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Sorry Stefan :(

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#1 GunnedDown

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Posted 25 October 2003 - 11:40 PM

As we speak, the staple dart of nerfers worldwide is the infamous Stefan homeade Dart, pioneered by the ... Stefan Mohr.. himself. Ironic is the timing, but I've been thinking.

The problem with our current darts is that they don't do their job. The reason they are foam is to not kill the person you shoot.... except there is hot glue on the end that hits the person... negating the purpose of the foam.

So, what I'm proposing, is that we somehow invert the current structure of our dart. This would mean the body of the dart would be some sort of variable weight/size, low friction and solid material, whilst the head is made of foam.

I think with rigid body darts, a lot of problems with homeades will be solved (no need for shells).

I'm not really sure what we'd use for the dart body, I've been thinking crayola lids, but you can't really get a bunch of those like FBR. I do think the head would be constructed of 3 to 4/8 in. foam, with the weighting between the piece of foam and the lightweight body. If any one knows of cyllindric lightweight objects (plastic = good), post so ... particularly if it can fit the size of our current barrels or come damn close. Maybe some sort of cheap plastic caps in a bag? :wacko:

Although our current darts are great, work fine, and are pretty damn good, I just think it hampers a lot of things in mods, gun abilities, homeades, and the future of nerf. It might be an idea of the future... but the future is right around the corner.
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#2 Sylent Blade

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 01:08 AM

I like your thinking, but I must say, you'd have to convince a whole lot of people to help you with your "revolution".

I don't think it can be done... I mean, replaceing foam with plastic? You would have no fit at all in the barrel, there wouldn't be a seal. You should have thought of that my friend.

Yeah, it won't work, no matter how perfect it sounds... and I really would pay to see you try to find something worth making a new "dart" out of... ha, marker lids, that would be just great. :wacko: (sense sarcasim?)

Have fun trying to make a new dart... and if you succeed, you Gunneddown might be the next most famous Nerf inventor, and people all around will cream their pants when they hear or read your name... Doesn't that sound enticeing?
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#3 Jangadance

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 02:06 AM

Sylent, chill out honky. You don't need to have an airtight seal with air pressure guns, since they release all of their pressure quickly. Read cxwq's Darts and Barrel Materials 101. A standardized size of smooth plastic would be nice, I bet it would be more aerodynamic than foam. Just thinking of a weighted crayola lid careening down a barrel makes me sweat. :lol:

In general, it would be nice to see some more engineering in the area of darts- the foam is really only there in air pressure guns to stabilize it in flight, I think. The tip is what carries it through the air. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about if you've tried firing a piece of virgin FBR. FBR is nice because it is cheap and standardized in size and shape. But if someone finds an alternate material that works better, hey, sweet deal.

I agree that foam tips would be a good call. But, one of the nicest things about Stefans though, is how easy they are to mass produce. I mean, Nerf had a production line in their favour, all I have is 3 prepubescent Vietnamese boys that I keep in my basement and force-feed FBR. Adding a foam tip to each dart would be little bit of a hassle, but it would pay off in that people wouldn't be so afraid to get hit by my guns... You'd still need some sort of weighted part at the front of the dart, I would imagine; behind the foam (FBR...?) tip. For some sort of physics reason or another.

Okay, now it's someone else's turn.
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#4 Ares

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 09:36 AM

I've been thinking about using these empty lightweight rifle shells that fit perfectly into 1/2" PVC that I found in mass at a gun club, you could stick foam in them as a tip, though if the dart flipped, it would hurt like the devil. Might use them with older kids UNLIKE my neighbors and/or target shooting of o ever do..or long-range.whatever. It would work. I'll try it out.
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#5 Sylent Blade

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 11:05 AM

Sylent, chill out honky. You don't need to have an airtight seal with air pressure guns, since they release all of their pressure quickly.


I mean, Nerf had a production line in their favour, all I have is 3 prepubescent Vietnamese boys that I keep in my basement and force-feed FBR.
Okay, now it's someone else's turn.

Chill out honky? Well, okay... I was just stating the obvious. I would be just so much work to make the change, and then mass produce, like you said.

