46 replies to this topic

[Talio]

Hells yeah! Trust me dude, I'm no rap fan myself, but you've gotta really give credit where credit is due. Testing the limits while making good music is tough. There are alot of Jazz artists out there that like to test thier limits, but they're not very good at it, and most of it is boring.

Now as far as musical genious goes, it's never been popular. Take a look at the greats. Motzart died poor, he wasn't even given a grave. Handel had to pinch and scrape writting music for churches because they were the only ones who had the money. Legend has it, he wasn't even religious, but some of his music is still used in churches to this day. These people weren't exactly popular at the time, so it begs the question, who is todays music genious, and if he did exsist, how would we find them?

I know for a fact that I don't pay close enough attention. I keep up with the local ochestra's as well as I can, and even being the clasical lover I am, I have to say that giong to the opera house and sitting listening to the music is not quite as enthusing as just listening to it in the car to and from work to get myself in and out of a certian frame of mind. (Needless to say, the whole Viking Terrorist thing doesn't work in the investment banking world.)

So while I am not without fault, seeing as I listen to Metallica, and it's basically the same thing only louder and with a mediocre guitarist rather then a shitty one, we have to accept that things that are being done now, have been done in the past. It's all labeled and has a tagged slapped on it.

Although I am no neh-sayer of consumerism, (Like I said, I work in an investment bank for god sakes) I'm not about to ask to live in a Orwellian society where we are meant to be streamed lined commercially. We have to accept that MTV and alot of other television based around "pop culture" are trying to do just that. They show you what is "cool" and then run adds for the stuff. They tell you "these are the top ten songs picked by you", but honestly, have you ever really seen the numbers? No, you haven't. Yet whoever ends up number one on their lists ends up selling that many more records. Ever notice that songs are rated by that? There aren't panelists of musical experts deciding which songs are best. Ok, well there's the Gramy's but they don't count. These "charts" are based off of sales. Thats all that matters.

So face it, every metal, punk, rock, smooth jazz, pop, or whatever music genre you decide will run your life fan is only one thing, a consumer. This is why I don't listen to music as much as possible.

Talio.

[Black Wrath]

All I'm hearing is "I'm so different, I won't let myself be marketed to!" and "Why don't you all be like me and not let the 'Corperate Machine' get to you!".

Give up.

We're all victims of marketing, whether you choose to admit it or not. Just stop whining about it. All your life, you will be fed truths and lies, just deal with it, and fucking enjoy your life.

Music keeps me going, and I don't fucking care if it's made from a forumla, and I don't care if it keeps a fat white guy's son eating every five minutes. The point is, not only do I make music with my band, I listen to it all the time.

The people who say they don't listen to it because they don't want their minds infested... you're weak. Learn to think for yourselves and decifer what's real and whats just a thing to make money off of you.

"I'm so different"... pfft.

[Fuse]

Im with Black Wrath here. I may think Linkin Park lacks any simblance of talent, but you know what? I still have their songs on my mp3 player. I may not think they are worth my money, but I'll still listen to them.

On the other hand, I do care where my money goes. I dont want to pay $20 for a CD and have the artist I like get a penny. Sure, I may have denied bands a couple dollars in total lost sales because I didnt purchase their albums, but I happily denied the greedy fascists a few hundred.

Oh, while were talking about formula, has anyone here seen the video for KoRn's "Ya'll Want A Single"? I'm not a big KoRn fan, not their new stuff anyways, but the video was interesting. It was cool to see a mainstream band go against the machine, even if it was just marketing.

[MattPaintballer]

Heh... Some of Nickelback's songs are okay, but the majority of them I don't like. I think it's pretty lame that they can't think of a new beat or anything... Just shows you how much talent they have.

As for Linkin Park not having any talent... They're music isn't the best, and they enhance it a bit, but hey you should see their performance on Live in Texas. I saw KoRn live, and I watched Live in Texas. LP's performance in Live in Texas was completely amazing. They didn't mess up, and all they had was their instruments. You can't cheat live without sounding like crap or getting caught like Ashlee Simpson. Also, LP is made up of all around good people. They donated $100,000 to the American Red Cross to help the tsunami victims. [Emcee Hammer] Can't touch this![/Emcee Hammer]

.

[rawray7]

they listen to what corporate America wants them to. What you hear on the radio a billion times a day is whatever was paid for to be played on the radio a billion times a day. Guess what? Those local radio stations you like are all owned by one of two major communication companies. [SNIP]

Ash, you rock.

I hate to bring politics here, but when Bush was elected office he did his ceo buddy at Clearchannel the favor of raising the maximum number of radio stations a single corporate entity could control. Clearchannel owned 30+ stations before Bush and now it owns 3000+ stations nationwide.

