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Stryfe motors for IMR's?


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#26 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 12:02 PM

I was planning on an artifact canted flywheel cage/concave flywheels.
Will the artifact flywheels slow the motors and in turn slow the darts down?
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#27 Meaker VI

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 02:07 PM

I was planning on an artifact canted flywheel cage/concave flywheels.
Will the artifact flywheels slow the motors and in turn slow the darts down?


If they're heavier than stock, yes they will. But that may not matter or the amount may be minuscule.

Why are you putting all this expensive hardware into a stock-motor blaster?
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#28 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

From what I've gathered, stock motors are my only motor option that doesn't require lipo, which I do not want to do

If there are better motors that won't overdraw, or ask for more amps than 14500 Imr batteries can safely deliver, I would love them
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#29 dangman4ever

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:54 PM

I was planning on an artifact canted flywheel cage/concave flywheels.
Will the artifact flywheels slow the motors and in turn slow the darts down?

 

Yes but not by a large margin.

 

Just a FYI, you won't be getting the full benefits of an Artifact wheel and cage with stock motors. If you're going to stick with IMRs, just upgrade the flywheels, wiring, and call it a day. The cage is just not worth it IMO for stock motors. 


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#30 NerfGeek416

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 04:05 PM

From what I've gathered, stock motors are my only motor option that doesn't require lipo, which I do not want to do

 

This isn't quite true. Buy a 12V NIMH pack (AA size cells should be sufficient), and use rhinos with Artifact or Hooligan wheels in a 43mm OFP cage. That would be my pick for best setuo that does not require lipo. NIMH is extremely safe, and hard to damage.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I designed the OFP cages. But Artifact would also provide good performance. 


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#31 shandsgator8

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:35 PM

 

This isn't quite true. Buy a 12V NIMH pack (AA size cells should be sufficient), and use rhinos with Artifact or Hooligan wheels in a 43mm OFP cage. That would be my pick for best setuo that does not require lipo. NIMH is extremely safe, and hard to damage.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I designed the OFP cages. But Artifact would also provide good performance. 

 

I'd like to clarify a few things.

 

First, a 12v NiMH pack (which would be 10 cells) is too much voltage for the MTB Rhinos. In my Stryfe setup, I run only 6 AA NiMH cells with MTB Rhinos and the stock FWC. The FPS will very likely be too high and cause darts to shoot wildly in a 12v NiMH setup. This is my experience with Gen 3 Koosh and stock Elite darts. Perhaps your darts can handle the high FPS, but that would be news to me. Also, perhaps these third party FWC can keep Gen 3 Koosh and other darts reasonably accurate at a high FPS. If so, I'm curious to learn more about them. Maybe a video showing their performance?

 

Second, AA size cells are sufficient, if they are high quality cells. Make sure the cells are low resistance and can handle high current draws. If the AA battery pack is designed for a low drain application like a transmitter battery pack, it's not going to performance very well (or as well as it could) with MTB Rhinos.

 

Compared to LiPo cells, it's true that NiMH cells are extremely safe and hard to damage, but that doesn't mean they're indestructible. You still need to charge them at reasonable rates (1-2C max for AA cells; ideally at 0.5 to 1C; they can't handle high charge rates very well, even the best AA NiMH cells out there).


Edited by shandsgator8, 07 June 2017 - 10:45 AM.

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#32 Meaker VI

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:08 PM

 
I'd like to clarify a few things.
 
First, a 12v NiMH pack (which would be 10 cells) is too much voltage for the MTB Rhinos

What. My 3s "12v" (when charged, ~14.7v) lipo pack on MTB Rhinos disagrees.

 

Edit:

 

The FPS will very likely be too high and cause darts to shoot wildly in a 12v NiMH setup. This is my experience with Gen 3 Koosh and stock Elite darts

 

The FPS should be less than that of a Lipo pack on 12v, so the accuracy problem is either common to all blasters using darts at some range greater than stock (not untrue!) or your setup is wobbly.


Edited by Meaker VI, 06 June 2017 - 09:22 PM.

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#33 shandsgator8

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 05:27 AM

Meaker:

 

With a stock FWC in a Stryfe, with MTB Rhinos, using 8.4v+ NiMH packs and Gen 3 Koosh darts produced very inaccurate darts (from my perspective). From my research online about a year ago, turns out this is normal. The higher FPS produced higher ranges, but significantly less precision, i.e. consistency with the darts. But if I used a 7.2v (6 cell) NiMH setup, the precision/consistency was noticeably better, and range (FPS) was only slightly reduced.

