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#51 merlinski

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 12:58 PM

I'd love to see you spend that much money and get a car as luxurious, fast, and all around as enjoyable as a 120k mercedes. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that that is bullshit. I see enough cars and "project" cars everyday to know that there is only so much you can do to a car to make it better. If you go out and buy a honda civic and drop $50k into it, it is still a honda at the end of the day.


The only thing I'd say here about the Infinity Kappa series is becareful. I have hooked up a few systems that were all Infinity (my GFs car, for example, is all Infinity Kappa Perfect with Infinity amps and an Alpine head unit), and let me tell you those damn speakers are quite sensitive. If the proper air space and a certain level of air seal isn't present they can be a real bitch. That whole thing about rear speakers taking on low frequencies is some wierd thing that a lot of people think is true... I don't understand it. If you put the same speakers in your front and rear, they both do the same thing... and your rear speakers really don't matter at all anyway. More than 60% of what you hear comes from your front speakers and if you have subwoofers why do you need speakers to handle low ranges? The guys who win the nationwide sound quality comps every year have two speakers and a subwoofer in their car, that's it. Alpine is the shit, agreed. Also, your amps make all the difference in sound quality. They are just as important as the rest of the equipment in the system. Your whole system is only as good as the weakest link... if you bought $20 RCA interconnect cables, then your entire system is only as good as your $20 RCA interconnects. Rockford, btw, generally rates ther numbers a bit higher then they are capable of performing.

If I take a Mazda RX-7, swap a Toyota 3.0L V6 into it, and drop about 4-5k into the standard engine mods, I'll have a car with more power than a Mercedes SL600, that weighs 1500 pounds less, and has a better front/rear weight distribution. At the end of the day its still a mazda, but it'll still outperform anything you can throw at it. By saying "it's still a honda", you're just another one of those people who thinks brand name actually matters. If you want to judge based on the jokers who think that putting an AEM cold air intake and a "Greddy" decal on their civic makes their car nice, go ahead.

Regarding rear speakers:
They do get a lower portion of the sound. But the sound that they do get is heavily balanced towards the lower frequency range. If you have the same speakers front and rear, and you fade the music from the back towards the front, there is a noticable difference in the frequency balance you hear. The head unit I've tried this with was made by Alpine, so it's obviously a deliberate effect. I agree that rear speakers aren't necessary, but if I have some perfectly good speakers sitting around collecting dust then there's absolutely no harm in using them.

Obviously amps make a difference in sound quality, but when you look at the major respectable brands there's very little difference between, say, a Rockford Fosgate amp or an MTX amp. Go to any car audio board and ask them "what amp should I buy" and you'll either get 20 different answers or you'll get a lecture on how it really doesn't make that much of a difference. Obviously if you buy a $20 wal-mart amp it'll suck, but once you get to less than .1% THD it won't matter because the speakers will give you much more distortion than that. You're right about the weakest link of a system mattering, but a good amp is a stronger link than great speakers.

About Rockford amps, you're absolutely wrong. Every amp they sell comes with a "birth certificate" with the stats from when it was tested after it came out of the factory. The tested power is always higher than the product line's rated power. For example, I bought a Rockford 700S that was rated at 700 Watts, but when tested it produced 859. I asked around a lot and that's the norm rather than the exception.
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#52 Groove

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:23 PM

I see enough cars and "project" cars everyday to know that there is only so much you can do to a car to make it better.  If you go out and buy a honda civic and drop $50k into it, it is still a honda at the end of the day.

I couldn't fucking agree more.

I think some people are getting confused between the meaning and expression associated with their respected modes of transportation, and the inherent simplicity in function (not mechanical, but simply "a device gets me from point A to point B, and I like it" mentality) that several people hold regard for their own.

I drive an '01 Jeep Cherokee, which sadly is no longer in production, but still a kickass ride. It's got a tiny ass 15 gallon gas tank, and it gets horrible gas mileage. But you know what? I fucking love it. The only thing I've invested money on it was to give it a new roof, rear gate and doors after Hurricane Isabel turned it into a convertable, aside from regular maintenance which I pretty much do myself. It gets me where I need to be - it might not the most fuel efficient ride, but hey, we've got history. It's a Jeep thing.

And it seems to be a trend that whenever Talio realizes I'm right, he falls back on the fact that I don't post anywhere but in off topic. Since last time we got into this conversation we wasted a perfectly good topic, I'll keep it short. I admit I don't use the board for anything but off-topic anymore, which is why I post in the forum www.offtopic.com more than I post here. The reason I'm here was originally nerf, but I've sorta gotten out of it. So does that make my opinion on non-nerf topics any less valid?

It's not so much an issue or right or wrong, I think it's conflict of ideas. And to answer your question, Mer ~ because of the fact you pretty much post here sporadically and a very large majority of the posts are in Off-Topic in a Nerf Forum (and several posts just spur arguments in several cases) doesn't necessarily make your points less valid to the readers, I think it's safe to assume that most of us probably just don't give a shit.

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#53 xedice

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:39 PM

And the guys who pimp out Hondas. Don't even get me started. Maddox put it best. If you're going to buy a shitty car, and put alot of money into it, why didn't you just buy a better car?

I see enough cars and "project" cars everyday to know that there is only so much you can do to a car to make it better.  If you go out and buy a honda civic and drop $50k into it, it is still a honda at the end of the day.

