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Sorry Stefan :(

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#26 Zero Talent

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 05:09 PM

What kind of wusses are nerfing today that need it softer. The only problem I've ever had was not feeling it through my clothes. If these people are too whimpy to take a unsoftened dart they shoudn't even bother nerfing at all.

Exactly! Which is why anyone who complains about getting shot with a frozen paintball is an idiot, because they shouldn't be playing paintball at all! Whoever designed a paintball to break when it hits a target should be shot.. With a frozen paintball!

...Anyways, I found I could get the foam fairly straight by using a hair dryer (As recommended by... I forget who, but I always traced it back to you, Stefan). Made a little box setup that uses the air flow from a hair dryer to cycle the foam and prevent melting, too. Though some of the little foam stubs retain a certain bit of bending, this can easily be corrected with a while it's still hot. I've found this technique to work a lot better than mechanical straightening, and be completely permanent. I'm using RCR brand foam backer rod (this technique works both on the old, light grey kind they had a few years back, as well as the new darker stuff).

I think I mentioned this, but I always just put a ~.5cm long disk of Foam Backer Rod (Hereafter referred to as "FBR"), that is one size smaller in diameter than the dart itself, on the tip with a little more hotglue. This tip comes off from time to time pending spread (and "m4d gr4nny hot gluing skillz"), but it's really cheap. For example, a 5/8" FBR dart would have a ~.5cm tip of 1/2" FBR.

PTEG as a material does kind of suck. If we just want a body, and don't really care about the barrel type or diameter of the dart, we could just work with... Oddly enough... A McDonald's or equivalent diameter straw, using 1/2" foam with an embedded weight as a tip. The obvious problem with this, aside from the larger tip's interference with clip setups, would be the small diameter. Which raises the actual point of this rambling; A new requirement for this new dart modification:

How large in diameter do we want these darts, bringing into account safety concerns?

A dart using 1/2" FBR can potentially take out an eye due to the localization of the same force of a larger dart [with the same mass] into a smaller area.

I know from experience, as a reference, that a Super Maxx 1500 with a single barrel, using a 1/2" FBR (~1/2" diameter tip), .5cm foam tipped Zero dart, managed to do substantial damage (and a week after medical observation, happily temporary) to a participant's eye through his eyelid from a range of about 30'. This rather tragic event implies that we need darts that are either larger or lighter.

Lighter is no problem; Hollow out the foam with a drill bit or straw to allow for a lighter tip weight. The decreased dart mass, however, decreases the range noticeably. In my unofficial trials with a Secret Shot 2 there was a range difference of about 17% going from a size 7 lead fishing weight to a single steel bb (A measured range of about 110' or so to about 90' or so unmeasured [compared against the heavier darts... Unofficial, as I said]).

Wider could lead to some fun. Imagine a 19mm round in a rather large homemade air rifle that can get ranges around 200'. Insane, right? But at the same time, with the large amount of padding and weight such a wide dart allows, safe. Of course, this brings aerodynamics into the equation, but that will be dealt with as that tangent is explored. The materials are certainly there.

Looking at the masses of darts and available materials, I'm still a big fan of just using shells, rather than building the shell into the dart.
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#27 Stefan

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 05:31 PM

Bringing back arrows would be badass...
I should try the hairdryer method some time. I remember saying something about it years ago (I believe I was parroting one of my site's R&D submissions) but never got around to it.
Your FBR "plug" is an excellent idea..
Is everybody still hollowing out portions of the FBR using a Brad point drill bit? Those really chew out the excess foam and leave a clean hole.. I think mine was 3/8" for 5/8" FBR.. If you were to buy 3/8" FBR and make the plugs out of that.. That would be an excellent fit for a 'bumper'.. Shit, if it protruded a bit you might get some aerodynamic benefit from it as well.

As to crying about people wanting to soften their darts:
You are not them. Maybe they don't want to get stung when they get hit. Maybe they play indoors at close quarters and don't want to lose an eye. Let it alone, this isn't a sanctioned tournament.
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#28 Spaztic 75

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 06:54 PM

Reasonable, but if you're indoors you shouldn't be using heavily modded guns anyway and if you're outside a softened dart would be hard to feel. If you made seperate darts for indoors & outdoors it would be a waste of money, much more expencive than a pair of sunglasses or saftey gogles for your eyes and a band-aid.
If someone can come up with a removable softener then they've got my attention.
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#29 Langley

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 07:08 PM

I definately like the arrow-sized dart idea. That sort of thing would need a larger weight in it, but the increased weight would be compensated for by the slowed velocity.