 

My point is everyone thinks higher FPS is better, but in practice that's rarely the case, because in order to get the higher FPS and range, accuracy/precision must be sacrificed.


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#34 Meaker VI

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:37 AM

Meaker:
 
With a stock FWC in a Stryfe, with MTB Rhinos, using 8.4v+ NiMH packs and Gen 3 Koosh darts produced very inaccurate darts (from my perspective). From my research online about a year ago, turns out this is normal. The higher FPS produced higher ranges, but significantly less precision, i.e. consistency with the darts. But if I used a 7.2v (6 cell) NiMH setup, the precision/consistency was noticeably better, and range (FPS) was only slightly reduced.
 
My point is everyone thinks higher FPS is better, but in practice that's rarely the case, because in order to get the higher FPS and range, accuracy/precision must be sacrificed.

I find this suspect. Nerf darts have never been great for accuracy, and it's possible that what you're seeing is a dart going wider because of the greater range.

Again, my rhino'd 3s lipo'd otherwise stock stryfe (strayvan) disagrees. In practice against other stock and lightly modded opponents and opponents using stock motors, my blaster was outperforming the opposition in every way, including accuracy over distance.

Also, running the motors on less current than they are designed for seems to stem from a misunderstanding of how they actually are supposed to work. At the proper current, they spin at "supercritical" RPM's - fast enough that shots in rapid succession don't diminish FPS for each dart because the wheels are spinning so fast that the energy they carry can't all be transferred at once. Giving them less current doesn't nessecarily decrease FPS for the first shot or two, but can decrease consistency when fired in rapid succession and should increase spinup time which also leads to inconsistency.

If you want to run a 2s solution (~6-9v), use 2s motors like squiggles or the new Mishel (sp?) motors. They're designed to run supercritical on a 2s source.

Ed: OP, Here is a good discussion on the whole topic by people who know it really well.

IMRs are a kind of stop-gap mod- they allow you to use the stock battery tray, kind-of require a desire, but can't be pushed much further than that. If you want a performance blaster, you need a performance hobby pack. It doesn't need to be Lipo if you're afraid of them for whatever reason (fair enough, I don't keep my pack in my house), but it does need to be higher end than IMRs.

Edited by Meaker VI, 07 June 2017 - 10:51 AM.

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#35 shandsgator8

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:40 AM

I find this suspect. Nerf darts have never been great for accuracy, and it's possible that what you're seeing is a dart going wider because of the greater range.

Again, my rhino'd 3s lipo'd otherwise stock stryfe (strayvan) disagrees. In practice against other stock and lightly modded opponents and opponents using stock motors, my blaster was outperforming the opposition in every way, including accuracy over distance.

Also, running the motors on less current than they are designed for seems to stem from a misunderstanding of how they actually are supposed to work. At the proper current, they spin at "supercritical" RPM's - fast enough that shots in rapid succession don't diminish FPS for each dart because the wheels are spinning so fast that the energy they carry can't all be transferred at once. Giving them less current doesn't nessecarily decrease FPS for the first shot or two, but can decrease consistency when fired in rapid succession and should increase spinup time which also leads to inconsistency.

If you want to run a 2s solution (~6-9v), use 2s motors like squiggles or the new Mishel (sp?) motors. They're designed to run supercritical on a 2s source.

 

Find it suspect all you want. Based on my observations and anecdotal evidence from others, there's is a correlation between higher RPMs and more inaccurate shooting. This is not a perfect correlation because not everyone uses the same equipment and darts, whether it's stock, Gen 3 Kooshes (that's what I use), waffle, FVJ or w/e.

 

Additionally, there will be variability in manufacturing of the stock FWC and motors (or most other motors for that matter). You mentioned comparing your set up to other people's set up. That's an apples and oranges comparison. What you need to do is compare your current set up (with a 3s LiPo battery) to a 2s LiPo battery. My hypothesis is that your accuracy/consistency will improve. How much, I can't say and even if there is a difference, the loss in FPS and range may not be worth the increase in  accuracy. 

 

The bottom line is that you can't assume that just because you increase your cell count, you'll get higher FPS and ranges while maintaining accuracy/consistency. Some people may be able to, but a large number of people won't be able to.


Edited by shandsgator8, 07 June 2017 - 10:44 AM.

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#36 Meaker VI

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:22 AM

Find it suspect all you want. Based on my observations and anecdotal evidence from others, there's is a correlation between higher RPMs and more inaccurate shooting. This is not a perfect correlation because not everyone uses the same equipment and darts, whether it's stock, Gen 3 Kooshes (that's what I use), waffle, FVJ or w/e.
 
