picked up from the Post and Government class today.

[Oroku Saki]

>Fuse<, on Nov 3 2004, 09:27 PM, said:

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 05:47 PM, said:

Let's see if the Republican's predictions for a better economy, and stabilization on Iraq hold out in these next 4 years. I doubt that the Republicans would pull off any drastic legislation like the Patriot Act anytime soon unless they had a good reason. At this point, I don't think they can use 9/11 as an excuse anymore, and any future civil rights violations by the government will start to sway even the most hardcore Bush supporter. By the time that comes full circle, I no longer intend to be living here.

The Republicans are not going to give us a better economy. It is, and will continue to get worse. Bush's policys are shit, and everyone knows it.

In terms of a drastic legislation such as the Patriot Act, I guess you have missed the draft of the Patriot Act II (or The Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003) That Ashcroft sent around in Jan. of 2003. They dont seem too strongly opposed to the idea of finishing locking their mannacles around the American people's civil libertys. And if they do try it, I seriously doubt America would rise up. This election has proven that it most likey wont. Most Americans swallowed Bush's load deep-throat style when he said the Patriot Act was 100% justified and for our own good. Not a single person who voted for it read it front to back as far as Im aware. It was not written well enough, not specific and well defined enough, for something that deals so directly with the libertys of American citizens, and no one cared, because Bush told them not to. If you think that has changed just because Sept. 11th is a few years past I fear you may find yourself sadly mistaken.

If you think we're completely fucked, there is always the option of moving to another country. Bush is here whether we like it or not. I am not a big fan of him and his administration, but I am at least trying to look at the positive side of things, and find ways to take care of the negative.

Economy-wise, I have learned that the reason why there is a huge gap between the rich and poor is the fact that the poor do a bad job at managing and utilising the resources available to them. On top of that, the average citizen has become too reliant upon others for their well-being (i.e., a paycheck from their employer) America is still the land of opportunity, it's just that many people don't know where to look. I was raised in a family that learned to be self-reliant. If people don't learn to adapt to the economy climate, they are going to have serious problems, and I don't think that the government is going to do much about it.

After careful thought and discussion wih my friends, I have personally decided to do what I can to make this country better, regardless of who's in office. If things get to a certain point where the US's democracy turns into a fascist christain nation, and I have done everything I can to prevent that, I am going to figure, "Fuck this shit." and move to another country. There are many great countries in the world out there, and I am not afraid to open my mind to new ideas and options. Although the move to Canada seems tempting right now, I am going to at least do my best to make this country the best it can be.

[AirApache]

Cranky, the President can't send America to doom because
1) Your suggesting that he and half of America don't know what they're talking about
2) There's a reason why there are two other parts to our government...so that the President can't have too much power.

Yeah...I realize that Bush didn't fulfill most of his promises. But if I were to use that argument the response is:

Think about 9/11. That MIGHT have, you know, changed the focus of things a little bit. I'm sure that if your house was burned, your family killed, and such, you would change the focus of your life...maybe slightly? Like making sure something like this doesn't happen again?

I've tried that argument before...doesn't work.

[Famine]

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 07:17 PM, said:

Isn't that (2012) when the supposed "end of the world" is supposed to happen, according to the Incan and Egyptian calendars? Just kidding.

Just wanted to chime in on that. 2012 isn't supposed to be the end of the world, it's the end of time. Rather, the idea is that as the world changes at a faster and faster rate Dec. 21st, 2012 marks the point when the rate of acceleration begins to reach towards an infinite point. If the Mayans were right, that date should mark some sort of event that will catapult society into a perpetual state of change and advancement. Think spaceships, wireless internet, nanites, and a 17 year old anarchist from London named Jack who's being hailed as the next buddha all rolled into one.

Until then I'll be suffering from a general malaise of the spirit for the next four years.


5 points to the first one to name the Anarchist reference.

[Lemmypoo]

Well I have a few recomendations for Bush that doesn't envolve "rolling the Constitution up, stick it up your bum, and light up because you're gonna smoke that fucker through your ass."

1. FIX THE FUCKING TAXES MOTHER FUCKER! I mean the rich are pretty rich. However, the stock market is starting to pick up, and that is at least a signal something good could happen.

