73 replies to this topic

[CaptainSlug]

The ones I was happy with in hoppers aren't even being sold anywhere anymore, so they're pretty much extinct.

[Geric2004]

How bout' double stack mags? This guy made one: 
 

[NerfGeek416]

That is really bad news about mengun I just ordered 400, so hopefully I get the good kind. 

[Meaker VI]

How bout' double stack mags? This guy made one...

 

In my mind, that does everything mags already do but with a totally new ecosystem required. So I'll be spending effort elsewhere, even though that's cool and higher capacity than regular mags.

[Draconis]

 

In my mind, that does everything mags already do but with a totally new ecosystem required. So I'll be spending effort elsewhere, even though that's cool and higher capacity than regular mags.

Might be good as retrofits for blaster that use larger clips, such as the Buzz Bees with the shell clips, or MEGA clips.  Conversely, if a homemade were designed to use a double-stack type, an adapter for single-stacks normal clips could also be made.  Sorta like Cartaya/Jet's half-length clips, but wider.

[Meaker VI]

Might be good as retrofits for blaster that use larger clips, such as the Buzz Bees with the shell clips, or MEGA clips.  Conversely, if a homemade were designed to use a double-stack type, an adapter for single-stacks normal clips could also be made.  Sorta like Cartaya/Jet's half-length clips, but wider.

Maybe. You'd need to get the darts to go back to single stack to make an adapter. Short dart mags and adapters are also attractive toward this goal IMO.

[Silly]

What about a mag shaped like a U, with a drum style pusher mech so it can go around the curve?

You could take flat plastic sheets, make the 2 stick pieces of the U, then bend some more sheet or 3d print a addapter for the curve.

Or you could take 2 18 mags and chop off the bottom of one, slap on a printed adapter for the curve, then chop off the top of the other mag and put that side into the other end of the curve adapter.

Edited by Silly, 12 May 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[Meaker VI]

What about a mag shaped like a U, with a drum style pusher mech so it can go around the curve?

You could take flat plastic sheets, make the 2 stick pieces of the U, then bend some more sheet or 3d print a addapter for the curve.

Or you could take 2 18 mags and chop off the bottom of one, slap on a printed adapter for the curve, then chop off the top of the other mag and put that side into the other end of the curve adapter.

This is something like what a high-cap airsoft mag does. It's Worth looking into, probably more so the way you describe than the way I tested.

[Silly]

If i had spare mags, i would definitely try to make one, but i have only a few ones right now that i cant afford to slaughter in the name of progress.

[snakerbot]

I thought about one of those before the spiral drum concept. My original thought was that the same CF spring in the raider drum could improve feed rate and reliability if it didn't have to turn the sprocket. The spiral drum then evolved from the idea that magazines don't need to be straight. It may be worth a shot, especially since it'll be easier to build than a spiral drum, but I think you'll run into the same problem with dart to wall friction.

I probably won't be putting much time or money into either of these concepts for a while, since I'm currently working on other things. Like buying a house.

[Silly]

Houses are good. I think i may be able to use the springs from a broken 18 mag and a broken 12 mag i have, so this idea may be tested soon after all!

[shmmee]

Much of this topic actually hits on a failed prototype I made many many years ago. I think I still have it in a box somewhere. I'll have to dig it out. Basically, 2 ribbons from 2 tape measures are supposed to neatly guide a line of darts through a mag and wrap them around the center of a spool with the ribbons forming the walls while the darts transition from out the bottom of the mag to the center of the spool. Because the entire spool is rotating along with the wound up line of darts, you only get friction on the few darts that are spinning towards or away from the spool. The spool would also perform better as more darts were loaded in - increasing the leverage the tape measures could exert on retracting the ribbon.

 

The functioning theory was that as darts are placed inside the mag (between the two ribbons) the ribbons would travel with the darts, guiding them to the cog in the center of the spool and as the spool is wound the ribbons & darts, the ribbons would feed in and out from the tape measures keeping potentially hundreds of in a neatly wound spiral. 

 

Theory collapsed into reality when I tried loading the thing. The ribbons failed to keep the darts neatly aligned during the mag to spool transition and as soon as they exited bottom of the mag they broke rank and jumbled into an un-extractable mess. I made a crappy ms paint drawing of expectations vs reality of that prototype but my work filters photobucket and I'm out of mobile data, so you'll all just have to wait till later. It could possibly work if there was a swinging guide running from the bottom of the mag to the cam, (keeping the darts aligned as it transitions) but after my initial failure I kinda stopped caring and threw it in a box. Also, I think I'd need something more sturdy than the 1/2" wide ribbon I was using. The ribbons were prone to bunching and twisting and falling off of the tape measure spool.

 

Another down side is that I had to chop off the fingers on top of the mag (the ones that keep darts from jumping completely out of the magazine). Without those fingers, a loaded drum has to be in a blaster or it will unload itself in quick glorious fashion. Knowing what i know now I probably could of kept the fingers and had just cut a slit for the ribbon to pass through instead. Better yet, instead of folding the ribbon over the top of the mag, simply pull the ribbon through slits at the bottom of the mag and have a longer follower (I used 1/2" lengths of dowel to make dummy darts for a follower) to make up the difference. Poof. no sharp fold on the ribbon and I'd get to keep the dart fingers at the top of the mag... wow, i'm actually starting to care about that project again!