Additionally, there will be variability in manufacturing of the stock FWC and motors (or most other motors for that matter). You mentioned comparing your set up to other people's set up. That's an apples and oranges comparison. What you need to do is compare your current set up (with a 3s LiPo battery) to a 2s LiPo battery. My hypothesis is that your accuracy/consistency will improve. How much, I can't say and even if there is a difference, the loss in FPS and range may not be worth the increase in  accuracy


More discussion from leaders in the field, including the guy who designed Rhinos. There's someone in there arguing for 2s Rhinos, but anecdotally. No one bothers to shoot the accuracy part of his posts down because he hasn't prooven it and his anecdote doesn't play well with the math. Until I see someone recommend Rhinos on 2s with real testing to back themselves up, I'll stick to my 3s setup and use the motors as-intended.

However, darts play a HUGE role in how accurate your setup is/isn't. It is very possible that the darts that are being used with these setups are unstable after ~110 FPS and so reducing the RPMs keeps them more consistent by keeping the FPS down. It's also possible that their acceleration all happens in a manner different than most darts and the super-critical RPM value is actually lower because of it. What that tells me is that you need different darts. I use USCs, Elites, and FVJs with the occasional Waffle thrown in and not Koosh, so maybe I'm not noticing issues I would if I were.
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#37 shandsgator8

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:57 AM

More discussion from leaders in the field, including the guy who designed Rhinos. There's someone in there arguing for 2s Rhinos, but anecdotally. No one bothers to shoot the accuracy part of his posts down because he hasn't prooven it and his anecdote doesn't play well with the math. Until I see someone recommend Rhinos on 2s with real testing to back themselves up, I'll stick to my 3s setup and use the motors as-intended.

However, darts play a HUGE role in how accurate your setup is/isn't. It is very possible that the darts that are being used with these setups are unstable after ~110 FPS and so reducing the RPMs keeps them more consistent by keeping the FPS down. It's also possible that their acceleration all happens in a manner different than most darts and the super-critical RPM value is actually lower because of it. What that tells me is that you need different darts. I use USCs, Elites, and FVJs with the occasional Waffle thrown in and not Koosh, so maybe I'm not noticing issues I would if I were.

 

You may have hit the nail on the head with that bolded statement. I know that with Gen 3 Koosh darts and MTB Rhinos, I get significantly better accuracy/consistency with my groupings on a 6 cell AA NiMH setup than an 8 cell AA setup. The biggest reason why may be the darts. But at the time I built my superstock setup with the Stryfe, waffle darts didn't exist or weren't well known in the Nerf/NIC community. As for FVJs, since they're not allowed in many games/wars, I never considered their use.


Edited by shandsgator8, 07 June 2017 - 11:59 AM.

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#38 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 12:37 PM

I would consider a AA nimh pack if possible. I was thinking possibly 2x2x2 8 cell aa nimh pack should fit in the stock battery tray with an expanded battery door. I hope.

Should be 9.6v I believe (or would you suggest a 7.2 volt 6 cell aa pack for some reason?)but what other specs should I be looking for? Which brand 8 aa nimh pack should I be looking for? Which battery connector would you all suggest? I already have an nimh charger (with I think its called tamiya connector) for my 7.2v 6 c cell nimh rc car packs. I'm not sure if it would work for a 9.6v aa nimh pack though...

Aside from the correct aa nimh pack, which motors would you all suggest to go with said correct nimh pack?

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#39 Meaker VI

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 02:20 PM

I would consider a AA nimh pack if possible. I was thinking possibly 2x2x2 8 cell aa nimh pack should fit in the stock battery tray with an expanded battery door. I hope.

Should be 9.6v I believe (or would you suggest a 7.2 volt 6 cell aa pack for some reason?)but what other specs should I be looking for? Which brand 8 aa nimh pack should I be looking for? Which battery connector would you all suggest? I already have an nimh charger (with I think its called tamiya connector) for my 7.2v 6 c cell nimh rc car packs. I'm not sure if it would work for a 9.6v aa nimh pack though...

Aside from the correct aa nimh pack, which motors would you all suggest to go with said correct nimh pack?


Size your motors to your pack; 3s motors for 3s (~11-15v) pack and 2s for 2s (~6-8v)
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#40 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 03:45 PM

Size your motors to your pack; 3s motors for 3s (~11-15v) pack and 2s for 2s (~6-8v)


I don't know where 9.6v falls into :( lol

Would you all suggest 9.6 or 7.2 volt aa nimh? I'm leaning more towards 9.6v.

Which brand aa nimh pack would you all suggest? And what's a reputable place to buy them from? I don't want a cheap knockoff crappy pack with sleeves that make them look like a legit pack. Which battery connector would you all suggest?