You buy a crappy old sports car for $3000 and $17000 in power adders, its gonna be faster than any $20000 car out there. Period.
You guys try to dis putting money into low performance cars to make them better. How bout I dis all of you for spending money making nerf guns better?
"Haha, you guys spend money trying to make shitty nerf guns better, why don't you just go buy an airsoft or paintball gun?"
I find it ironic.

And to answer your question, Mer ~ because of the fact you pretty much post here sporadically and a very large majority of the posts are in Off-Topic in a Nerf Forum (and several posts just spur arguments in several cases) doesn't necessarily make your points less valid to the readers, I think it's safe to assume that most of us probably just don't give a shit.

What we don't give a shit about is junk like this and talio's in this kind of thread. So what if merlinski posts more in off-topic, his posts in this thread were interesting to read for me personally, and could be for others as well. So no, it's not safe to assume sir.

I still won't say what kind of car I drive, because it doesn't matter.

Why are you even posting in this thread then. I think I remember the topic being "Your Ride?", but I am not sure. Maybe someone could back me up there.

Edited by xedice, 25 April 2005 - 01:51 PM.

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#54 merlinski

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 02:12 PM

Werd to Xedice for pointing out the hypocrisy inherent to that attitude. It's pretty sad that on a site so dedicated to modifying relatively cheap toys into more potent and enjoyable weapons, there is so much hostility towards people who want to do the same thing with their cars.
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#55 cxwq

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 02:54 PM

Modification is the essence of the hacker mentality. I don't personally get off on modding my cars but I respect those who do. If I had turned 16 before computers were mainstream (and I very nearly did) I probably would have spent a lot more time geeking around in the garage and a lot less time geeking around at my desk.
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#56 Terminator

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:11 PM

Ash, you took the words right out of my mouth.

If you go out and buy a honda civic and drop $50k into it, it is still a honda at the end of the day.


It really is just a battle of personal taste one way or the other. You get people saying they dont care what care they drive, others say they pollute the enviroment but still have a car, and yet others love what they drive because that's what kind of people they are.

I'm gonna' be one of those people who say that they like cars that are fast and elegant. I will never buy a crappy car and "suup it up" I would rather buy a wrangler for the same base price.

And as I said, matter of taste. This happens to be my taste, and If you are different I'm sure me and everyone else would love to hear it.

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#57 ItalionStallion

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 03:47 PM

IS, that really wasn't shot toward you, I'm sorry if you took it that way, this just happens to be a specific vice I have.

Im sorry dude. I just thought it would be a fun conversation to find out what everyone here drives.

Personally, i think my car is my favorite item. Its not that it "represents me" "is my expression" its just something that i like a whole lot and really enjoy. I would find it MUCH more enjoyable to play around with my car as opposed to my computer or a Nerf gun.

I honestley can't wait to save up my money to get some parts on my car. Its something that for me, makes working seem worthwile.

Edited by ItalionStallion, 25 April 2005 - 03:50 PM.

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#58 Nerforbust

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 04:10 PM

I hate to, but I agree with Talio, I'm no envirmentalist or whatever, after I die, I donít care if trees go extinct, or the chickens grow scales, or if the world is invaded by aliens and they force humans into slavery after I die, I will be dead, and if the earth dies, I am not affected. I canít drive yet, but when I do, I will get a hybrid car, to save money on gas. I think all cars are hideous blocks of metal on wheels.


You buy a crappy old sports car for $3000 and $17000 in power adders, its gonna be faster than any $20000 car out there. Period.


Please tell me, this car that can go 600 MPH, what is the point of it? You cannot legally go that fast.

Edited by Nerforbust, 25 April 2005 - 04:13 PM.

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#59 Ash

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 05:00 PM

If I take a Mazda RX-7, swap a Toyota 3.0L V6 into it, and drop about 4-5k into the standard engine mods, I'll have a car with more power than a Mercedes SL600, that weighs 1500 pounds less, and has a better front/rear weight distribution.  At the end of the day its still a mazda, but it'll still outperform anything you can throw at it.  By saying "it's still a honda", you're just another one of those people who thinks brand name actually matters.  If you want to judge based on the jokers who think that putting an AEM cold air intake and a "Greddy" decal on their civic makes their car nice, go ahead.


Ok, it will go fast and take turns nicely, but it still isn't as "Luxurious" as a $120k Mercedes, I'm sorry. And yes, the brand does matter. Do you know how Mazda sells their cars cheap but they seem like they should cost more? They cut corners at all the places your average customer won't notice. All of you interior controls and such are still mechanical rather than electronic, there are still vaccum lines everywhere, there are still tension cords everywhere. So yeah, when you do your engine swap and shit, it is still a Mazda, because all of the car was engineered by Mazda/Ford, not just the engine. Go ahead and yank apart the interior of one of those things and see what it looks like inside then go compare that to a BMW or a Mercedes or some shit. Let me just say you can tell the difference. Rather than argue with about it all, just get your car, do the swap and then come back to me once you have taken it to the track and tell me what it gets in the 1/4 mile. Alos, there are plenty of cars I can "throw at it" that will outperform it... not all of them are reasonably priced, but they will outperform it... of course this is where your point comes in that "for the price" etc etc etc... and I agree. However, it's still gonna ride like the car it is, not the car it wants to be.


