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Improving The R S C B

I call it the BRISC. Or CRIBS. Whatever.

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#1 Ice Nine

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:25 PM

STOP! Collaborate, and listen! Ice Nine's back with a brand new invention!

This was my previous +bow RSCB war setup:

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It's very similar to the setup Koree posted in one of the pinned topics very recently. I put CPVC in the internal bits of PVC to reduce dead space, which, at the very least, did not reduce performance. The ball valve on the end of the clip is attached via a bushing and works very well in a war. I sanded down the very beginning of the barrel as my darts are tight in PETG and this makes them fall slightly further inwards than they would normally, improving performance and decreasing the already slim chance of misfires.

I believe that there is not much that one can do to improve a normal RSCB beyond the internal dead space reduction I have performed and perhaps switching the clip to SCH80 PVC, which Split says made a noticeable shift in his ranges. Badwrench's poppet idea was quite interesting and has merit but quite often I find myself not using a 4B, which would have no problem overcoming the occasional jamming problem with crazy airflow. There are probably ways to improve that design but I thought there were better ways to improve performance.

The best way I could think of improving an RSCB is to instead change the direction in which air flows. The tee in the RSCB couples with the elbow, which basically smashes air against the top of the tee before pushing the dart out of the barrel. I reasoned that airflow entering from an angle would provide at least a small improvement by directing air towards the barrel instead of merely into the system.

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I had to buy these online. I haven't seen them in stores. But they do the job perfectly. They are... PVC wyes.

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As you can see, it couples with a forty-five degree elbow. The end result is a tee setup that has the same height as a normal elbow/tee setup, which unfortunately means that there innately a little more dead space in this system than in the other one. This can be overcome with methods I haven't performed yet, such as cutting down the attaching parts of the coupling ends.

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This is the final product. My +bow is not currently assembled at the moment. This, coupled with the fact that I have no darts, means that qualitative measurements is impossible at this moment. However, my shipment of dartsmithing materials is en route and I am mailing a few of these pieces to Split. I have the utmost confidence that Split and his +pistol can provide quality results, be it in favor of this or the traditional system.

However, I have a few stray darts lying around that managed to make it back from Chicago. Preliminary (and not at all qualitative) measurements using my Frankenfinder tend to favor the BRISC clip to the RSCB when the same piece of PVC is used in the clip and a dart is hand loaded into the barrel for consistency.

I figured that, while this is by no means a completed project, it stands to benefit the NIC as-is. I plan on using one of these in some form at Armageddon on at least my +bow, and probably a few other guns.

Finally, as to the naming, I have the presumption to add myself (Ice Nine) to the Rawray7/ShortShit/CynicalSynapse/3DBBQ group. Through rearrangement I arrived at either BRISC, or CRIBS, or any other number of variations thereof. Even though it was only small, not super thorough preliminary testing, I think there is certainly room for improvement on the traditional RSCB though these wyes.

Edited by Ice Nine, 05 July 2009 - 12:32 PM.

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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

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#2 Talio

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:32 PM

The ball valve is actually an excellent idea. Well done.
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#3 umpshaplapa

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:52 PM

Check out this thing Nerkum did.
EDIT- With the ball valve you can set up another "clip" in the back. I did it with a BBBB here. You have to scroll down to get to my post.

Edited by umpshaplapa, 02 July 2009 - 06:55 PM.

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QUOTE(Talio @ Jun 29 2009, 01:50 PM) View Post

i got a black belt in noob banning in 2004.


#4 Ice Nine

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:55 PM

Check out this thing Nerkum did.


I personally prefer not to use a system that requires a mechanical advancement to work properly. Dead space reduction at the back of clips is generally over-emphasized and the purpose of the airflow improvements of the BRISC is to bypass that problem nearly completely.

EDIT- With the ball valve you can set up another "clip" in the back. I did it with a BBBB here. You have to scroll down to get to my post.


This is from, like, 2004:

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By me.

ShortShit's initial writeup also included the ball valve for the extra clip. It isn't something I use on my +bow because this clip aready almost reaches the stock of the gun and having it longer would mean moving it to the side.

Edited by Ice Nine, 02 July 2009 - 07:04 PM.

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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#5 Carbon

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 07:03 PM

Very, very interested in seeing a large data set for this setup.

I question how much of a measurable effect this could have, as the primary firing action occurs when the entire RSCB comes to pressure. Angling the tee would help with turbulence, but I'd be surprised if it had a consistent, measurable effect.