Edited by shmmee, 12 May 2017 - 03:17 PM.

[Meaker VI]

Oh, also: How it's Made (the show, watch on YouTube) has some fascinating machinery and production lines that probably have parts that would apply to this project. One I saw was a conveyer that moved cans and appeared to consist of simply 6 metal rods - one for each end and two for each of the sides. That'd be easier to build into whatever shape needed and probably lower friction than machining solid materials to shape.

[Silly]

Oh, also: How it's Made (the show, watch on YouTube) has some fascinating machinery and production lines that probably have parts that would apply to this project. One I saw was a conveyer that moved cans and appeared to consist of simply 6 metal rods - one for each end and two for each of the sides. That'd be easier to build into whatever shape needed and probably lower friction than machining solid materials to shape.

Small problem: those use electric motors, chains, sh!t loads of power (over time), and are heavier then...well...something really heavy.

[Meaker VI]

Small problem: those use electric motors, chains, sh!t loads of power (over time), and are heavier then...well...something really heavy.

Some do, yeah, but not all and you wouldn't try to use the *really* heavy systems anyway.

[Lasagna]

What about a mag shaped like a U, with a drum style pusher mech so it can go around the curve?

You could take flat plastic sheets, make the 2 stick pieces of the U, then bend some more sheet or 3d print a addapter for the curve.

Or you could take 2 18 mags and chop off the bottom of one, slap on a printed adapter for the curve, then chop off the top of the other mag and put that side into the other end of the curve adapter.

Something like this could work. I remember this promotional thing I got at some event, it was a pen with this tape measure sort of thing with a flat piece of this material as the measure instead of a concave shape.

[Meaker VI]

Alright gents, I've about 80% solved the problem. Assuming, of course, you're ok with a homemade solution that WILL NOT work in existing blasters. Given the forum we're on, I'm hoping that's a fair assumption.

So here we go:


This is a 10' section of CARLON 3/4" flexible ENT conduit "Smurf Tube" I picked up at Lowe's, but I've seen elsewhere. I coiled (more like wrangled, this stuff does NOT want to be this tightly coiled) it up inside a 5 gallon bucket and zip tied it in this shape. I then loaded darts RSCB style into the back and blew on it like a blowgun. All 42 full-length stock and waffle darts came flying out. Ed: USCs also worked fine.

Looking around for a battery-operated pump, I found a 6v inflator that would launch a few darts, but not the full stack. I loosely hooked it up to my small pancake compressor's blowgun and got it to empty with ~60 PSI bursts. So if someone has a high-volume mid-PSI (basically something with the same power/flow as a person) battery operated (ideally 12v) low cost pump they know of, I'd love to pick one up. Or if you own such a thing and know it's readily available, buy the conduit and let me know if it worked- this stuff was ~$3 for the 10' stick.

There exist special couplers for this conduit, and I'm sure it's sold somewhere in longer rolls. This cleared easily enough as a blowgun I'd try 20-30' (84-126 full-length darts) without hesitation.

My plan for a blaster design is to run this to a flywheel setup with a trigger that just stops the darts flowing (maybe also "encourages" the dart it's stopping through). Ideally I could also have loading doors (I.e.: Y's with doors on them) ahead and behind the coil with the pump hooked up to the input of the rear Y. I should check that this feeds into 1/2" PVC to accompany that goal. It feeds into 1/2" PVC fine. Just holding the parts in place with my hands - no actual couplers, chamfers, or seals - was sufficient to feed the ~12 darts I loaded for the test.

Edited by Meaker VI, 15 May 2017 - 03:27 PM.

[Silly]

Must be a pain to load though right? I think the flexy pipe can be a option, but we should try to stick to more conventional clips and similar. Good job though!

[Meaker VI]

Must be a pain to load though right?

 

Not at all - It's far easier than even a Boomco clip, which I consider much easier/faster than an N-strike clip. Just take a handful of darts, making sure they're all pointing the right way, then start dropping them in. With a little flared end added it could be crazy easy. You need to put some flow through the pipe every 10 or so at this diameter circle to move them out of the way and make loading easier, but that'd be no big deal with a powered setup. If I put Y's in, it'd be no harder than a hopper, it'd just hold way more darts.

 

Also, forgot the scale (for those unfamiliar with 5-gallon buckets): It's almost exactly the same diameter as an 18 clip is long. So in a blaster it'd be sticking down just as much as the go-to clip does anyway.

[CaptainSlug]

For a pump you need a centrifugal blower. Static pressure is more important than CFM. Though I suspect the size you might need is around 50CFM.

 

My plan for a blaster design is to run this to a flywheel setup with a trigger that just stops the darts flowing (maybe also "encourages" the dart it's stopping through).

You might want an escapement that releases the dart in the end of the chain, but pinches or blocks the dart that's second in the chain. Unless of course your goal is full-auto all the time.