Regarding rear speakers:
They do get a lower portion of the sound.  But the sound that they do get is heavily balanced towards the lower frequency range.  If you have the same speakers front and rear, and you fade the music from the back towards the front, there is a noticable difference in the frequency balance you hear.  The head unit I've tried this with was made by Alpine, so it's obviously a deliberate effect.



This is the part where I get to see how little you know about what your talking about. No, it is not a deliberate effect. It depends on the car. If you have speakers in the rear deck, they will get more bass because there is more airspace behind it. Plain and simple. If they are in the doors in the front and the back, you will see that they sound identical. Also, keep in mind that bass frequencies travel slower than any other frequency (unless you have a higher-end Alpine with Time Correction) so sometimes the "bass lag" will actually make it sound like more bass is being produced because it is coming milliseconds after the rest of the frequencies which are all hitting at the same time. The airspace is really where the extra bass comes from in rear decks, however. Also, when sound waves bounce off of glass, those soundwaves are going to sound louder, so it's yet another effect that can come from having rear speakers, but only in specific cars.

Obviously amps make a difference in sound quality, but when you look at the major respectable brands there's very little difference between, say, a Rockford Fosgate amp or an MTX amp.  Go to any car audio board and ask them "what amp should I buy" and you'll either get 20 different answers or you'll get a lecture on how it really doesn't make that much of a difference.  Obviously if you buy a $20 wal-mart amp it'll suck, but once you get to less than .1% THD it won't matter because the speakers will give you much more distortion than that.  You're right about the weakest link of a system mattering, but a good amp is a stronger link than great speakers.


There are lots of differences, actually. Rockford and MTX are both considered second rate amps to most car audio enthusiasts, so yeah, they may seem rather similiar. The newer MTX amps may break that trend since they are now using extant components (another company owned by Mitech) which may improve the sound quality and performance, but I have yet to try them out. If you look at the newer CEA 2005 specs you will see much larger differences between the companies now since they are almost impossible to fudge. Before that, however, amp companies didn't really have to publish how they got the results, just that the amp was capable of all the things listed. Now of course, it does make a difference if you are talking about your sub amp or your interior amp (4channel or 2channel amps). On a subwoofer the sound quality is not affected nearly as much by the amp as it would be with a 4channel amp. The subwoofer has such a limited frequency range that it's rather hard to actually make an impact on the sound quailty other than how quiet the amp can be and how little the frequencies overlap. Other things that are different depending on your amp is the cooling (because some amps overheat and go into protection mode much quicker than others), the on-board crossovers, and wether the amp is analog or digital. You will find that the newer all digital amps have a much higher level of sound quailty than the analog amps out there. Granted, I still have an analog amp myself, but the newer all digital amps are very impressive. Oh, and BTW, less than .1%THD really isn't that great... most of the amps I own are below .01%.

About Rockford amps, you're absolutely wrong.  Every amp they sell comes with a "birth certificate" with the stats from when it was tested after it came out of the factory.  The tested power is always higher than the product line's rated power.  For example, I bought a Rockford 700S that was rated at 700 Watts, but when tested it produced 859.  I asked around a lot and that's the norm rather than the exception.


Actually, no, I am not wrong about rockford. Look at how those amps are tested on those sheets... they aren't the most honest numbers around. Often times the amps are capable of doing those numbers for very short amounts of time, or even once out of the several times they test it. They will test an amp several times and simply pick out the best numbers to write down. I might also add that I have seen rockford amps tested to see how close they actually get to those numbers and they are usually quite hard to achieve. If I remember correctly, those numbers are tested at 14.4 volts, as well, which most cars aren't capable of achieving without an upgraded alternator. I know one of the companies prints a 14.4v number and a 12v number on their sheets, though, and I don't remember who that is. Also, Rockford isn't the best for heat management.
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#60 GeneralPrimevil

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 05:17 PM

Kinda older but I jsut had to say something, even though it was pretty well covered.

I'd love to see you spend that much money and get a car as luxurious, fast, and all around as enjoyable as a 120k mercedes. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that that is bullshit. I see enough cars and "project" cars everyday to know that there is only so much you can do to a car to make it better. If you go out and buy a honda civic and drop $50k into it, it is still a honda at the end of the day.

The only thing that we bought for my dad's Bronco was rims. Everything else we made with scraps. $500 for the truck, $450 for the rims, $30 for bandages. Do the math for the total price. Way less than $10K yet could tow any other vehicle almost anywhere because we culdn't get it to fly to the moon. We've pulled out a few Hummer H2s, a few Hummer H1s, and a few Humvees in terrain from sand dunes to mud bogs. A few of those Mercedes SUVs over the summer also. At the end of the day, sure it was still a Ford, but it performed better than the expensive shit. It just depends on the driver. Yes I know he was talking about PP cars, no offense.

Personal opinion here, but there has been way to much conflict in this thread. I thought it would be interesting to see what people here drove. Unfortunately some people have been too closed minded on these boards to realize they are being complete dumbasses. Just reread xedice's post and you'll see what I'm talkinng about.
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#61 Terminator

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 05:30 PM

GeneralPrimevil, those Mercedes Benz's you were talking about are the G-Wagons, short for Gelaendenwagen. They start at $80,000 and are (IN MY OPINION) not worth it. Granted they can get to 60 in under ten seconds and have a massive engine it's not exactly stylin' per se. It is more of a car that people own to say "YEA I GOT A SHIT LOAD OF MONEY, AND I'M A SNOB BUT I CAN AFFORD 10 MPG".

