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#51 shmmee

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:36 AM

My experience with RSCB's tells me that moist or damp darts do not like to slide - even through a straight tube. (my group recently had a nerf war during a rain storm). The thread is moving away from lung power to transition darts, and I think a fail has been avoided there. The  humidity that blowing in the tube would of transferred would probably of impacted dart movement after a few hours of nerfing and advancing darts down the tube.

 

As far as pumps go, you can easily source a battery powered air blower by looking near the air mattresses. I've got one, it takes 4 "D" batteries so it's stupid heavy but it puts out more air than a computer fan. A little modding to a lipo would cut down on the weight and seriously increase the output.


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#52 Meaker VI

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 09:54 AM

My experience with RSCB's tells me that moist or damp darts do not like to slide - even through a straight tube. (my group recently had a nerf war during a rain storm). The thread is moving away from lung power to transition darts, and I think a fail has been avoided there. The  humidity that blowing in the tube would of transferred would probably of impacted dart movement after a few hours of nerfing and advancing darts down the tube.

I haven't experienced any jamming because of the humidity issue so far, and I've had darts start to get damp. I suspect this is because the tube ID is significantly larger than the darts OD - in an RSCB they're usually somewhat close. I suppose I could hose the tube and darts down to check though.

I did have one jam, but I think that was due to my forcing darts in without blowing them out of the way. Good gravy though, clearing that was a bear. Recommended equipment will be a coil of household wire equal to the length of the tube you're using - unfortunately the wire I had on hand was only 7' long and I had to uncoil the tube and drop a stick of CPVC down there too. The jamb was from two darts overlapped.
 

As far as pumps go, you can easily source a battery powered air blower by looking near the air mattresses. I've got one, it takes 4 "D" batteries so it's stupid heavy but it puts out more air than a computer fan. A little modding to a lipo would cut down on the weight and seriously increase the output.

Tried one exactly like that (branded ozark trail or something), no dice.

 

Edit: Update: I've picked up a longer section of tubing. I couldn't get 100' to feed by manpower alone, so I tried to use my shop vac. It didn't seem to want to feed the whole stack either, (I may have a jam in there somewhere; I'll break the pipe up into 30' and 60' sections and see if it works Broke it into sections, no jam in either; just too much power required for me to overcome), but when I went to reverse it 103 darts came out that I'd loaded by manpower, so it'll work with at least 100. That's probably ok, I don't think you'd want to carry the 100' coil except on your back and it'd need a massive blower if my shop vac didn't want to clear it.

 

I've also found a 3/4" blue ENT adapter -> 3/4" male threaded PVC adapter and a 3/4" female threaded PVC to 1/2" PVC socket, so that part was easy.

 

Edit 2: Tried short darts, they seem to work fine but I'd be nervous going less than 1.25" -  I tried 1" and it worked but I'm afraid they could tumble in the tubing.


Edited by Meaker VI, 16 May 2017 - 02:40 PM.

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#53 NerfGeek416

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:26 PM

This came up in a reddit thread, but you can just stick a flywheel on the end of this. In fact, you can stick some ridiculously gigantic flywheel system on the end of this that would never fit in a regular blaster. https://www.reddit.c...tor_for_elites/

 

As for blowers, I think you want something like this: https://ntrs.nasa.go...20100018507.pdfIt's a regenerative blower that can make about 3.5PSI, while being pretty small. I played with this while working on a version of the rival backpack system. It can easily push an entire column (50+) of rival balls straight up and out of a tube. It's a pretty complicated piece to make, the one I played with had been cast I think, and I unfortunately no longer have access to it.


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#54 Meaker VI

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 02:35 PM

As for blowers, I think you want something like this: https://ntrs.nasa.go...20100018507.pdfIt's a regenerative blower that can make about 3.5PSI, while being pretty small. I played with this while working on a version of the rival backpack system. It can easily push an entire column (50+) of rival balls straight up and out of a tube. It's a pretty complicated piece to make, the one I played with had been cast I think, and I unfortunately no longer have access to it.

 

I think we'd need to find something that can be reliably sourced. Not knowing what I'd need (I'm not an engineer), I've been looking at something like this.


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#55 shmmee

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:22 PM

*
POPULAR

IMG_20170517_112917_zpsfkoo8smv.jpg

IMG_20170517_112927_zpsonzmgmfw.jpg

dart%20drum_zpsgs2p0gmi.jpg

So, Hoping that worked. I can't actually see the pics due to work filters. Here's some pics of my failed prototype. The entire spool rotates inside the cookie tin so only the darts segueing between the mag and cam are moving independently of the spool. With a little more guidance between the stock mag and the cam, and a lot more rethinking for spring placement and materials (like having the ribbon feeding out through slots much lower in the mag and having a longer follower - instead of wrapping up and over the top of the mag, I think it could be viable.


