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The Dark Knight

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#76 Langley

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 10:21 AM

One of the things I thought they never really tied up in the movie was the whole thing with Scarecrow. I mean, it shows him in the beginning with that silly bag of his over his head but it never really showed whether he got caught or anything so I thought he was just going to show up later in the movie... but he didn't. What's up with that?


Batman landed on his car and crushed the hell out of the thing. It's implied that he gets caught. They put that in there to show that batman has been cleaning up the mess from the end of the last film (including the stuff that comes up in the viral marketing) and to tie up the Dr Crane plot line.
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#77 Chanclas

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 01:27 PM

Of course they showed Scarecrow get caught in the beginning. Don't you remember when the fat Batman copycat said "We just want to help you!", Batman said "I don't need help", and Scarecrow said "That's not my diagnosis"? The fat guy and Scarecrow were both tied up, zip-tied, or hand-cuffed and sitting against a wall. He was caught and sent to Arkham Asylum.

And since I don't need to tell you guys how great the movie is I will say this instead, The Dark Knight is NOT a superhero movie. Bruce Wayne has NO super powers. A superhero is one who was born with abilities that humans do not have, such as the X-Men or . I don't know what I'd call Spider-Man or Hulk but they weren't born super so I wouldn't say that they are superheroes.

By the way, I like Jack Nicholson's Joker better just because he fits the Joker's story better--at least it's the story that I know to be true. And I don't think Harvey Dent is dead, they said that publicly so that the citizens wouldn't think badly of him. He's very likely sitting in Arkham. And I really didn't see what was so amazing about the disappearing pencil trick, it really wasn't anything new to me, seen something like it before.

To those who use that site to see the movie, it is illegal, it has to be because you aren't paying anything. That's called stealing, which is illegal. Besides, it really is worth it to pay and see it on the humongous screens of IMAX. Some people are paying $60 per ticket on eBay to see the movie, IMAX or not. I wouldn't pay that because I pre-order my tickets like any smart person would but I do think that it is worth that kind of money. Everybody should see it again just to help it beat Titanic for #1 movie ever to be released in theaters.
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#78 Omega

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:05 PM

Chanclas, I agree that it's not a superhero movie, but not for the reasons you said. The Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-Man- they're all superheroes, no doubt about it. It's not a superhero movie. The good superhero movies of recent years (Spider-Man 2, Iron Man) have followed a fairly standard plot structure: the superhero’s powers define not only his own moral code, but the framework of his nemesis. What takes place in the course of the story is the external projection of an internal struggle, until the superhero defeats his enemy in a fistfight symbolic of the overtaking of his own demons.

Batman Begins, in my opinion, was the best superhero movie of all time for this reason. Bruce Wayne’s “powers” come to him through his dedication to the greater cause of Justice. Alfred represents his own conscience, and Ra’s Al-Ghul articulates the thirst for vengeance that sleeps deep down inside Batman. Ultimately, Wayne’s moral code triumphs: that of justice, not born of vigilantism, but out of a real thirst for peace and harmony.

The Dark Knight has its own superhero: Harvey Dent. He is described throughout as the “white knight” of Gotham, while Batman’s “dark knight” moniker is only implied by contrast to it. The real dichotomy, the dialog that takes place in The Dark Knight is between Batman and Harvey Dent. Batman is initially rendered obsolete by Harvey Dent, who rallies Gotham under his leadership and banishes the ghosts of crime. Harvey Dent couldn’t have accomplished this without Batman, of course; but Batman likewise needs Harvey Dent to center his morals in a coherent frame. Dent, quite simply, is the pillar on which Batman’s moral code rests. Without Dent, there would be no justice in the way Batman envisions it.

And then the Joker comes in. He is not a villain in any traditional sense of the word. Even using the word “character” is rather inappropriate. The Joker’s role in The Dark Knight is closer to that of the Oracle in homerian tales, which announces the wrath of the gods. He is the Oracle, but also the god itself, striking chaos into the heart of Gotham. He is not a terrorist but Terror itself. He is Shiva, come to this world to test its mettle. To test Batman and Dent’s equilibrium.