Then again, these firing systems are weird, and it wouldn't be the first time that I've been surprised by how they seem to work.

Who first started using those ball valve setups? Daniel Beaver first showed me the 3/4" ball valve setup at a war last spring, but I'm not sure where the concept first popped up. At any rate, you're right, Talio, it works great.
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#6 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 07:32 PM

Very, very interested in seeing a large data set for this setup.

I question how much of a measurable effect this could have, as the primary firing action occurs when the entire RSCB comes to pressure. Angling the tee would help with turbulence, but I'd be surprised if it had a consistent, measurable effect.


If a longer, looser barrel is used, then there could certainly be statistically significant increases in range, as such a setup requires lower pressure to fire, and thus power delivery varies more with fluid flow and less with system volume.
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#7 Split

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 07:47 PM

Very, very interested in seeing a large data set for this setup.

I question how much of a measurable effect this could have, as the primary firing action occurs when the entire RSCB comes to pressure. Angling the tee would help with turbulence, but I'd be surprised if it had a consistent, measurable effect.


If a longer, looser barrel is used, then there could certainly be statistically significant increases in range, as such a setup requires lower pressure to fire, and thus power delivery varies more with fluid flow and less with system volume.

There could certainly be statistically significant decreases in range also, because ::insert random bullshit speculation here::...

I'll get some tests up for you guys whenever my wyes get here.

Edit: OoOO post #7.

Edited by Split, 02 July 2009 - 07:48 PM.

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Teehee.

#8 Zorns Lemma

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 08:15 PM

There could certainly be statistically significant decreases in range also, because ::insert random bullshit speculation here::...


But if we don't keep a positive attitude, how are we going to fall to confirmation bias?
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#9 fallinouttadabox

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 10:04 PM

You could reduce deadspace if you used a street 45 instead of a regular one.
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#10 Ice Nine

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 01:33 AM

You could reduce deadspace if you used a street 45 instead of a regular one.


This is a good point that I know we discussed in the IRC room. This is a valid way of shortening the path from the exit of the plunger or airtank to the dart, but I kept the current system in place to extend the clip of the RSCB enough to add another dart. I find that I'll probably be more benefitted by that extra shot than the slight reduction in both dead space and overall gun length.

I shipped Split's tees out and my McMaster parts arrived. I imagine he'll be ready for testing before I will, but I can probably give results by the middle or the end of next week.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#11 TantumBull

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 03:31 PM

I agree with Carbon. This looks promising and I'd love to see some numbers. Great idea.
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#12 Ice Nine

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 12:30 PM

Here's a little update. Just figured I'd show everyone what these things look like on guns.

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The PETG barrel is actually inside the setup on the +bow as my windowsill isn't wide enough to accommodate the length of the gun without stressing the PETG. Also my +bow is being cleaned so it lacks a plunger head and spring at the moment.

The setup looks aesthetically better in my opinion, a little more fluid and smoother on the guns themselves. My foam has not yet arrived (holiday weekend) and likewise Split's package has not moved. Expect further updates this week.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#13 nerfboi

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 12:37 PM

Wow, looks WAY more better. I'm just curious, but where did you buy the Wye? I goggled them and the only ones that came up were 1 1/2" ones.
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#14 Ice Nine

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 12:40 PM

Wow, looks WAY more better. I'm just curious, but where did you buy the Wye? I goggled them and the only ones that came up were 1 1/2" ones.


I got them here. It is the perfect website for anything PVC related, except for low-torque ball valves, which I located on Amazon in the proper sizes. I haven't ordered one yet, though.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#15 BustaNinja

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 08:02 AM

Daniel beaver was using ball valves on the ends of his clips for a while now. It works much better then an end cap.
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#16 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 12:11 PM

Daniel beaver was using ball valves on the ends of his clips for a while now. It works much better then an end cap.

Yep. It's not a new idea -- the original used a ball valve. 3/4" PVC ball valves work better, though.

Ice9, I'm not yet convinced of the inherent utility of this setup. Do some range tests. Damn, dirty range tests :D
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#17 Ice Nine

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 01:16 PM

I have occasionally been able to find half-inch ball valves which will pass a stefan easily. Even at Lowe's. Look for the words "full flow" in the description - mostly what that seems to mean is that the hole through the center of the ball is as large as typical pipe ID. Now, if someone could find that in conjunction with "low torque" all in one valve, we would really be in good shape. But there is also some hope of loosening up the action of the more ordinary valves. I'll see if I can modify a "full flow" one, after Armageddon.