What specs should I be looking for besides voltage? As high of mah as possible? What about discharge rate? C rating etc?

For my rc cars I just bought some 6 c cell 7.2 volt nimh packs and charger from my local radioshack, which is no longer around. The charger has I think tamiya connectors. Will that charger work with 9.6v aa nimh packs? If not, which charger would you suggest?
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#41 Meaker VI

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 04:52 PM

I don't know where 9.6v falls into :(

I *think* that's still 2s territory. Each "s" is about 4v, but I know I've checked my 3s pack at 14+ before.

If you've got RC packs, check that their discharge capacity is within the motors draw, you might be able to just use those. I'd switch the tamiya plugs for xt60s or something though.

Beyond that, the questions you're asking are beyond my experience

You may have hit the nail on the head with that bolded statement. I know that with Gen 3 Koosh darts and MTB Rhinos, I get significantly better accuracy/consistency with my groupings on a 6 cell AA NiMH setup than an 8 cell AA setup. The biggest reason why may be the darts.


The biggest accuracy issue is *always* the darts. Koosh may be a tad lighter too, which wouldn't help long-range accuracy or stability. Hmm... didn't Coop do a video comparing darts recently?

Edited by Meaker VI, 07 June 2017 - 04:56 PM.

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#42 Bubba Longshot

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 05:41 PM

Yes, 9.6volts will be in the 2s range.
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#43 shandsgator8

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:06 PM

I would consider a AA nimh pack if possible. I was thinking possibly 2x2x2 8 cell aa nimh pack should fit in the stock battery tray with an expanded battery door. I hope.

Should be 9.6v I believe (or would you suggest a 7.2 volt 6 cell aa pack for some reason?)but what other specs should I be looking for? Which brand 8 aa nimh pack should I be looking for? Which battery connector would you all suggest? I already have an nimh charger (with I think its called tamiya connector) for my 7.2v 6 c cell nimh rc car packs. I'm not sure if it would work for a 9.6v aa nimh pack though...

Aside from the correct aa nimh pack, which motors would you all suggest to go with said correct nimh pack?

 

That battery pack you pictured (2x2x2) should fit in a stock Stryfe battery tray. Whether an expanded door will also fit that battery pack, I don't know.

 

I would suggest a 6 cell AA NiMH pack,  but that's my experience and if you read the exchange between Meaker VI and I in this thread, you'll see that an 8 cell pack might be better, depending on the darts you're using. You may just have to experiment and see for yourself. That's what I ended up doing: directly comparing a 6 cell and 8 cell Eneloop AA NiMH pack.


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#44 NerfGeek416

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:41 PM

Stock FWC and wheels are notoriously inconsistent. Gen 3 Koosh are a known good dart, and commonly used in setups up to 150FPS. I suspect the inaccuracies shandsgator is struggling with are a result of misaligned or unbalanced stock wheels.

 

I would recommend using a 3S motor and 12V nimh pack. A 2S motor naturally requires more current to produce the same power (P = IV). Since NIMH can struggle under high current loads, I would use 12V and rhino as suggested earlier. Rhinos were designed as a 12V motor, and should not be run subcritical (less than 12V). I would house the NIMH pack in a stock.

 

If you want a new cage, I'd humbly recommend the OpenFlywheelProject's (designed by me) low crush stryfe cage (either 43 or 43.8mm). You can print it yourself or purchase from Hooligan or Ahalekelly.com (shardbearer on NH). It includes a feed guide that helps prevent jams. If you can, swap in modulus or demolisher wheels, they are made to better tolerances. Even better, buy a set of Artifact or Hooligan.


Edited by NerfGeek416, 08 June 2017 - 12:31 PM.

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#45 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 11:48 AM

My rc car nimh packs are 6 c sized cells and way to big for my stryfe.

8 aa nimh pack is as big as I would want to go, as anything bigger wouldn't fit stryfe battery tray with larger door.

Will my charger (that came with my 6 c sized cell 7.2volt nimh rc packs) work for an 8 aa cell 9.6volt nimh pack, or would I need a charger specifically for 9.6v 8 aa nimh pack?

I could really use some suggestions for the "best" 8 aa cell nimh pack. I don't want cheap knockoff pack with stickers or sleeves thatt make it look like a legit pack.