The sense of gloom and despair seeping out of The Dark Knight comes from this very traditional device of the Oracle announcing impending doom, then the gods enacting it. The Joker never loses; he is never truly put to the test. All he does is carry out his plans, assaulting not only Gotham, but Batman and Harvey Dent’s own moral framework. The Joker puts it in sublime terms himself when he says to Dent, “I am just a mad dog chasing cars.”

Until the framework breaks.

What happens next is the deconstruction of the white knight: how Harvey Dent’s approach simply cannot work in the context of chaos and social frenzy brought on by the Joker. Dent holds on for the longest time, while Bruce Wayne doubts his own role, as he naively sees himself as a white knight lurking in shadows. Alfred is the first one to point out the need for a new approach, that of realism: “Endure. You can be the outcast. You can make the choice that no one else will face - the right choice.”

And so, as the white knight of Gotham falls and becomes a creature of pure chance, the Dark Knight rises from its shadow.

Batman, who will spy on the whole of Gotham to get at his enemies. Batman, whom cops fear and accuse of murder. Batman, who must take upon himself the pain and anger of others so the city will endure. Gordon says it himself: Batman is not a hero. He’s a guardian.

Batman rises from the corpse of Harvey Dent like a malevolent shadow, prepared not to do what’s right, but what’s necessary. The Joker never won, and never lost; he is above this contest. He defines it, rather than play a part in it. Chaos has come and gone, and the balance is broken.

The Dark Knight is a morality tale, a conflict between two men in balance who see their roles crushed by the arrival of fate. It is a moral tale of the post-9/11 era, where good and evil simply dissolve in the face of chaos, and we are left to wonder how to reframe the world.

And that is why The Dark Knight is not the best superhero movie ever. It is something entirely different, much darker, and much more satisfying.

Linkback: http://www.alt-shift...ero-movie-ever/


Chanclas, when are you ever given reason to suspect that Harvey Dent is alive? Ever? You aren't.

And as for the illegality thing, you're wrong. Sites like SurfTheChannel simply show content that is hosted on other sites. Say, for instance, Google Video has a video of The Dark Knight, and that website links back to that video. That's all it's doing. Since the content is hosted on someone else's server, it's perfectly legal. Which makes you a douche. Don't make vague pronouncements when you don't know what you're talking about.
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#79 Poseidon

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:15 PM

Chanclas, thanks for pointing out that one part with The Scarecrow. He just isn't as recognizable without that creepy mask on B) .
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#80 NJ NerfSquad

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:37 PM

Going into the movie theater I was still skeptical... Heath ledger just didnt seem like a good Joker Before the movie... Now I wish he was alive to praise him...

I got a bootleg the week it came out and enjoy it every day or two.
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#81 Forsaken angel24

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 09:35 PM

I wasn't going to post or even read this thread again but I came across this.
It has me cracking up every time.

Dark Knight deleted scene.

I love watching the slow transfer from "somewhat understandable" batman to the "What the hell is he saying" throughout the skit.

2:30 is my favorite part.

Edited by Forsaken_angel24, 07 August 2008 - 09:37 PM.

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#82 balisticjoe

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 10:51 PM

And since I don't need to tell you guys how great the movie is I will say this instead, The Dark Knight is NOT a superhero movie. Bruce Wayne has NO super powers. A superhero is one who was born with abilities that humans do not have, such as the X-Men or . I don't know what I'd call Spider-Man or Hulk but they weren't born super so I wouldn't say that they are superheroes.



Chanclas, I agree that it's not a superhero movie, but not for the reasons you said. The Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-Man- they're all superheroes, no doubt about it. It's not a superhero movie. The good superhero movies of recent years (Spider-Man 2, Iron Man) have followed a fairly standard plot structure: the superhero’s powers define not only his own moral code, but the framework of his nemesis. What takes place in the course of the story is the external projection of an internal struggle, until the superhero defeats his enemy in a fistfight symbolic of the overtaking of his own demons.