::Grabs "The Redeemer" and begins to attatch a 1" by 2.5' barrel::


Edit: At apoc this summer Gunned had an unmodded ultimator with him. The thing only gets like 40' arced or something, but he took the foam tip off so there's only this hot glue like stuff on the flat end. At some point during the attack defend mission, he shot my nephew with it in the face from long range. My nephew, who didn't see it at all, immediately shouted, "Did someone just throw their shoe at me!?!"

I know from experience, as a reference, that a Super Maxx 1500 with a single barrel, using a 1/2" FBR (~1/2" diameter tip), .5cm foam tipped Zero dart, managed to do substantial damage (and a week after medical observation, happily temporary) to a participant's eye through his eyelid from a range of about 30'. This rather tragic event implies that we need darts that are either larger or lighter.


What were you doing with a 1/2 Centemeter dart anyway? Half a centemeter is like the width of a size 7 weight.

If you are going to use something that small, you may as well fire a mega with a weight stuck in it that isn't glued.
(If you've never done this, try it just once. But don't ever fire it at a living thing. It essentially turns the gun into a BB gun, fireing the weight at 10x velocity. These are commonly refered to in the LGLF as "Langley is a dumbass" darts)
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#30 Jangadance

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:37 PM

I think I mentioned this, but I always just put a ~.5cm long disk of FBR that is one size smaller in diameter than the dart itself, on the tip with a little more hotglue. For example, a 5/8" FBR dart would have a ~.5cm tip of 1/2" FBR.
... I know from experience, as a reference, that a Super Maxx 1500 with a single barrel, using a 1/2" FBR (~1/2" diameter tip), .5cm foam tipped Zero dart, managed to do substantial damage...

I think he's talking about a 'head' of 1/2" FBR that is .5 centimeters in length, on the tip of his 5/8" Stefans. I don't think he means that the weight is .5 cms in width. ... Unless I am reading wrong? :unsure:
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#31 GunnedDown

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:50 PM

Edit: At apoc this summer Gunned had an unmodded ultimator with him. The thing only gets like 40' arced or something, but he took the foam tip off so there's only this hot glue like stuff on the flat end. At some point during the attack defend mission, he shot my nephew with it in the face from long range. My nephew, who didn't see it at all, immediately shouted, "Did someone just throw their shoe at me!?!"

Little one: Where's Bortko?
*picks up ultimator*
Little One: BORTKO!?!!?!
Twin: What?!??!
*BLAM*

I need to repair that missile. It actually came that way.. :(


I should make my own too :unsure:
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#32 Langley

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 09:48 PM

Oh. Wow. And it was right there in the quote too. Well then.........this just shows that zeros are dangerous and should be forbidden by law..........yeah....

Sorry about that.
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#33 Zero Talent

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 09:09 PM

I think he's talking about a 'head' of 1/2" FBR that is .5 centimeters in length, on the tip of his 5/8" Stefans.  I don't think he means that the weight is .5 cms in width.  ... Unless I am reading wrong?  :D

Actually, I'm talking about a .5cm long piece of 1/2" FBR that constitutes the padding of on the tip of my old Zero darts (Not quite 5/8" collar length, but not 1/2", so the tip works fine). Yes, Zero darts with size 7 lead weight tips can be rather dangerous in a really powerful air gun. So can anything with a size 7 lead weight, due to the mass. However, this is why I'm talking about lightening or widening the current dart (as well as why I avoided shooting my friends from close range with the more powerful air guns... Which I may have mentioned).

Stefan: Most kids are just lazy, and burn a hole in the back of their darts with a hot glue gun (thus it's only about 1/2" in, or however long their hot glue gun's metal tip is). Our resident Consonant Man did a test to see the the effect of these kinds of holes in darts of the same tip weight, and no notable effect was seen. However, I do know that hollowing out darts ( I just use a Wendy's straw and a twisting motion.. Cuts easily into foam, and easily cores out straight holes, unlike the drill bits I've tried ) lightens up the dart body, allowing for lighter tip wieghts while at the same time maintaining the proper dart balance for good accuracy. Again, however, unofficial. Considering the recent resurgance of Nerf kids in BC, I think I may do some actual tests. But Term Paper first.

Also, regarding clips, I forgot about a certain perspective. What about designing the clip/breech system specifically for soft darts? For example, back in the day I was fooling around with a single barreled breechloader system (sorry about.... Everything...), which, though mostly crap, worked off the idea of partitioning out the next dart from the others, for easy loading. Crushing darts together creates jamming, but a single dart can proceed through almost any breech setup flawlessly. I think that could be a lot cheaper than shells.. I just don't like what seems like reliance on mechanical motion for proper function. Of course, that's where air actuation comes in... But I've got nothing solid right now.
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#34 Nerfy BuNNy

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 05:26 PM

!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!! I just typed a really long thing and it was deleted somehow!