And about the 3 boys in your basement, I've been missing my 3 prepubescent Vietnamese boys for about 3 weeks now, and I have reason to believe you took them... they always fall for the basket of kittens. :lol:
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#6 GunnedDown

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 11:30 AM

Sylent, chill out honky. You don't need to have an airtight seal with air pressure guns, since they release all of their pressure quickly. Read cxwq's Darts and Barrel Materials 101. A standardized size of smooth plastic would be nice, I bet it would be more aerodynamic than foam. Just thinking of a weighted crayola lid careening down a barrel makes me sweat. :lol:

In general, it would be nice to see some more engineering in the area of darts- the foam is really only there in air pressure guns to stabilize it in flight, I think. The tip is what carries it through the air. I'm sure you know what i'm talking about if you've tried firing a piece of virgin FBR. FBR is nice because it is cheap and standardized in size and shape. But if someone finds an alternate material that works better, hey, sweet deal.

I agree that foam tips would be a good call. But, one of the nicest things about Stefans though, is how easy they are to mass produce. I mean, Nerf had a production line in their favour, all I have is 3 prepubescent Vietnamese boys that I keep in my basement and force-feed FBR. Adding a foam tip to each dart would be little bit of a hassle, but it would pay off in that people wouldn't be so afraid to get hit by my guns... You'd still need some sort of weighted part at the front of the dart, I would imagine; behind the foam (FBR...?) tip. For some sort of physics reason or another.

Okay, now it's someone else's turn.

Well said.

The key isn't aerodynamics. It's barrel friction. Although I wouldn't doubt the aerodynamics of a rigid semiprefabricated structure are superior to that of one not so.. rigid...

Ares - Those things sound really cool. The best thing to do would be to put weights beneath the foam head, so the dart doesn't invert.

This project would take a lot of experimental work and good hunting.

If we are to find a suitable substitute, we will be able to spend less time constructing the darts. Why? No more FBR cutting... straightening.. the only thing we need to do is cut wee pieces of FBR and slap a weight behind it.

Don't doubt marker caps. They're a bit loose but they fly. Don't doubt it son.

I appreciate your comments, Janga. I appreciate your information as well, Ares. Sylent Blade, shut the fuck up.
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#7 Sylent Blade

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:16 PM

Um? Well, what ever... you are just a dumbfuck who takes pleasure in trying to put down others. I really don't think telling me to shut the fuck up was necessary, but what is done is done, however fucked up it was to begin with. All I was doing was stating my opinion, but I guess to you Americans, Canadian opinions are worthless, and are best kept to ourselves... it's really too bad.
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#8 Groove

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:31 PM

... it's really too bad.

Yeah, I guess it is, slick. :lol:
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#9 GunnedDown

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:44 PM

Um? Well, what ever... you are just a dumbfuck who takes pleasure in trying to put down others. I really don't think telling me to shut the fuck up was necessary, but what is done is done, however fucked up it was to begin with. All I was doing was stating my opinion, but I guess to you Americans, Canadian opinions are worthless, and are best kept to ourselves... it's really too bad.

You're a dumbfuck who doesn't know how to think before he speaks. I do think the shut the fuck up was necessary.

If you want something that's fucked up, insulting my nation as a whole and then attacking me with individually disagreeing with your opinion makes me a canadian-hater is something that is. If I hated you for being Canadian, I would have said so. I hold absoultely nothing against canadians... except for canadian bacon..
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#10 Sylent Blade

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:57 PM

What ever man, your words have no bearing on my life. Your attempts to flame me would work better on a wall or something.

Canadian Bacon was a hilarious movie, and I never said that you were a Canadian-hater, don't put words in my mouth, fuckcracker.

I have no idea why you must continually say this shit about me, in the end, all you are doing is trying to impress the others, and because you are an older member, it's probably working... but for what?

Give it up, I fucking apologized for saying "your country sucks ass" and said it sucked ass because Bush was president. The United States of America is a great place, my mom was born in Buffalo, and I lived there for half a year. Theres nothing wrong with the U.S., except the presence of Bush.
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#11 Ragornocks

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 05:12 PM

Back off of the America/Canada debate...