And from what you said they dont do well in sand dunes either.

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#62 Dan Wask

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 05:45 PM

Drive me a 1985 honda dirtbike. 80cc of raw power. I was doing 55 on a straightaway. 1 up 4 down, this thing sounds badass and the tank has a rather nice paintjob on it.

1 up four down ? That doesn't sound correct. I think you mean 1 down four up. Unless you put the shift forks in upside down...

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Edited by Dan Wask, 25 April 2005 - 05:53 PM.

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#63 Bad Karma

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:29 PM

Actually, in light of this topic I found it ironic that this happened over the weekend.... Just because someone has a nice car doesn't mean they are rich. My friend found that out the hard way. There was this guy at a cookout that I went too. He had a '67 mustang that had been fixed up really nice. Great sound system and everything. One of the girls made a comment about how she wished she had rich parents that could buy her a car like that. She said it in ear shot of this guy. He was a little hurt, later we found out why. Come to find out later that he got to buy the car when his dad died in an accident at work. That was some settlement money that his mom gave him. It was his dad's dream to have a fixed up classic...So he fixed one up in memory of his dad...His dad was an auto mechanic who made only $25,000 a year for a family of five.

I wish more guys where that thoughtful...


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#64 merlinski

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:31 PM

Rather than argue with about it all, just get your car, do the swap and then come back to me once you have taken it to the track and tell me what it gets in the 1/4 mile. Alos, there are plenty of cars I can "throw at it" that will outperform it... not all of them are reasonably priced, but they will outperform it... of course this is where your point comes in that "for the price" etc etc etc... and I agree. However, it's still gonna ride like the car it is, not the car it wants to be.


Ok, I have seen, both in videos and in person, 1986 Buick Grand Nationals pulling down 10 second 1/4 miles. Cars that have $10k put into them. And there are street legal supras that run 8s and 9s. Give me a car made by any company that can outperform that. Hell, you said you'd give me plenty that will outperform it. Give me a single car I can buy from Mercedes, BMW, or Ferrari. Or even McClaren or Bugatti. You can't, the fastest Ferrari is the Enzo, and that only runs a 11.20 1/4 mile. Its possible to achieve things in your own garage that those other companies can't. And regarding the ride. If I replace the suspension, the wheels, the tires, the breaks, add roll-bars, etc, how much of that car is still riding like a Mazda? The bottom line is this: the only thing that makes a BMW so nice is how well the parts are combined and how good the parts are. The parts themselves don't cost $50,000. Hell, just the brand name alone adds thousands on to the cost. There are better individual parts out there. I can buy better brakes than any BMW, a more powerful engine, etc. for a lot less, and it becomes cheaper the more work you do yourself. Its gonna ride like the car it is - the sum of a bunch of fucking awesome parts.

This is the part where I get to see how little you know about what your talking about. No, it is not a deliberate effect. It depends on the car. If you have speakers in the rear deck, they will get more bass because there is more airspace behind it. Plain and simple. If they are in the doors in the front and the back, you will see that they sound identical. Also, keep in mind that bass frequencies travel slower than any other frequency (unless you have a higher-end Alpine with Time Correction) so sometimes the "bass lag" will actually make it sound like more bass is being produced because it is coming milliseconds after the rest of the frequencies which are all hitting at the same time. The airspace is really where the extra bass comes from in rear decks, however. Also, when sound waves bounce off of glass, those soundwaves are going to sound louder, so it's yet another effect that can come from having rear speakers, but only in specific cars.


The speakers were in a 1997 Subaru Impreza Outback, bottom mount front and rear speakers. It was tested from multiple listening points, including the back seat and outside the car. I could be wrong regarding whether or not is deliberate, but I am talking from personal experience.

There are lots of differences, actually. Rockford and MTX are both considered second rate amps to most car audio enthusiasts, so yeah, they may seem rather similiar. The newer MTX amps may break that trend since they are now using extant components (another company owned by Mitech) which may improve the sound quality and performance, but I have yet to try them out...

  Granted, I still have an analog amp myself, but the newer all digital amps are very impressive. Oh, and BTW, less than .1%THD really isn't that great... most of the amps I own are below .01%.


They are mid-level amps. Yes they're second rate compared to Xtant, but Rockford is definitely on par with either Alpine or Infinity. I'm not asserting their the best. But unless you're running something like IDMax subs and high-end Focal components, you won't notice a difference.

I'm calling you on that. Exactly what amps do you own that have less than .01% THD? Because Xtant, Zapco, Precision Power, and Tru amps don't even put up those kinds of numbers. Hell, the only time I've ever seen that is on Helix or Brax competition amps that cost $1200 for a 200x4. So why don't you actually tell me what these amps are?

Edited by merlinski, 25 April 2005 - 06:35 PM.

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#65 Davis

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 06:32 PM

In coherence with this topic:
Bush is meeting with a Saudi prince (you'd be suprised that the Saudi's are the richest people in the world) to try to lower gas prices.
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#66 Terminator

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 07:05 PM

Davis, thank you so much. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who watches the news and gets the newspaper. I would like to point this out to all those confused persons. Gas prices are in fact not related to our econmy as much as you think. They are also not tied in to the president, whether he be a raging liberal, or a crazy conservative.