Also could really use some suggestions on ratings/specs other than voltage that would make a 9.6volt 8 aa pack perform well in a stryfe.
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#46 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:18 PM

Seems like all the 8 aa "square" 2x2x2 nimh packs are listed as transmittor battery. Is that what I want to avoid? I'm not tooo on top of electrical theory which is why I need help picking mah and discharge ratings etc
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#47 shandsgator8

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 06:30 PM

Seems like all the 8 aa "square" 2x2x2 nimh packs are listed as transmittor battery. Is that what I want to avoid? I'm not tooo on top of electrical theory which is why I need help picking mah and discharge ratings etc

 

Yes it is, assuming they make it with thin gauge wire and a R/C radio connector attached to it. If you want a 2x2x2 pack to be as efficient as possible, you'll need to make it yourself or find a battery supplier to make one for you using the proper gauge wire and connector of your choice. I think cheapbatterypacks.com still offers this service. EDIT:  I see that they're no longer in business. http://www.hangtimes.com/txpacks.htmlseems to be a decent place from what I hear. Their "cassette" Eneloop packs would work for you, although you'd need to do some soldering on your own and you need to be very careful handling a pack that powerful with bare metal contacts everywhere; it's really easy to short out the pack if you're not careful (trust me from experience).


My rc car nimh packs are 6 c sized cells and way to big for my stryfe.

8 aa nimh pack is as big as I would want to go, as anything bigger wouldn't fit stryfe battery tray with larger door.

Will my charger (that came with my 6 c sized cell 7.2volt nimh rc packs) work for an 8 aa cell 9.6volt nimh pack, or would I need a charger specifically for 9.6v 8 aa nimh pack?

I could really use some suggestions for the "best" 8 aa cell nimh pack. I don't want cheap knockoff pack with stickers or sleeves thatt make it look like a legit pack.

Also could really use some suggestions on ratings/specs other than voltage that would make a 9.6volt 8 aa pack perform well in a stryfe.

 

Depends on the charger. How many cells can it handle? Nicer chargers can handle a wide range of cells (and voltages).

 

As for cells, Eneloops are great. They have the added advantage of being low self-discharge, too.


Edited by shandsgator8, 08 June 2017 - 06:36 PM.

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#48 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 11:00 AM

Is it the thin wiring that makes a "transmittor" pack not so good, or the cells used in the pack? Could I just desolder them an solder on a differnt connector with thicker gauge wiring?

I plan to, and am capable of, rewiring the whole blaster, I'm just not on top of electrical theory. I don't really know much about any of the specs like discharge c rating etc, just volts.... which is why I need help picking a high quality "square" 2x2x2 8aa nimh pack that will perform well, and a charger that works with said pack. I'm not sure what my nimh charger can handle, it just came with 2 nimh rc car packs I bought from radioshack. I'm guessing it only works with the 7.2v nimh packs it came with and id need a new charger for this.

Would eneloop pro aa cells be better than "regular" eneloop aa cells?
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#49 shandsgator8

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 12:40 PM

Is it the thin wiring that makes a "transmittor" pack not so good, or the cells used in the pack? Could I just desolder them an solder on a differnt connector with thicker gauge wiring?

I plan to, and am capable of, rewiring the whole blaster, I'm just not on top of electrical theory. I don't really know much about any of the specs like discharge c rating etc, just volts.... which is why I need help picking a high quality "square" 2x2x2 8aa nimh pack that will perform well, and a charger that works with said pack. I'm not sure what my nimh charger can handle, it just came with 2 nimh rc car packs I bought from radioshack. I'm guessing it only works with the 7.2v nimh packs it came with and id need a new charger for this.

Would eneloop pro aa cells be better than "regular" eneloop aa cells?

 

If it's from Radio Shack, I'd get a different charger.

 

In our application (Nerf) Pro (black) AA Eneloop cells aren't better than regular, because they have higher internal resistance than regular (White). Yes, they have higher capacity, but 2,000mah of capacity is more than enough for a solid day's worth of Nerfing with a Stryfe, so the extra 500mah or so isn't worth the drop in power due to higher internal resistance of the cells.

 

As for the Tx packs only flaw being the thin wire, I presume that's true, but I can't know for sure unless I see the pack in person. But generally speaking, yes, the bottle neck of a Tx (transmitter) pack is going to be the plug and wires, assuming it's using a high quality cell like an Eneloop. Another variable is the spot welds, but there's not much you can do about that short of making your own pack, which I get the impression you can't or don't feel comfortable doing.


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#50 scruffynerfherder

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 03:05 PM

So pretty much my only 2 options if wanting 8 eneloop aa nimh in a square 2x2x2 pack are buy a transmitter pack and desolder/resolder the wire/plug connector, or make it from scratch with loose aa eneloops?

Was really hoping to find a drop in 8 eneloop aa pack
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