OKAY!!!! :angry:

There are many different types of material in this world that you can make darts out of. Like: FOAM, METAL, PLASTIC, and other. The one that I am focused on right now is "SLA".
It is like plastic, but is doesn't need to be melted to take shape. It is made in that form already. SLA, is liquid at first, you stick it in an SLA machine to get it shaped into something that you have designed in AUTOCAD. The information then transfers to the machine. The Liquid is then poured onto a tray and then a laser then cuts out the object that you created.

Information on what the material is:

Colors: Black, White, See Through, Blue, Green, Yellow, Red, Magenta etc.
Feeling: Like plastic

This material is fairly smooth. You can also use it for "BARRELS".

My father makes this, I am pretty sure they use SLA for the material name.
This is a very trusted material because Volkswagen asks my dad to make models for them, models for cell phones, sunglasses, faces, action figures, buildings etc.

If you want more information goto www.adsdyes.com

And I am uploading some pics on right now :D

HERE IS THE PIC:

www.geocities.com/nerfupload/SLA
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#35 Stefan

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 03:33 PM

SWEET!!!
The only thing I can see now is Rototrack chains of unlimited length..
Oh baby!
A completely replaceable Wildfiire barrel! No more reloading!
And if I were really interested in relearning ACAD, maybe new gun designs.. Holy crap this is great. What's the typical cost to get something done for a consumer?
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#36 Alexthebeast

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 06:05 PM

It might only be for mass-production.
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#37 Nerfy BuNNy

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Posted 03 November 2003 - 06:25 PM

SWEET!!!
The only thing I can see now is Rototrack chains of unlimited length..
Oh baby!
A completely replaceable Wildfiire barrel! No more reloading!
And if I were really interested in relearning ACAD, maybe new gun designs.. Holy crap this is great. What's the typical cost to get something done for a consumer?

Well, yes you can make designs of guns, you can make homemades with the whole nice looking shell around it, its very simple, you can make 2 halves that snap together etc.

I figure it wont be to expensive,

I am asking my dad today.

And I actually think it might be pretty cheap unless its a very large and complex design. For a cheaper price you should design it in autocad by yourself, if you do not know howto, I am not very sure how much it'll cost for the designer to design it for you.

What you will be paying for is.

The Resin Liquid that they use
The time and labor
Shipping

I am starting to learn A-Cad so when I get enough experience i'll try designing some models get some pics up etc.
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#38 Stefan

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 02:59 PM

ACAD is UGLY, man. It's one of those packages that's been around so long that the current version needs a specialist to master it.. And as such, you will pay a LOT to have someone design stuff for you.
Best learn it yourself. My dad is pretty good with it, so the designs aren't what's really concerning me.
BUT, since this is a large-scale operation, the question is: would your dad('s company) be willing to make a handful of small scale things?
I guarantee you it costs pennies to make stuff (assuming Nerf et al do something similar, which I believe they do), but the problem is the willingness of major wholesale operators to deal with the public. Alex is right there.
If it can be arranged, I'm sure it would be more or less free for Bunny to acquire the things we want, and then it's really only shipping and a "finder's fee" that we'd have to pay. This of course assumes Bunny wants to go to all the trouble of arranging everything.
I for one would love a bunch of chainblazer chains.
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#39 Alexthebeast

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:06 PM

Stefan, stop thinking simple. Why get Chain when we could make a new chain gun? Or PC clips?

I am thinking a bigass breech loading rifle, spring powered, with a 4" diamater plunger tube. Thas like, 200 feet with that much air.
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#40 Stefan

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 04:12 PM

You confuse simple with lazy.
Imagine how hot your brain will get while designing an entire weapon? Dear god, man.
It's one thing to use a rendering program and make a pretty 3d gun with light flares and the like.. But to geometrically describe every miniscule detail in the gun? That's every turn of a screw hole, every point where the plastics make contact, every rounded edge where barrels are seated, every notch where a trigger or rotation mechanism would go...
My god. It hurts just thinking about it.
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#41 GunnedDown

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 04:26 PM

!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!! I just typed  a really long thing and it was deleted somehow!

OKAY!!!!  :huh:

There are many different types of material in this world that you can make darts out of. Like: FOAM, METAL, PLASTIC, and other. The one that I am focused on right now is "SLA".
It is like plastic, but is doesn't need to be melted to take shape. It is made in that form already. SLA, is liquid at first, you stick it in an SLA machine to get it shaped into something that you have designed in AUTOCAD. The information then transfers to the machine. The Liquid is then poured onto a tray and then a laser then cuts out the object that you created.