The fact of the matter is, GAS PRICES ARE CONTROLLED BY THE COUNTRIES IN WHICH THE GAS COMES FROM

Every fuel selling country can manipulate the price in which the sell each barell for. Heck, if they wanted to they cold sell gas for a dollar a barell, but they wont because they would not make as much prophit. They also dont have to sell it for much to make a prophit, they pay their workers much less than minimum wage here [U.S.A.] and have deals with all their major suppliers. Their suppliers being, pumps, drills, tankers, clothing, acounting companies, etc. (the list goes on and on).

That is why THEY change the price and THEY conrtol the market. As all of you who earn you living can see, the economy is greatly effected by the cost of fossil fuels, i.e. petroleum, oil, gasoline, etc.

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#67 MattPaintballer

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 07:08 PM

In coherence with this topic:
Bush is meeting with a Saudi prince (you'd be suprised that the Saudi's are the richest people in the world) to try to lower gas prices.

What has our country come to? Complete deceit, that's what. You can't listen to everything you hear on the news, you have to find out what they are saying and then get another opinion. Then you can form your own opinion and that's when you realize things. The only way we can lower gas prices is if we raise taxes. You know how Bush has been lowering taxes and then sending you checks? It's bull. Complete bull. It makes you think you're getting more money but you're not. You end up paying more than you would with higher taxes because the lower taxes are causing extreme side effects.

And cars, well the only way I would ever modify my car is to run on something other than gas. That would be the shiznat. When I get a car, I'm gonna buy some bumper stickers for it. I like bumper stickers. I like reading them. Does anybody know if it's possible to make your own bumper stickers? That would be awesome, because I've seen many that I would like but I've never seen bumper stickers for sale anywhere.
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#68 Ash

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:43 PM

Ok, I have seen, both in videos and in person, 1986 Buick Grand Nationals pulling down 10 second 1/4 miles.  Cars that have $10k put into them.  And there are street legal supras that run 8s and 9s.  Give me a car made by any company that can outperform that.  Hell, you said you'd give me plenty that will outperform it.  Give me a single car I can buy from Mercedes, BMW, or Ferrari.  Or even McClaren or Bugatti.  You can't, the fastest Ferrari is the Enzo, and that only runs a 11.20 1/4 mile.  Its possible to achieve things in your own garage that those other companies can't.



Like I said, you go do it and tell me what your car does, not what you have seen other people's cars do. Oh, and here's my car that'll beat it, Mercedes Mclaren whateverthefuck. I've seen it do 8.9. Does a Hennessey viper count? On a side note, I saw a BMW (I have no idea what model it was, but it was a 2000) do a 9.4 at the track about a month back. Obviously it's not stock, but I've never seen a BMW move that damn fast before.

My point still stands, however, that you will not get a car to feel like a Mercedes or some other luxury car unless you were to pretty much completely strip it and recreate it. You won't get the quiet , smooth ride, etc. Quiet especially. I know it is possible, but I don't know many people willing to put time into their cars like that.


The speakers were in a 1997 Subaru Impreza Outback, bottom mount front and rear speakers.  It was tested from multiple listening points, including the back seat and outside the car.  I could be wrong regarding whether or not is deliberate, but I am talking from personal experience.


In that case, you just have a bad ear. Unless there was some other factor in effect, the back and front speakers should be identical if the size is the same unless someone played with the crossovers to make it that way.

They are mid-level amps.  Yes they're second rate compared to Xtant, but Rockford is definitely on par with either Alpine or Infinity.  I'm not asserting their the best.  But unless you're running something like IDMax subs and high-end Focal components, you won't notice a difference.


Rockford is not on par with Alpine or Infinity. Alpine amps are most definetly much nicer, more effecient, and quieter (Ok, i'm not gonna lie, I haven't looked at the 2005 Rockford numbers yet). Infinity are the same internals as JBL which I would have to say are quite a bit nicer than Rockford as well. Just to back it up, Alpine has won sound quality comps more than once and so has Infinity/JBL... Rockford has not. And yes, you can tell the difference with even moderately nice speakers, no question. I have done amp replacements in cars, left the crossovers flat or turned off on the amps and relied only on the crossovers on the head units just to see what happens... yeah, huge differences between brands. Infinity's line last year sounded great, the new amps for this year are kind of bright. Audiobahn has a great sound... probably my favorite next to Alpine who also sounds rather nice. MTX has a rather bright sound, as well (though I haven't tested the 2005 models yet). You do not need the best speakers around to hear it. I may also add that Infinity was involved in the same sound quality competition as Focal, Diamond Audio, and a few other big names you may have heard, and their Kappa Perfect series powered by a JBL amp won first place over the rest.

I'm calling you on that.  Exactly what amps do you own that have less than .01% THD?  Because Xtant, Zapco, Precision Power, and Tru amps don't even put up those kinds of numbers.  Hell, the only time I've ever seen that is on Helix or Brax competition amps that cost $1200 for a 200x4.  So why don't you actually tell me what these amps are?