I find these two statements somehow controversial yet supporting of each other.
Chanclas, In the first hulk movie he was born a superhero. I haven't seen the new one so I don't know what happens, but I would suggest looking at the books or at least asking what happened in the original comics.

Omega, Doesn't batman face an internal struggle. Watch the first movie a couple more times and you will see where the basis of struggle begins. It starts off as he goes into the cave. There he becomes afraid of the bats. He goes though some time then his father tells about he is helping the city and how to care for others. Then his father is killed by one of the people he is trying to help. Bruce runs away with the thought that you cant trust anyone and you can only help yourself. As he travels he becomes accustomed to doing bad things in order to help others as shown with the apple and the kid. he inevitably becomes imprisoned. There he gets angry and vengeful. Here he decides to "Help others that can't help themselves". Eventually he goes to train with ras al ghool (however you spell it). There he learns how to fight. after the "accident" with his house Bruce decides to go home, wanting to "Help others that can't help themselves". To do this he "embodies his greatest fear". This continuous theme with the movie Is bound to give some sort of internal struggle.

I personally think there is two types of heroes. The ones that are in our minds, and are drawn on paper. And those true heroes, the ones in other countries fighting wars, and the ones patrolling our streets to keep us safe.
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#83 Chanclas

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 03:28 AM

I've never heard of Hulk being born like that. I've always seen it being a laboratory accident that he tries to correct. And Iron Man is also not a superhero because Tony Stark is only as strong/fast/"super" as his armor suit.

And about thinking Two-Face is still alive, well, I'm sure that in the comics he has a much longer run as a criminal. But I'm not claiming I've read all the comics--just enough to come to that conclusion. I just think that to confirm he was dead they would have shown his body at the funeral. They never showed Gordon's body because he wasn't actually dead, remember?

And have you guys seen all the rumors about the next movie? Johnny Depp might be Riddler, Angelina Jolie might be Catwoman, etc. Those are rumors, the producers probably haven't even decided on the next villain. But I don't think Angelina Jolie should be in any Batman/Dark Knight movies. Ever. Neither should Matt Damon--he was Christopher Nolan's first choice for Harvey Dent.
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#84 VACC

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 07:27 AM

The evident lack of comic book knowledge among those making, what they seem to consider deffinitive, statements angers me. I'm just gonna touch on what I've had the patience to read here. First of all, the Hulk was born with powers in the Ang Lee film, was given powers via his own experiment gone wrong in the television series and the new movie, and was caught in the blast of a "Gamma Bomb" as his origin in comic cannon. In many books Hulk is not a hero at all, but instead a force for other heros to contain. That rather rules out the super hero classification. Which brings me to my second point. While I would agree, Dark Knight is not a movie about a super hero in the way Nolan frames it, Batman is absolutely a superhero. I'm not sure where you got your deffinition of the term, but super strenght, flight, invulnerability...none of these are prerequisites. Joker has none of these things, would he not be a superVILLAIN? In fact, Lex fucking Luthor has no innate superhuman powers, is he not the penultimate supervillain for the quintesential superhero?

A superhero is simply a being who fights to protect the world, or a portion of it, from harm/evil. Are there any biological differences between a supermodel and a model? No, the supermodel is just better at her job. The same goes for a superhero. And since no one is better at what he does than batman (sorry logan), I'm pretty sure that qualifies.
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#85 Ambience 327

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 09:19 AM

The Shoveller: Lucille, God gave me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well.
Lucille: Honey, you shovel better than any man I've ever known, but that does not make you a super hero.



She was wrong, so VACC is right. :D

Edited by Ambience 327, 08 August 2008 - 09:20 AM.