2. Oh for the sake of all of us, quit dicking around in the middle east. Osama just got through telling us that he'd do it again if we didn't lay off. If you want him, fine, send in some Rangers, no Afghan warlords, and fucking find him. That is if he was the actual mastermind, he funded it, but somebody else more than likely was the guiding hand that made it happen.

3. Stuff anymore conservative Supreme Court Justices in and I will necessitate two abortions in the Whitehouse-- if you know what I mean.

4. Learn to talk. Handicapped-ass mother fucker.

5. Kick Cheney and Rumsfeld out, and I mean out the window, make them do a face plant and either die of a heart attack or die of being the biggest asshole in Washington.

Five easy to follow suggestions, if he does more than three of them, I will be very pleased and could support him. Even if he is a Facist.

By the way, look what I found! http://www.foreignlegionlife.com/ Somebody wrote a book, on the French Foreign Legion, I am considering buying it. Why? Well Chirac hates Bush, so I get a Famas, a bad-ass hat, bunch of booze, and the French girlies to boot! That's assuming they don't throw my ass out somewhere...

Now all I need to do is learn to parles en francais! And figure out how to do accents on letters.

[Fuse]

AA, in terms of the reports, we have already had the discussion where I proved you wrong on that. Id be happy to link to the facts again for you, if you'd like. I'm sick of you shooting down anything liberal posted here with no facts to back your statements.

Quote

If you think we're completely fucked, there is always the option of moving to another country. Bush is here whether we like it or not. I am not a big fan of him and his administration, but I am at least trying to look at the positive side of things, and find ways to take care of the negative.

Yeah, I have said that I agree we have to make the best of what we've got. There is no campaigning against Bush at this point, hes got his second term, and he is our president. That however does not change the fact that when it comes to economic policy Bush has no idea what hes doing, and his own advisors have said so.

Besides, even if I wanted to move to Canada (Which I dont and have not seriously suggested to anyone, so I dont want anyone yelling at me to pack up and ship out), not everyone can just pack up and leave. I have a college education, a serious girlfriend, my friends, and my family. Even if I wanted to I couldnt just pack up my nerf guns and computer, grab my petty $5k savings, and move. Im sick of people saying that like it is a perfectly reasonable response to anyone who complains about our president.

Quote

There's a reason why there are two other parts to our government...so that the President can't have too much power.

The GOP controls the government now, and is predicting they will be the majority party for 25 years (likely not realistic). The system of checks and balances does not work well when one party controls the house, senate, and presidency. It never has, Dem or Repub.

[Groove]

ItalionStallion, on Nov 3 2004, 06:50 PM, said:

This was brought to my attention and i feel has a direct relation to the people on this board.

-The young crowd(18-24) did not vote. Apparentley 1 out of 10 of them voted for Kerry. Basically, if more young people voted, then maybe things would have been different.

I dont know, i just thought that was a pretty cool statistic that applied to alot of us..


BTW I heared Hillary Clinton is running in 08, all i can say is if you vote for her then you should be shot..=

I definitely voted. And I definitely fall in that category...

This was my first election, and it was very interesting to see how everyone reacted. I go to an art school in a very urban environment, so I felt very out of place during election time. Sort of like, a dude with no arms in a Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots tournament kind of out of place.

I was going to challenge some of your points Blaster, but I like what Cx is getting at...this thread has been interesting thus far and very fun to read.

[Blaster]

cxwq, on Nov 3 2004, 03:18 PM, said:

I'd like to challenge the anti-Bush crowd here to avoid the laundry lists of problems from the last 4 years and focus this thread on what we can do, in your opinions, to fix the system.

Ok I've got a few suggestions.
-We could begin by pulling the troops out of Iraq, first and foremost. Since Iraq is planning to have a Civil War in roughly a year, we should probably pull out and leave the country to solve its own problems.
-Focus the forces more on where they need to be focused, Afghanistan. Bin Laden should be the first priority, since he was the one responsible for 9/11
-I'm not saying we should have gone after Kim Jong. Negotiations are probably the best way to deal with these things. I was just challenging the fact that Bush went after one guy for one thing and negotiated with another for the exact same thing.
-I'm not entirely sure on how the debt from the war can be fixed. My guess is that future generations will be paying for it.

So that's just a few of my opinions on how a few things could be fixed.