You are right, I exaggerated on that, though not deliberately. I haven't really looked at any THD numbers in about 2 years because I stopped caring what people had printed since most of it was lies (and companies like Rockford stopped advertising those numbers). I went and looked up a few, and there are many brands that have numbers way better than <.1%. Audiobahn has a couple that are .05%, .08%, .02%. Alpine has a few that are .08%, .03%, etc as well. Memphis amps seem to have around .03% on average. I seem to recall reading a few that were <.01%, but that is probably my shitty memory fucking with me again. A more accurate statement would have been none of my amps have THD as high as .1%THD. I will say this, Rockfords new 2005 models look a lot better than previous years, but they still shy away from advertising their THD. I also will not believe they have gotten better until I hear it. I have had bad experiences with them... as well as MTX. I have owned just every amp company I have mentioned, and a few that I have not including Rockford. My experience is Rockford is on level with MTX... niether of which are much to brag about.

And as a side note, $1200 for 200x4 is rather cheap.
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#69 Ash

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:46 PM

And cars, well the only way I would ever modify my car is to run on something other than gas. That would be the shiznat. When I get a car, I'm gonna buy some bumper stickers for it. I like bumper stickers. I like reading them. Does anybody know if it's possible to make your own bumper stickers? That would be awesome, because I've seen many that I would like but I've never seen bumper stickers for sale anywhere.

Sorry to double post, but I don't feel like editing. You can buy cars that run on full electric as well as cars that run on natural gas... both work fairly well.

You can get your own bumper stickers made... do a search online for Custom Bumper Stickers. I found several companies that made them.
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#70 merlinski

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 11:57 PM

Like I said, you go do it and tell me what your car does, not what you have seen other people's cars do. Oh, and here's my car that'll beat it, Mercedes Mclaren whateverthefuck. I've seen it do 8.9. Does a Hennessey viper count? On a side note, I saw a BMW (I have no idea what model it was, but it was a 2000) do a 9.4 at the track about a month back. Obviously it's not stock, but I've never seen a BMW move that damn fast before.

My point still stands, however, that you will not get a car to feel like a Mercedes or some other luxury car unless you were to pretty much completely strip it and recreate it. You won't get the quiet , smooth ride, etc. Quiet especially. I know it is possible, but I don't know many people willing to put time into their cars like that.


Nice try, but untrue. The Mercedes SLR McLaren does 11.6's on a good day. Mercedes themselves list the 0-60 time as 3.8 seconds, a time that rules out anything under 11. If the BMW did 9.4, it wasn't stock, which proves my point. Someone bought a BMW and made it faster than any production car on the road, which it certainly wasn't before they bought it.

And regarding sound - that's what Dynamat is good for. It's not hard to cut down on road noise. Obviously its not easy, but is possible. When you buy a BMW, you pay not only for the parts but for the energy that went into compiling those parts. When I modify a car, I pay for the parts and do the research and installation myself, and that's what makes it so much cheaper and so damn cool.

You are right, I exaggerated on that, though not deliberately. I haven't really looked at any THD numbers in about 2 years because I stopped caring what people had printed since most of it was lies (and companies like Rockford stopped advertising those numbers). I went and looked up a few, and there are many brands that have numbers way better than <.1%. Audiobahn has a couple that are .05%, .08%, .02%. Alpine has a few that are .08%, .03%, etc as well. Memphis amps seem to have around .03% on average. I seem to recall reading a few that were <.01%, but that is probably my shitty memory fucking with me again. A more accurate statement would have been none of my amps have THD as high as .1%THD. I will say this, Rockfords new 2005 models look a lot better than previous years, but they still shy away from advertising their THD. I also will not believe they have gotten better until I hear it. I have had bad experiences with them... as well as MTX. I have owned just every amp company I have mentioned, and a few that I have not including Rockford. My experience is Rockford is on level with MTX... niether of which are much to brag about.


Rockford's 2005 line, which is mostly unchanged from their 2004 line, has .08% THD across the board, in tests compliant with CEA 2006 standards. If you look at Infinity's product page, they only advertise <1%. Not less than .1%, only less than 1% THD. Talk about shying away from advertising actual numbers... Additionally, Infinity amps are rated at .08% THD as well.

If you want to go based on personal comparisons, then go right ahead. All the tests I've done between Rockford and Audiobahn have resulted in Rockford blowing them out of the water. So we won't get anywhere arguing based on what we've "heard". But if you go based on statistics, Rockfords are on par with both Infinity and Alpine for the 2005 models.

Edited by merlinski, 26 April 2005 - 12:09 AM.

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#71 Ash

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 11:19 AM

Nice try, but untrue.  The Mercedes SLR McLaren does 11.6's on a good day.  Mercedes themselves list the 0-60 time as 3.8 seconds, a time that rules out anything under 11.  If the BMW did 9.4, it wasn't stock, which proves my point.  Someone bought a BMW and made it faster than any production car on the road, which it certainly wasn't before they bought it.

And regarding sound - that's what Dynamat is good for.  It's not hard to cut down on road noise.  Obviously its not easy, but is possible.  When you buy a BMW, you pay not only for the parts but for the energy that went into compiling those parts.  When I modify a car, I pay for the parts and do the research and installation myself, and that's what makes it so much cheaper and so damn cool

Rockford's 2005 line, which is mostly unchanged from their 2004 line, has .08% THD across the board, in tests compliant with CEA 2006 standards.  If you look at Infinity's product page, they only advertise <1%.  Not less than .1%, only less than 1% THD.  Talk about shying away from advertising actual numbers...  Additionally, Infinity amps are rated at .08% THD as well.