[Meaker VI]

For a pump you need a centrifugal blower. Static pressure is more important than CFM. Though I suspect the size you might need is around 150 to 200CFM.

Quick research seems to show an adult's lung capacity at ~4 liters and ~2-4 PSI. I'm not sure how that'd translate to blower sizes and your help determining that would be greatly appreciated. I had no trouble blow gunning this whole thing, so I suspect it wasn't requiring anywhere near maximum capacity or performance out of my body.

 

Ed: Would something like this be worth trying?
 

You might want an escapement that releases the dart in the end of the chain, but pinches or blocks the dart that's second in the chain. Unless of course your goal is full-auto all the time.

Yeah, that sounds like what I was thinking though a diagram of what you're talking about would help - my two thoughts were either a lever with arms on either end that would 'capture' one dart with the front arm in the released position, let it go and block the darts to the rear in the pulled position; or a wheel/gear that stopped the darts by friction and turned on trigger pull to let them pass. It seems like it'd be possible with either to have a select-fire semi/auto easily available, with the possibility for burst fire if I spent the time figuring it out.

 

Edit: Conducted a rediculously low-tech test (held a piece of 1/2" PVC up to the end of the 3/4" conduit coil) and it loads & feeds through 1/2" PVC just fine. I'll need to get an adapter to mount the PVC properly, I believe one should exist or be easy enough to rig up (might need to go flex-> 3/4" PVC, 3/4" PVC->1/2" PVC) since PVC is a common conduit material. Also tested some USCs, the couple I loaded behind regular darts fed fine.

Edited by Meaker VI, 15 May 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[CaptainSlug]

your help determining that would be greatly appreciated.

You would have to build a manometer out of some clear tubing. You are probably going to need a VERY TALL one if you want to run comparison between human lungs and a blower. But given that you aren't "using full capacity" you're probably not doing the work using pressure anyways. However, most other fans cannot handle the kind of restriction that what you are trying to accomplish entails.

 

Centrifugal blowers are going to be spec'd with a scale of static pressure and how it impacts output CFM. From that you can graph how flow restriction will change the expected CFM output of the blower. But just from gut instinct and past projects that were relevant I don't expect you'll accomplish much with blowers rated below 50 CFM. Something on the scale of a battery-powered leaf blower/vacuum (75CFM) or the size of blower used for automatic air conditioning (50CFM, but those are usually double-cage). Maybe try one of these first.

 

http://www.delta-fan...?seriesname=BCB

 

There's a bunch of fans from that series on ebay for under $15 shipped. Bigger is better, but the deeper the unit is the higher the likely static pressure ceiling is going to be.

[Meaker VI]

You would have to build a manometer out of some clear tubing. You are probably going to need a VERY TALL one if you want to run comparison between human lungs and a blower. But given that you aren't "using full capacity" you're probably not doing the work using pressure anyways. However, most other fans cannot handle the kind of restriction that what you are trying to accomplish entails.

The research I did says a person can do 60-100" H20 (~2-6 PSI). I found a boat bilge blower that sounds like it should work; but I'm having a hard time sourcing fans powerful enough that are also cheap enough to just try on ebay though.

[jwasko]

You have seen the "HIRricane", haven't you Meaker?

 

He originally used those PC fans (there's a full partslist in that video's description). 

 

Later, I think people stated using ducted fans (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n3QFbFYS64 for example.) They 3d printed the ducts I guess.

He did some select fire stuff with solenoids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUJDlMlSn4

Point is he had a backpack that fed through flexible hose too. I never thought darts would feed so well.

Edited by jwasko, 15 May 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[Meaker VI]

You have seen the "HIRricane", haven't you Meaker?

Yes I had. It hadn't occured to me that I should look to his solution for fan options, I've sent him a message on Reddit to see if he's got ideas. I don't know that the 12 CFM fan he uses will be sufficient though - his ammo is round and rolls, mine slides.
 

Point is he had a backpack that fed through flexible hose too. I never thought darts would feed so well.

I've seen the backpack too, and I've been looking for something to feed darts in a similar manner for awhile, possibly since before he did it. I'd looked at hoses, PEX and all manner of other pipes, bending PVC; as a part of one conversation with slug that initiated this thread I looked into using 2-liter bottles as hoppers. I'd walked past this stuff a few times and thought to look at it today, low and behold it worked awesome. So awesome, in fact (with the further testing with USC's and 1/2" PVC), that I don't see a reason to pursue any other solutions - this build will quite possibly cost less than an equivalent flywheel blaster build with anything like similar capacity. You really can't beat $4 per 42 darts (or ~$40 for the 100' roll and 420 darts, assuming that setup works as well).

 

It's going to need all the same parts a high-end mag-fed flywheel would need anyway (battery, wire, switch, motors, cage, wheels), but it won't need a blaster or mags or a mag carrier. I'll need to see what the framework looks like once I get a blower figured out, but I'm thinking that won't be difficult or overly expensive. I could pretty easily whip up a 3d printable FWC/Trigger/Dart stopper/battery carrier and something to attach the blower securely to just the zip-tied coil if I wanted to be so coarse.

 

In springers, this might work set up as a powered hopper or RSCB, which should be easy to test once I get a blower.