Edited by shmmee, 17 May 2017 - 05:27 PM.

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#56 CaptainSlug

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:06 PM

You would probably have to have your tape loads imbalanced so that there's more tension on outside of the turn. Some drum mags with carousel plates accomplish this with a spiral flat spring that helps push all the cartridges towards the center.


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#57 Meaker VI

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 04:34 PM

...And we're at 99% complete. I've found a blower that empties the thing: This Coleman Inflator. Don't use one of the other ones they also sell in nearly the same box; it's got to say "12v" on the front, not "120v", not "Rechargeable"; "12v".  I'm not an engineer (and I haven't tested it this way just yet), so I don't know that it'll also work off a Lipo, but it works off a 12v car battery and I know that those have worse performance statistics than Lipos.

 

For those of you who are engineers, the blower is supposed to put out ~25 CFM of 2.5 PSI air, which was comparable to or better than my lungs (more volume at less pressure, I think). If you can find a better blower that is also cheaper, that'd be great but as is I'm pretty excited and it is in line with the cost of other blowers I've looked at that I thought would do the job.

 

Unfortunately, it's tough to get pictures or videos right now since it needs to be plugged into my car to operate. Not much maneuvering room in there for a camera or enough hands to hold everything in place.

 

I've tested it on a short-barrel RSCB hooked up to a BBB, no dice on firing that way though. A sufficiently high-powered homemade or Y might be able to feed off it (it seems to seat in the RSCB's barrel), but I don't have one of those both working and lying around. Beyond that, the last 1% toward completion will be attaching it to a battery and building a flywheel bench rig. Once I'm ready I'll post a new writeup in homemades, maybe also darts & barrels.

 

If nothing else it works great as a foamthrower/room-broom/DtC annihilator, even without the blower.


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#58 Lasagna

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:07 PM

Nice. Packing one of those things in a DTC round would be horrifying. I might just be shooting my mouth off here but I think you might need a 4S to run the blower thing. 3S is rated to 11.1 V, but 4S is like 14.8 V. No idea tho.


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#59 CaptainSlug

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:27 PM

His blower should run fine at 3S or 4S. That's pretty much the voltage range of a car battery anyways.


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#60 Meaker VI

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 07:30 PM

Nice. Packing one of those things in a DTC round would be horrifying. I might just be shooting my mouth off here but I think you might need a 4S to run the blower thing. 3S is rated to 11.1 V, but 4S is like 14.8 V. No idea tho.

Asked torukmakto4 on Reddit; he said it should be fine but I'll need a large capacity pack.

Edit: And now ninja- Slug also says it's fine.

Edited by Meaker VI, 18 May 2017 - 07:31 PM.

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#61 jwasko

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 08:11 PM

I've tested it on a short-barrel RSCB hooked up to a BBB, no dice on firing that way though. A sufficiently high-powered homemade or Y might be able to feed off it (it seems to seat in the RSCB's barrel), but I don't have one of those both working and lying around. Beyond that, the last 1% toward completion will be attaching it to a battery and building a flywheel bench rig. Once I'm ready I'll post a new writeup in homemades, maybe also darts & barrels.

 I think BBBs are a little iffy on RSCBs anyway. A BBBB or maybe even a MK8 would be better.
 

So, Hoping that worked. I can't actually see the pics due to work filters. Here's some pics of my failed prototype. The entire spool rotates inside the cookie tin so only the darts segueing between the mag and cam are moving independently of the spool. With a little more guidance between the stock mag and the cam, and a lot more rethinking for spring placement and materials (like having the ribbon feeding out through slots much lower in the mag and having a longer follower - instead of wrapping up and over the top of the mag, I think it could be viable.


I would have thought the springload on two tapes would smash darts, but maybe not?

It seems like a great idea, you just need a way to maintain the spacing between the tapes. I would almost suggest permanently attaching the tapes together at regular intervals...except of course that would prevent the tapes from retracting into their normal housings.

 

That AK drum mag that Meaker posted pictures of has a spiral ammo guide in it: 

 

Which, I just realized after reading back through the thread, is pretty much what Snakerbot was describing as his plan.


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#62 Meaker VI

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:32 PM

I think BBBs are a little iffy on RSCBs anyway. A BBBB or maybe even a MK8 would be better.

 
I got it to fire it without trying the tube, it was a super short RSCB. I'll see if I can get something else up to try it with eventually; my Mk8 is borked (I think the lube I used messed up the seal or something).
 

That AK drum mag that Meaker posted pictures of has a spiral ammo guide in it: 
 
Which, I just realized after reading back through the thread, is pretty much what Snakerbot was describing as his plan.