Information on what the material is:

Colors: Black, White, See Through, Blue, Green, Yellow, Red, Magenta etc.
Feeling: Like plastic

This material is fairly smooth. You can also use it for "BARRELS".

My father makes this, I am pretty sure they use SLA for the material name.
This is a very trusted material because Volkswagen asks my dad to make models for them, models for cell phones, sunglasses, faces, action figures, buildings etc.

If you want more information goto www.adsdyes.com

And I am uploading some pics on right now :D

HERE IS THE PIC:

www.geocities.com/nerfupload/SLA

Sweet :) I smell advancement! I knew there were 3d-printers (succeh), but I have always wondered if there was a program/machine like that. I want one :)

Anyway I made this post to explain something -

I didn't want your focus to be on the soft end of the dart. I think some people got carried away with that. My primary focus was creating a dart that travels faster and farther, thus bringing nerf technology to a new level. In turn, another problem is created, and that is safety. If you have a dart that's traveling 2X as fast, it's going to hurt 2X as much. Putting 1/4 of an inch of FBR over a plastic nugget isn't going to kill you, nor will it not allow you to feel when you have been hit by any means.

An advancement in darts may mean an advancement in weapons. As of now, we're developing homeades that expell air at such an ungodly force our darts just blow the fuck up. That's not really good.

With this technology, we can create a fantastic dart. There was a nerfer who not too long ago came up with an ingenious shotgun dart design, in which the dart was quartered. Using the preciseness of CAD, we can improve something like this too.

The possibilites are endless. I'm glad to see Stefan is leading the charge :)
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#42 LDM

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 04:40 PM

I think GunnedDown is being misunderstood. All he really meant was a dart that could go farther. So all this foam-softening isn't necessarily necessary, I don't think.

EDIT: GunnedDown himself beat me to it.
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#43 sporkboyofjustice

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 05:57 PM

As far as I knew there was a similar process with two or more lasers, anyway you shoot the beams into the liquid and it solidifies. This is a high end prototyping technique from my understanding and due to the cost of the equipment a prototype can cost thousands of dollars. I think the special material was quite pricey as well due to it's special properties. Anyway I hope it does work out for you but I doubt it will be as cheap as you imagine.
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#44 GunnedDown

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 06:00 PM

As far as I knew there was a similar process with two or more lasers, anyway you shoot the beams into the liquid and it solidifies. This is a high end prototyping technique from my understanding and due to the cost of the equipment a prototype can cost thousands of dollars. I think the special material was quite pricey as well due to it's special properties. Anyway I hope it does work out for you but I doubt it will be as cheap as you imagine.

Right. That's the current 3-D printer.
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#45 Guest_LonE_FoX_*

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:01 PM

How can any ofus nerfers hate canadians when the whole reason we are able to produce ourowndarts is because of the genius of Stephan Mahr, a canadian, btwmaking stefans by hand really sucks, my vietnamese boys got too oldso i shot them hacked them up and buried them in different states hee hee , jk
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#46 Guest_LonE_FoX_*

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:06 PM

crap im sry abt the last post, i was reffering to the argumend between gunned down and sylent on he first page of this thread, i didnt know that it was split into pages once again sry
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#47 cxwq

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Posted 01 March 2004 - 10:25 PM

It's also four months old.
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#48 J cobbers

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 11:16 AM

How can any ofus nerfers hate canadians when the whole reason we are able to produce ourowndarts is because of the genius of Stephan Mahr, a canadian, btwmaking stefans by hand really sucks, my vietnamese boys got too oldso i shot them hacked them up and buried them in different states hee hee , jk

A few points for a new guy. First use the space bar, and don't use Chat speak, this is a BBS not a chat room, you've got plenty of time to make a clean post. Second, don't bring back old threads. By all means read them collect the bits of knowledge you may find but don't reply to them after we've all seen them. Finally don't make stupid jokes about the casual killings, not everyone here is from North America, and some of the coolest home made guns have come from some guy in Asia (don't currently remeber who or what country).

If you act civil you may get more respect than you deserve based on your first few posts .
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#49 Guest_LonE_FoX_*

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Posted 02 March 2004 - 04:55 PM

Ok sorry about the crap on the other post. I have a question on stefan making. Some people are telling me to put holes in the back with the tip of my glue gun (they claim that improves range) other people tell me not to. i read the guid by the lawngnome liberation front, but they drill theirs. so i need help.
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#50 Guest_Justin_*

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 09:14 PM

i dont like all this reading.:nugget:
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