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#86 Omega

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 04:52 PM

And since I don't need to tell you guys how great the movie is I will say this instead, The Dark Knight is NOT a superhero movie. Bruce Wayne has NO super powers. A superhero is one who was born with abilities that humans do not have, such as the X-Men or . I don't know what I'd call Spider-Man or Hulk but they weren't born super so I wouldn't say that they are superheroes.



Chanclas, I agree that it's not a superhero movie, but not for the reasons you said. The Hulk, Iron Man, Spider-Man- they're all superheroes, no doubt about it. It's not a superhero movie. The good superhero movies of recent years (Spider-Man 2, Iron Man) have followed a fairly standard plot structure: the superhero’s powers define not only his own moral code, but the framework of his nemesis. What takes place in the course of the story is the external projection of an internal struggle, until the superhero defeats his enemy in a fistfight symbolic of the overtaking of his own demons.


I find these two statements somehow controversial yet supporting of each other.
Chanclas, In the first hulk movie he was born a superhero. I haven't seen the new one so I don't know what happens, but I would suggest looking at the books or at least asking what happened in the original comics.

Omega, Doesn't batman face an internal struggle. Watch the first movie a couple more times and you will see where the basis of struggle begins. It starts off as he goes into the cave. There he becomes afraid of the bats. He goes though some time then his father tells about he is helping the city and how to care for others. Then his father is killed by one of the people he is trying to help. Bruce runs away with the thought that you cant trust anyone and you can only help yourself. As he travels he becomes accustomed to doing bad things in order to help others as shown with the apple and the kid. he inevitably becomes imprisoned. There he gets angry and vengeful. Here he decides to "Help others that can't help themselves". Eventually he goes to train with ras al ghool (however you spell it). There he learns how to fight. after the "accident" with his house Bruce decides to go home, wanting to "Help others that can't help themselves". To do this he "embodies his greatest fear". This continuous theme with the movie Is bound to give some sort of internal struggle.

I personally think there is two types of heroes. The ones that are in our minds, and are drawn on paper. And those true heroes, the ones in other countries fighting wars, and the ones patrolling our streets to keep us safe.


Congratulations.

Batman Begins was a superhero movie. I said that in the beginning of my post. It's the Dark Knight that's not a superhero movie. Batman is most certainly a superhero.

Comic book culture has been so cheapened by movies it's sickening. They should have a canon test before allowing a person into comic book movies.
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#87 Erin Jenna

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 07:34 PM

Movie CHANGED MY LIFE.

Except I was dumb and watched Brokeback Mountain right afterwards. Wow, what a character difference.

But still...I'll never look at other movies the same way again.
(I mean that about both Dark Knight and Brokeback, but for very different reasons.)

BEST MOVIE EVER.
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#88 Icespartan 1114

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 07:39 PM

Just have to say I saw it three times

Edited by Icespartan_1114, 05 September 2008 - 07:39 PM.

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#89 Ambience 327

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:23 AM

Movie CHANGED MY LIFE.


Why? Was it part of one "really bad day"?
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#90 Thomas

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 02:38 PM

I wasn't going to post or even read this thread again but I came across this.
It has me cracking up every time.

Dark Knight deleted scene.

I love watching the slow transfer from "somewhat understandable" batman to the "What the hell is he saying" throughout the skit.

2:30 is my favorite part.



Oh God, that was hilarious. Definitely one of the better spoofs I've seen.
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#91 HerbieHero

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 09:52 AM

I wasn't going to post or even read this thread again but I came across this.
It has me cracking up every time.

Dark Knight deleted scene.

I love watching the slow transfer from "somewhat understandable" batman to the "What the hell is he saying" throughout the skit.

2:30 is my favorite part.



Oh God, that was hilarious. Definitely one of the better spoofs I've seen.


Is it just me, or did they have really good costumes/makeup for what I presume were amateurs?
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#92 zaphodB

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 11:46 PM

Joker makeup is not hard to do. Posted Image
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#93 Split

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 12:52 PM

And batman costumes are really easy to find..
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Teehee.


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