A Crayola Lid fits into 19/32" Brass perfectly. Add hot glue and a weight at the end, and it fires over 1.4 times farther than a stefan in a Max Shot. Tried and true, a while ago, due to boredom. Blah.
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#12 Zero Talent

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 05:47 PM

I have no idea why you must continually say this shit about me, in the end, all you are doing is trying to impress the others, and because you are an older member, it's probably working... but for what?

Give it up, I fucking apologized for saying "your country sucks ass" and said it sucked ass because Bush was president. The United States of America is a great place, my mom was born in Buffalo, and I lived there for half a year. Theres nothing wrong with the U.S., except the presence of Bush.

I was always under the impression that we Canadians didn't start wars so eagerly.

So, onto the dart. Who here likes two different sizes of PTEG? I'm not sure what sizes would fit in what kinds of barrels, but given the variability of measure offered by the companies selling it, we could always fall back on a PTEG barrel with PTEG-bodied darts. However, if this is perhaps too expensive (due to the minimum size of orders), perhaps we can use the foam tip which would theoretically fit inside the front PTEG tube, containing a weight pointing towards the back (think a 1cm stefan of 1/2" or smaller FBR pushed in, with no hole in the back, and the foam end constituting the front of the dart), as the seal, by simply using two types of foam backer rod (one smaller for inside the PTEG body, one outside for seal), or just really "stuffing" the foam into the PTEG.

But then we fall back to the simplicity of basic Stefan darts. Because if we want a foam tip on a plastic dart, that means two different operations (for two different materials), as opposed to the Stefan dart's one.

I still like the idea of using shells in clips. If anything, it would just look cooler to see shells flying from the side of a barrel.
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#13 Langley

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 07:13 PM

The foam isn't nessisarily to soften the impact. Hell, on hasbro's darts, they don't tip them with foam, they tip them with rubber. The foam is only there to make contact with the barell, and to be lighter than the weighted part of the dart, slowing the dart down a bit and forceing it to fly straight.
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#14 Jangadance

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 09:35 PM

Yeah, and Nerf also didn't weigh down their darts with pieces of metal. :rolleyes:

I don't like the idea of PETG darts. We can find another substitute with a standardized size that you *don't* have to order online.

I have a problem thinking of Nerf shells since we have to make each shell by hand... Though it is a cool thought to see foam flying and shells being ejected from the gun.

I'm not sure, the very principle of Nerf seems to be the foam ammunition. It has got to have some foamage somewhere, or I ain't touchin' it. ... Well, maybe just as sharpshooter rounds. :blush:
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#15 GunnedDown

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 09:36 PM

What ever man, your words have no bearing on my life. Your attempts to flame me would work better on a wall or something.

Canadian Bacon was a hilarious movie, and I never said that you were a Canadian-hater, don't put words in my mouth, fuckcracker.

I have no idea why you must continually say this shit about me, in the end, all you are doing is trying to impress the others, and because you are an older member, it's probably working... but for what?

Give it up, I fucking apologized for saying "your country sucks ass" and said it sucked ass because Bush was president. The United States of America is a great place, my mom was born in Buffalo, and I lived there for half a year. Theres nothing wrong with the U.S., except the presence of Bush.

A: Then don't act like they do.
B: Canadian Bacon kicked ass. I'm talking about the food.
C: You implied that what I stated meant that canadian's opinions didn't matter, the best way that I found to summarize that would be a "canadian hater".
D: I impress no one. I'm trying to get you to stop acting like such a fool, and unfortunately I end up acting like one myself in the process. It's really the only way to stop ignorance.
E: Thank you.
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#16 Alexthebeast

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 11:10 PM

But GD, we have webbies, and they are basiclly cushined at the front, as well as the not-as-well-known Hurley darts and Beast darts are both cushined too.
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#17 GunnedDown

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 10:00 PM

I know we have webbies. You're forgetting friction :)
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#18 NerfManiac

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Posted 28 October 2003 - 10:30 PM

>Gets some soda and popcorn and watches the ongoing "sylent blade is a dumbfuck debate."<
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#19 Nello

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 01:08 AM

ummm, i'm not sure about this, but one might be able to use vinyl tubing to make the body of the dart. Although it is a bit soft and if one buys it off of a roll it would be rather difficult to straighten, it is reasonably cheap. i'll have to try it out.
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#20 Sylent Blade