If you want to go based on personal comparisons, then go right ahead.  All the tests I've done between Rockford and Audiobahn have resulted in Rockford blowing them out of the water.  So we won't get anywhere arguing based on what we've "heard".  But if you go based on statistics, Rockfords are on par with both Infinity and Alpine for the 2005 models.

You say what you want about the Mercedes, I have seen it run those numbers. You dodged my Hennessey Viper question, though. And yes, I know the beamer wasn't stock, I said that. It still doesn't really prove your point to me as I don't percieve fast as luxurious with a nice ride. I also somehow doubt that your engineering skills are as honed as the people who build these cars, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. I would still like to know your numbers once you get this all done, however. Maybe even post a few pics of the car because it sounds like you are actually going to do some worthwhile modifications rather than what all the other assholes like to do to theirs (ie Rims, cold air intake, fart cannon, etc). I still stand by my statement that doing these things is much different than talking about them. In any case, I am genuinely interested in seeing/hearing about this car once you get some work done on it.

I do know what Dynamat is for, thank you, but ripping apart the entire interior of the car to lay down dynamat and tighten all the bolts as well as look for any other loose parts and such is a bit easier said than done. Also, my point stilll stands that the things used inside the car that I doubt anyone would be replacing is something that does effect the price of a car... I don't know, if I was gonna drop $10k into a car I think I would want electronic climate controls... possibly with an acutal thermostat. All those little things are part of what makes a car luxury to me. In any case, I've rambled on even though I've said we should agree to disagree on this point. My belief is that you are not as good as the guys who work over at Daihmler Chysler (yeah, I don't know if I spelled that correctly) at designing and producing cars, however you claim you can make any car as good and luxurious as any car out there. We will never see eye to eye on this, so I call a truce on this point.

I couldn't find Rockford's THD numbers, but I'll take your word for it. I'm fairly sure they aren't across the board, however, since mono amps never have the same THD as 4 channels and such. In any case, the page I went to for Infinity has their 4 channel rated at .03% which is pretty good. Alpine still has Rockford beat on the numbers since most of Alpine's numbers are in the .03 and .02 range. Regardless, let's go on what they have won. Rockford won one big comp last year, I do remember that. Alpine wins usually around 2 comps a year for sound quality where Rockford doesn't even enter into the sound quality comps, just SPL. Audiobahn wins SPL records almost every year and Rockford (I believe) won one in the past 3 years ( may be mistaken, might be in the last 2 years). Audiobahn makes things way out of Rockford's range, so I can't really agree with you saying that rockford was "blowing them out of the water". They simply have different product lines... audiobahn makes 5000 watt amps and 5000 watt subs... Rockford doesn't, so it's hard to compare them. Plus, Audiobahn has that line of Full digital amps, a 5.1 channel amp, and several other specialty products where Rockford has nothing really comprable. Possibly Rockford is on par with the Infinity line of amps if you want to make that argument, but they are not on par with Alpine for sound quality or Audiobahn simply because of Audiobahn's vast product line.

If either of us has more experience I'm going to have to argue that I have probably heard more than you have. I don't know what you do for a living, but I install this stuff everyday. I have been doing this for about 4 years now... so yeah, I have a bit of experience. That of course doesn't include the experiences I had before I was professional because I don't count that as real experience. If you want to go ahead and throw all those awards all the companies I mentnioned have won and say Rockford is just as good even though the awards they have won don't even compare to what the other companies have won, that's fine. Go by the numbers and say that .08% is just as good as .02%. Those numbers aren't the same, but it is true that you and I probalby won't be able to tell the difference. What I can tell you is the amp makes a huge difference with your sound. I can also tell you that Rockford is normally scoffed at by the professional car audio society. I can tell you what i've heard in 4 years worth of experience and 6 years worth of swapping shit in and out of my car on a weekly basis. If none of that works for you, than again I will agree to disagree with you because it is rather obvious that your opinion won't change and nor will mine.


The other thing neither of us has taken into account is the type of music we listen to. You may listen to vastly different types of music than I do, which may effect our taste in audio equipment.

Edited by Ash, 26 April 2005 - 11:42 AM.

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#72 Dan Wask

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 04:25 PM

Rather than argue with about it all, just get your car, do the swap and then come back to me once you have taken it to the track and tell me what it gets in the 1/4 mile. Alos, there are plenty of cars I can "throw at it" that will outperform it... not all of them are reasonably priced, but they will outperform it... of course this is where your point comes in that "for the price" etc etc etc... and I agree. However, it's still gonna ride like the car it is, not the car it wants to be.


Ok, I have seen, both in videos and in person, 1986 Buick Grand Nationals pulling down 10 second 1/4 miles.

The bottom line is this: the only thing that makes a BMW so nice is how well the parts are combined and how good the parts are. The parts themselves don't cost $50,000. Hell, just the brand name alone adds thousands on to the cost. There are better individual parts out there. I can buy better brakes than any BMW, a more powerful engine, etc. for a lot less, and it becomes cheaper the more work you do yourself. Its gonna ride like the car it is - the sum of a bunch of fucking awesome parts.