Except he didn't have a spiral guide? Just an open pan? Which would've been awesome if it worked.
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#63 snakerbot

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 09:52 PM

 
I got it to fire it without trying the tube, it was a super short RSCB. I'll see if I can get something else up to try it with eventually; my Mk8 is borked (I think the lube I used messed up the seal or something).
 

Except he didn't have a spiral guide? Just an open pan? Which would've been awesome if it worked.

 

shmmee had an open pan, I was planning on using a spiral guide, although it wasn't so much a 'guide' as 'the entire magazine'. Picture a really really long stick mag rolled up like a sleeping bag.


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#64 KaneTheMediocre

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 08:52 PM

Some nifty looking things I've been working on.  Spiral drum looks awesome, but is confirmed garbage.  There is some other stuff for a linear mag that may or may not go anywhere.  The super looper thingymabob is my latest theory of dart holding.  Unfortunately, even printed with a single perimeter it took over 3 hours and 280g of plastic.  Both the loopdedoo and the spiral drum thing printed great with minimalistic and sensible pathing--The spiral in the drum is just 2 perimeters thick (2mm) and sliced with no pointless stops and starts on the spiral.  I was similarly fortunate with the loopdedoodledandy which is basically an inner and an outer perimeter.

Newbestloopde1.jpg

datquarter1.jpg

sub-optimalSpiralPic.jpg

wtfscrm1.jpg


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#65 jwasko

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 09:45 PM

Some nifty looking things I've been working on.  Spiral drum looks awesome, but is confirmed garbage.  There is some other stuff for a linear mag that may or may not go anywhere.  The super looper thingymabob is my latest theory of dart holding.  Unfortunately, even printed with a single perimeter it took over 3 hours and 280g of plastic.  Both the loopdedoo and the spiral drum thing printed great with minimalistic and sensible pathing--The spiral in the drum is just 2 perimeters thick (2mm) and sliced with no pointless stops and starts on the spiral.  I was similarly fortunate with the loopdedoodledandy which is basically an inner and an outer perimeter.


Out of curiosity what did you use as a follower for the spiral? Or, did you not even get that far?
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#66 KaneTheMediocre

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 06:55 AM

Out of curiosity what did you use as a follower for the spiral? Or, did you not even get that far?

I used my finger to test it, and determined that the binding was catastrophic, and then moved on to other things.  


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#67 Meaker VI

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 08:39 AM

What's the theory behind looperifica? Looks like it's unsealed, is it a turret of some kind?

I used my finger to test it, and determined that the binding was catastrophic, and then moved on to other things.  


Even with a carasol of some kind?

Did you see my posts last page and this where I figured out a +/-100 dart (maybe more with a better blower/shorter darts) coil mag?

Edited by Meaker VI, 31 May 2017 - 09:46 AM.

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#68 KaneTheMediocre

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 09:51 PM

What's the theory behind looperifica? Looks like it's unsealed, is it a turret of some kind?


Even with a carasol of some kind?

Did you see my posts last page and this where I figured out a +/-100 dart (maybe more with a better blower/shorter darts) coil mag?

Looperifica is in fact unsealed, and will initially be used with a flywheel cage.  I do think that I could combine it with the plusblow 6 feed mechanism for things that need to seal, but that's more difficult than what I want to do right now.

I've been down the coil magazine road before with flexible PVC, polyethylene tubing, etc, and just a check-valve mouthpiece to blow in the back.  Worked great if I limited myself to a few turns, but several turns not so much.  It's definitely at least a 3X practical expansion over a straight tube, but it's not the unlimited magazine size I'd dreamed it would be.  Good luck with the blower thing.

 

Carousels are shitty to load.  Unless I can make mine better than the firearms versions, I'm not interested, and I don't think I can.do that.  


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#69 Meaker VI

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 11:03 PM

Looperifica is in fact unsealed, and will initially be used with a flywheel cage

...but it's not the unlimited magazine size I'd dreamed it would be.  Good luck with the blower thing. 


Then you may have missed the part where I've got a 100-dart coil that *is* blower fed sitting in my garage *right now*. I need switches and a trigger (and ideally, different flywheel motors than stock) to make it possible to use, and I'd like to test the blower on a 3s but have heard from several reliable sources that it'll be fine.

Meanwhile, I'm working on seeing if I can make it both quick-changing and more compact lengthwise.
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#70 Lasagna

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 08:21 AM

I think that with your blaster, you should tone down the fire rate. Don't want to blow your whole load in one go, it would be a PAIN to reload. You would ideally not need to reload for a whole round/game, but this may not be realistic.