Additionally, I should be receiving my (full flow) flap-type checkvalves tomorrow ... but that's a whole different improvement idea, inspired by some of Mr Badwrench's experiments ...


If you guys want normal low-torque ball valves, Amazon surprisingly sells them. This is the 3/4" inch size, which will work with a bushing on a clip. Koree ordered some.

Bob, I've told you in chat, but I'm really interested to see what you come up with.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#18 Ice Nine

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Posted 10 July 2009 - 12:17 AM

Well, I managed to get out to the park for testing after class today. The results have been discussed to a pretty decent length.

I want to emphasize that before people read and interpret this data (and later, compare to Split's when he is able to test) that I was attempting to test comparative efficiency, rather than overall effectiveness. Split is planning on maximizing the range gotten from both setups, which is a test that has a lot of merit; I kept a system constant, only substituting the two bridge pieces (ninety degrees and forty five degrees) in order to try to determine if there was any difference in the setup.

For testing, I took thirty shots out of three setups and measured from the position. I fired from the same position, and hand-loaded each dart into the barrel for consistency. I did in fact fill the clip each time (eight shots total, using the same eight darts over the test), and take a dart out to hand-load, so the ranges presented do represent an emptying of the clip.

So, I guess I should present the data before putting forth what I can conclude.

TRADITIONAL RSCB:
65, 65, 78, 72, 71, 72, 69, 70
76, 72, 71, 71, 65, 65, 64, 61
80, 71, 70, 70, 67, 63, 60, 60
81, 79, 74, 70, 68, 64

BRISC:
78, 75, 73, 73, 71, 67, 64, 63
82, 76, 78, 71, 68, 66, 61, 60
79, 78, 73, 71, 70, 68, 62, 62
76, 75, 71, 69, 66, 65

TRADITIONAL RSCB AVERAGE: 67.133 ft
BRISC AVERAGE: 70.367 ft

All testing was done with an eleven inch PETG barrel on a clip on my +bow. So, uh, I suck at dart-barrel.

Now, I took a third test as a baseline as to whether or not my results could be considered at all conclusive. I tested with a single barrel (the same eleven inch PETG barrel).

SINGLED:
78, 76, 67, 68, 73, 64, 80, 63
67, 75, 81, 60, 64, 65, 72, 68
70, 71, 66, 79, 64, 69, 80, 63
78, 67, 77, 73, 79, 69

SINGLE BARREL AVERAGE: 70.867 ft

So, uh, that is that. I tested with Slug darts, wind coming directly opposed to the gun (that is, darts fired directly into the wind) at no more than three miles per hour or so. All shots were fired as level as possible, the gun with primed without a barrel in place so as to make sure the clip and system were at atmospheric initial pressure, and each dart was loaded to as close to exactly the same point in the barrel as I could manage by hand. My only conclusion is exactly how poor I am at dart-barrel fittings.

If one accepts that there is little perceptible difference between the BRISC and RSCB, they must also conclude that a singled gun and an RSCB will also reach the same average ranges.

Another issue is consistency issues in the firing. Even though the dead space in the clip increased with every shot fired, some shots towards an empty clip outshot darts earlier in the clip. The ranges appear to be mostly in order due to the measurements, which were taken as I walked forward. This further suggests dart-barrel setup problems; ideally the nth dart fires further than the (n-1)th dart, which was not the case here.

I'm just going to wait for Split to try maximization. Feel free to interpret this data however you like, and mock my ludicrously poor +bow ranges. I deserve it.
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Unholy Three: DUPLUM SCRTA, DUPLUM PROBLEMA (2009)

But Zeke guns tend to be like proofs by contradiction

Theoretically solid but actually non-constructive

Rnbw Cln


#19 k9turrent

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 05:59 AM

Very nice, Very nice... Now I guess that there is one less problem that we has to worry about with RSCBs.
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QUOTE View Post

That's about it. And thanks Angela who helped me with these pictures.. It looks huge in her hands.


HOLY CRAP!

FU ALL

#20 CA13

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 07:33 PM

Very nice, Very nice... Now I guess that there is one less problem that we has to worry about with RSCBs.


Well, we have one thing right... Ice Nine has topped the RSCB.

No big deal K9, it's just that you have made so many grammatically incorrect posts that I want to point that out for you now.

I think you should put this on your Fobar, Ice Nine.
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Doing this as I speak. I have no idea when I got it...my DAD got it some 15 years ago, but that doesn't matter. Anyways, it keeps jerking around all over the place. I try to hold it with a rag...It doesn't look like...much.


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