Fine don't comment on my bike. It gets better milage than all your cars. 50 to the gal gal biotch :D

Merl, my nieghbor works at a body shop has a 1986 BMW e30. His mom got hit several times in that car, and it was dented to shit, and, she gave it to him. He has been slowly banging out the dents in his free time and recently got a set of 17(or 18 not sure) in. Borbet rims that he had painted at the shop. The centers are black, and look sick even with the prime showing through the paint. He just ordered all new suspension stuff last night. Its a nice car, they got it for something like 5-6 grand and it is a fast lilsomebitch. Honestly, do you have anything against him because he has an older bimmer that he fixed up ?

Or take my brother, he has a 97' BMW 323is that is amazing. He got it for 8,000. I'm definately not rich. He had been saving up for a BMW since 6th grade.

Oh, heres my neighbor's car.

Posted Image

~It looks high in that picture because the suspension needed to settle still. It looked like it had a lift kit for about 3 days after jacking it up to put the wheels on.

Edited by Dan Wask, 26 April 2005 - 04:28 PM.

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QUOTE (Arcanis @ Apr 9 2005, 12:02 AM)
When I insert a dick, nothing happens.


#73 merlinski

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 05:23 PM

The Hennessey Viper runs 10.2's. It's not stock (clearly) and it still doesn't beat out most serious modified cars. If you buy one all you're doing is paying John Hennessey and his workers to do what I'd do to a Mazda, tune it. What it really comes down to is that a determined guy will always be able to build something that outruns production cars. Obviously there are trade-offs, and the statement that I can build something exactly equal to a Mercedes is an exaggeration. But I can definintely build something faster, and it is impossible to deny that a car can be drastically improved for relatively cheap if you want to put work on it. And its certainly possible for me to take a Honda or a Mazda and make it ride nicer than any Honda or Mazda on the road. If you want to say "It's still a Honda and therefore inherently less than a Mercedes", go ahead. But then I recommend you go out and buy a Mercedes C230 to impress your friends with *gasp* a 3-point star on your hood while I spend less on a car that's much much faster, with a kickass stereo system and a completely redone interior. I'm not saying I'm a better engineer than the guys at Mercedes. But I am saying that the guys at Brembo are better at engineering brakes, and the guys at Borla are better at engineering exhaust, and buying those components and putting them together is cheaper than buying that directly from the manufacturer.

It's like building a computer. I don't think I know more about computers than the guys that work at HP, but I can buy an intel chipset, ASUS motherboard, ATI Radeon graphics card, etc. and have a faster machine than anything HP sells for cheaper.

Here's where I got the Rockford numbers - its not hard to find:
http://www.rockfordf..._power_grid.asp

I'd appreciate it if you found a link to the page where you're getting all this info, because it doesn't check out with what I've seen.

You do have more experience installing this kind of stuff than I do, but that doesn't mean that I've bought one amplifier and consider myself an expert. I read pretty much all of the good online forums for this kind of stuff, and in my experience Rockford is considered to be a pretty good mid-level amplifier by people who know what they're doing. This is also the case with the professional guys that I've talked to.

EDIT: Dan, I don't have anything against Bimmers, I just think that you can make a car better than a bimmer for less if you don't mind doing a little work.

Edited by merlinski, 26 April 2005 - 05:25 PM.

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#74 doctorsparkles

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 05:27 PM

Honestly, do you have anything against him because he has an older bimmer that he fixed up ?

I don't think anybody can think of anything wrong with restoring an older car so that it runs as good as new. I'd like to do the same to my car, and though I'm people would think that's a whole lot crazier than fixing a BMW.
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#75 Ash

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 01:08 PM

I don't doubt you could make a car faster than the cars I mentioned, I was more trying to argue the luxury aspect of it. Honestly, I could give a shit about speed. No one ever uses it anyway. I don't know where you get your 1/4 times, but I've seen Hennessey Vipers run faster than that, but it really doesn't matter. One last point I have is while you are dropping all that money into a cheaper car, sure it will badass when it is done, but the one clear argument about buying a faster sports car type is that you can put in less work for more speed. My buddy, for example, has an '04 Z06 that runs low to mid 9s. He's only dropped about 5 grand into the thing... that's pretty impressive. Granted, if you do all the work yourself, your mods will cost less. That engine switch you are talking about (supra engine in an RX7) is a lot of fucking work, though. Lots of custom fabrication there. In any case, we both exaggerated at points and have now backed down and I think we are at the best point of agreement we can get on this particular argument.

The page I get my Infinity numbers from is a dealer spec page that can only be accessed from my store LAN unfortunately.


Yeah, Rockford isn't horrible, it's just for the money you can normally get your hands on a better amp. I can't knock their monoblocks and 2 channels, they are pretty decent, but I would never buy one of their 4 channels (again). I understand that you read and ask around, but the only way to really know is experience. The fact that I had to explain the back speaker bass thing sort of outilines how much experience you really have. This stuff isn't rocket science, obviously, but I have lots of experience in controlled environments (ie not in a car where there are hundreds of variables) testing this equipment so I sort of know what most amps are capable of. In any case, I think our points were fairly similair to begin with here anyway... we are just dumb for arguing it. Rockford makes a decent amp, basically what we both said.
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