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#71 Meaker VI

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 11:01 PM

I think that with your blaster, you should tone down the fire rate.

 
Is this directed at me? Nobody here has a completed blaster yet, so I'm not sure, but mine is one that would require a completed blaster.
 
As such, ROF is indeterminate. Rough measurements indicate a possible rate of at least 6 DPS. For simplicity right now, I'm planning to do some kind of SNAP/ERTL trigger that will probably end up semi-automatic, because a snappy-enough trigger makes semi auto work well for my game.
 

Don't want to blow your whole load in one go, it would be a PAIN to reload.


It... isn't? I've loaded the mag several times now, it's nicer/easier to do than a stock mag. Probably also nicer than an RSCB or all but the largest of hoppers; because of the way the coil works you can drop ~10 (full-length! More short darts, even if the total capacity ends up the same!) darts in before they need to be blown clear. I'm working on a better connection for the blower that may make that even easier, possibly also much faster.
 

You would ideally not need to reload for a whole round/game, but this may not be realistic.

 

I'm actually aiming for "loads so well that you never need to change the mag, but you can also do that" as the design goal. Myself, I'd probably blow through this one in a round, I know I've gone through this many darts before (I play 3:30 ~30 minute indoor rounds with ~40-60 opponents; even if they were in one spot I'd blow through the whole mag and still not wipe the other teams). I'm just hoping to make it A- Easy to reload on the fly and B- Possible to swap if I really need to carry an extra couple hundred around. If this works really well, or if I figure out a hopper for it, someday I'll look into larger/better blowers and higher base capacities.


Edited by Meaker VI, 02 June 2017 - 11:02 PM.

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#72 mysterio

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 04:18 PM

Then you may have missed the part where I've got a 100-dart coil that *is* blower fed sitting in my garage *right now*. I need switches and a trigger (and ideally, different flywheel motors than stock) to make it possible to use, and I'd like to test the blower on a 3s but have heard from several reliable sources that it'll be fine.

Meanwhile, I'm working on seeing if I can make it both quick-changing and more compact lengthwise.

 

Meaker, if you can get a preliminary writeup going I would definitely be interested in trying to replicate it.


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If two powerful is a problem then just go with one powerful. I guess this style of hopper will work even beyond three powerful..


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#73 Bubba Longshot

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:42 PM

I got an idea, it may not be the best though... So basically it's a Nerf mag with a belt that can hold darts. Basically a mag with something like a Vulcan belt running through it.
image.jpg
Pros:
-reloadable on the fly
-has the potential to hold lots of darts
Cons:
- not too clear on how to make it
-darts may slip
-hard to make
-lots of stuff

Edited by Bubba Longshot, 05 June 2017 - 05:46 PM.

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#74 Meaker VI

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:20 PM

 
Meaker, if you can get a preliminary writeup going I would definitely be interested in trying to replicate it.


Preliminary write up: buy a section of 3/4" flexible ENT conduit linked earlier, 10' is a low entry threshold for $4 at Lowes. While you're there, get some wire ties or zip ties that are at least 11" long, a couple of 3/4" ENT -> 3/4" PVC adapters and 3/4" threaded -> socket couplers, maybe also a 3/4"->1/2" bushing, 1" sch 40 pvc, 3/4" sch 40 pvc, and maybe 1/2" pvc.

Coil the tubing up - I used a 5 gallon bucket as a template but you could do it by hand especially if you did it looser. Tie it so it stays and has the ends in desirable locations - mine are flat on top. If you're using it as a blowgun feed flywheel setup, you don't need half the couplers and can blow directly into the tube at the back. At the front attach the ENT coupler to the PVC couplers and optional bushing (bushing may need to be flared to feed easier; haven't gotten the flywheel stuff setup yet) to your PVC, which should then be attached to your FWC so the darts feed.

Optionally buy the Colman inflator linked earlier for $20 at target. Attach the inflator to the back of the coil with the couplers, 3/4" pvc, and 1" pvc - you'll need to botch the 1" or sand the locking nubs off the inflator. Cut the plug off of it and wire it into your 3s system. Ideally do it so that the wheels can be switched off independent of the blower, but the wheels and lower are both rigged to a rev trigger.


That's as far as I've gotten since I'm waiting on electrical parts. A trigger shouldn't be hard to work out, a T-shaped trigger that protrudes into the firing tube such that it blocks darts behind and allows darts inside it through *should* work. Alternatively a SNAP or similar would work all you need to do is stop the darts. I'd like to get a better system designed that pushes a set number of darts through, but that'll need to wait until I get the electronics in place.

 

EDIT: Got electronics, soldering tools, and time: made this.


Edited by Meaker VI, 22 June 2017 - 04:07 PM.

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