[Oroku Saki]

I agree that it's not easy to just pack up and leave, but it may not be a bad idea to be prepared just in case. I'm getting prepared, and I would probably be doing the same thing if Kerry were elected. If the situation were to warrant itself, I would have a hard time packing up right away too. I have two jobs, a house, many friends and family, a girlfriend who has been with me for about three years, and a whole shitload of other attachments. In my preparations, I am trying to find ways to convince the people closest to me to move with me if the situation in our country warrants it. Of course, this is all just in case something does happen.

Lemmypoo, Bush has already been planning changes to his cabinet, and I think Rumsfeld may be on the chopping block, as well as Rice and Powell, so I guess you could check #5 off your list, at least partially. Cheney is there to stay, but it will be nice to see some new faces in the White House for a change.

[Pineapple]

Lemmypoo, on Nov 4 2004, 04:07 AM, said:

Well I have a few recomendations for Bush....

5.  Kick Cheney and Rumsfeld out, and I mean out the window, make them do a face plant and either die of a heart attack or die of being the biggest asshole in Washington.

Well heck, something that Lemmy and I both agree on. Finally.

But France? Dude, those women don't shave. Ewww.

(Sorry, just wanted to lighten up the mood. Damn, guys, don't move! Stick it out, you'll survive. Really. I survived Reagan.)

-Piney-

[Oroku Saki]

Pineapple, on Nov 4 2004, 12:48 AM, said:

But France? Dude, those women don't shave. Ewww.

(Sorry, just wanted to lighten up the mood. Damn, guys, don't move! Stick it out, you'll survive. Really. I survived Reagan.)

-Piney-

I also heard that they rarely shower or take baths. They just douse themselves in perfume and call it good. If I were you, Lemmy, I would go for a German or Canadian. One of my friends went to Germany, and he said that there's some pretty hot girls there *wink wink*.

Come to think of it, I was born during the Reagan Presidency. Until after the 2000 election, I never really paid much attention to politics as I was too young to vote anyways. During the last few years, I got around to reading up on the events I have been fuzzy about during gradeschool, so I feel more up to speed.

Who knows, maybe Cheney will have another 20 heart attacks within the next few months, then he can finally drop dead. When Bush first got elected, I am starting to feel that Cheney's heart attacks within the first few months were a sign from God.

Also, getting back to the Supreme Court Justice issue, I think it was Julie that mentioned a while back that Laura, as well as Barbara Bush are Pro-Choice. If Bush wants to pull off overturning Roe V Wade, he has his wife (as well as his momma) to answer to.

Edit: I just found that Ashcroft may actually resign from his position as attorney general! WOOT!
http://www.usnews.co...46466_brief.php

After looking around on Fark, I found the link from the Drudge Report.

Damn, I'm liking this new administration so far.

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 04 November 2004 - 01:49 AM.

[Inferno]

Oroku_Saki, on Nov 3 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

For these election results, I am going with Cx's argument that our country is starting to combine church and state, which shouldn't even be happening to begin with.

The draft rumors may not sway me away from America, but having the country turning into a complete pseudo-Christain state will convince me to move to Canada. At least some people vote based on logic rather than religous beliefs which may or may not be right.

Damn this discussion has grown since I read it yesterday night.

Oruku_Saki, how is our country starting to combine church and state? Could you provide some examples on what you mean? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[Lemmypoo]

Ugh, I think Reagan caused me some birth defects.

Well Rumsfeld getting the ax is definitely good, but Rice and Powell are about the only two folks I like in Dubya's cabinet. Granted, both are puppets, but they are nice puppets.

Oh! I meant the move to France and join the French Foreign Legion thing tongue-in-cheek. Sarcastically! Fasticiously! (Fast... fac..... the Fast and the Furious!) I'd move to Russia anyway, not only are they easily impressed with crappy music, possibly the hottest loose women in the world! Germany somewhere in the top ten, but considering Russia exports hot women, vodka, and uhhhh I'm thinking maybe snow, lots of snow.

Anyway, I missed Oktoberfest.... again. No weiner. No pint. No hot Germans. Siddhartha was right, life is suffering.

[Fuse]

Im sad to hear Powell is going. It was nice to have someone willing to question the President in his decisions, even if Dubya just told him to hush.