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 07:29 AM

>Gets some soda and popcorn and watches the ongoing "sylent blade is a dumbfuck debate."<

Where the hell might you be watching that? Dumbass, it's fucking over... the bloody thread has been locked for 3 days, and nobody has said anything... christ, use your eyes, and some brain cells.
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#21 Jangadance

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 02:31 PM

Yeah, I don't know what he's talking about either... A debate requires 2 sides. Right now, you are only antagonizing yourself. Just chill out and stop bringing the heat down around your ears. And let's not pollute this thread with border hostility. Thank you.
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#22 Stefan

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 02:39 PM

B: Canadian Bacon kicked ass. I'm talking about the food.


YOU TAKE THAT BACK OR I'LL EAT YOUR FUCKING HEAD! (Get your head out of the gutter)

Onto darts:
I still think foam is a perfect material more or less for the reasons given here: it compresses and expands to seal a barrel fairly well. There are 2 types of FBR that I've seen. One of them actually has a plastic 'skin' and seems to seal in more air. The second is open cell foam on the outside and isn't as great.
The BIG downside to FBR is that it's coiled and you can never get it geometrically straight. Sure, you can bend it pretty well, but it'll always be a little askew and for that your accuracy suffers.

As for softening the impact:
I dunno about you guys, but i always melted out a fairly deep hole and dropped the BB/glue in there.. Most of my darts had at least a 1/8" foam lip on the outside. That should dampen a bit of the impact, especially if it's not colliding with an eyeball or testicle. And if your guns are that heavily modded that it will draw blood, maybe the tips aren't the issue.
I also bought felt "feet" (You know those sticky things you put under furniture so that you don't scrape the floor when you move it?) and stuck them onto my darts but they were expensive and never stayed on very well. A little exploration into that area might be fruitful.

As to straightening FBR:
I had considered buying a length of PVC that had the same inside diameter as the FBR had outside diameter (ie. a really really long barrel) and cutting it lengthwise. Then you could put in a length of uncut FBR (say, 10" or whatever) and heat the entire piece of PVC with a hairdryer or something.. I'm wondering if the heat would change the state of the foam slightly to encourage it to hold its form.

As to other materials:
Like what? FBR is the obvious material because it IS what Nerf et al use. But if you want to get away from that.. Man, the world is your oyster. Anything cylindrical will work, especially since fhqwhgads (Cxwq) has these crazy barrel mods out there where the barrel can be customized to work with the ammo (instead of vice versa, which is what I worked with when I initially did the darts).
That opens up a can of worms about developing a standard type of wars, but in the end it could be very interesting.

[Edit:]
I was just thinking about those shitty little pop guns you can buy in chinatown.. What about using cork for the darts (or at least the exterior surface)?
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#23 Langley

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 02:56 PM

Heh. You could try using 17/32 brass for ammo in guns with 9/16 barrels.

...but i always melted out a fairly deep hole and dropped the BB/glue in there.. Most of my darts had at least a 1/8" foam lip on the outside...


I used to do that, before I started nerfing with people who I hadn't introduced to nerf myself (Like the LCM and the Horsemen) All of them seem to have a flat glue surface on their darts. Besides, when you do that lip thing, the weights come out more easily, and if our darts had that, I think we would have more of a problem knowing weather or not we get hit.

Where would nerf be if we didn't have the satisfying SMACK noise you get when you nail someone on the back of their head?
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#24 Spaztic 75

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 03:22 PM

What kind of wusses are nerfing today that need it softer. The only problem I've ever had was not feeling it through my clothes. If these people are too whimpy to take a unsoftened dart they shoudn't even bother nerfing at all. As for the fbr bend problem I usually stick them in a spare piece of pvc for a couple of days, it fixes the bend and compresses the darts slightly so they fly out faster.
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#25 Stefan

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 05:00 PM

What kind of wusses are nerfing today that need it softer. The only problem I've ever had was not feeling it through my clothes. If these people are too whimpy to take a unsoftened dart they shoudn't even bother nerfing at all. As for the fbr bend problem I usually stick them in a spare piece of pvc for a couple of days, it fixes the bend and compresses the darts slightly so they fly out faster.

Try modding your guns properly then.
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