Another restriction our president helped get rid of was the restriction on advertisements. Songs are now allowed to be an advertisement, and not all play-counters have the technology to discern a station playlist song, from a paid advertisement. Aside from the general corporate scandals behind what goes on the station's playlist, now companies fill advertising space with a song - thus creating a "hit" simply by paying for the ad time, and you'll never know the difference, because the station doesn't tell you you're listening to an advertisement.

[Ash]

All I'm hearing is "I'm so different, I won't let myself be marketed to!" and "Why don't you all be like me and not let the 'Corperate Machine' get to you!".

Give up.

...blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc.

I never said I was different (though most people tell me I am... and by use of the word in the negative connotation, not the positive) and I never said that I was immune to marketing. If I was, I probably wouldn't be on a Nerf message board. I was simply bringing some things to the attention of all of you (most of which probably knew nothing about it until you read what I had to say). Albums sell because they are marketed well, point and case.

As for the other things you had to say: Music keeps me going too. Music is one of the most important things in my life. If you combine my GFs cd collection with mine (which is a reasonable idea since we live together) we would have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100 cds (600+ of which are mine). So yes, I spend a lot of money on CDs... and some of them are rather mainstream, some of them are bands that NONE of you know. And, I am saying don't let the corporate machine get to you... I am not, however, saying don't play into the corporate machine. Sure, buy things that are "mainstream", buy things that are marketed well, but that doesn't mean you have fallen victim to the corporate machine. I buy things all the time that are advertised and marketed full of lies and false implications, but I make the decesions for myself. I'm just saying know what they are trying to do to you and know how things work so that you may make decesions for yourself. The minute you let someone else make a decesion for you is the minute you forfeit the bit of freedom you have.

But hey man, if you want to go ahead and let someone else make your decesions for you, rock on.

Oh, and thanks Rawray. Just to clarify, though, Clearchannel didn't go from 30 to 3000 channels because of Bush. They had a restriction on how many channels they could have in a specified area, not how many they could have nationwide. The cap on how manyt hey could have in an area was rasied.

[Talio]

Jesus I wish some of you people read more often.

You know what. You guys don't get the idea of pointing out patterns. It's not an attempt to take down a system you retards, it's to make you aware of it. Education and knowledge are the keys of life. Do you think that George Orwell wrote 1984 to prevent it from happening? No! He wrote it to make us aware of where we could be heading. Did he write Animal Farm to topple communism? NO! He wrote it so people would be aware of the way things really run, and the way these people think.

Just because someone tells you that your a consumer or a marketing target doesn't you or them are any different, it's merely pointing out a truth in the world that perhaps some of you had not considered. From what I see, most of you find it horribly offensive. Well if you feel so fucking violated by what's been said, and think we're leetist fucktards, why are you letting it get to you? We're leetist fucktards! You figured us out. And if it doesn't bother you at all, why the fuck are you posting about it?!

Ignorance is not bliss folks, it's dangerous. I'm not putting down corprate america (say it with me...Investment....Bank), I'm merely pointing out what has come to my attention through a series of mediums, mostly MOTHERFUCKING BOOKS AND ARTICLES!

Reading if fundimental, motherfucker!

Talio.

[Inferno]

Reading if fundimental, motherfucker!

That's going in the signature.

I agree with >Fuse<'s way of thinking. If I don't like a band but do like one or two of their songs, I will find a way to acquire those songs without purchasing the entire album. However, if I do like the band and their songs, I will usually purchase their CD when it's on sale at Target combined with my employee discount. The most that their making off of me is $9.72, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[merlinski]

Outkast is definitely a pretty amazing group, Andre 3000 has got to be one of the most original people in music right now. Speaking of groups that do their own thing, I've been listening to a lot of Cake recently. They have a lot of very good music and an incredibly unique style to them.

IMO, the entire idea of a counterculture is pretty much bullshit. I'm not trying to argue with Talio or Ash, I'm just going off on my own tangent here. If you happen to like punk music, good for you (I do too). But the idea that anything is subverting the prevalence of corporate music is just ridiculous. The system exists because it's way music tends to go in this environment, and the "alternatives" like punk are marketed by the system itself. Hell, anything that enough people enjoy will always be co-opted by the industry. End of story. My favorite example of this is the number of people who wear t-shirts that say "You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same". I agree with Talio in the sense that people ought to realize that it's there, but they also should realize that the mechanisms at work exist because their the most successful ways of marketing music. So although you may think its cool to go against the system, you should just learn to accept the way things work and understand that its not going to change. Of course, you could always buy a Che Guevarra t-shirt.

Oh, and BTW, I happen to actually like linkin park, and my favorite songs off the Meteora CD were ones I had never heard until I listened to it (Faint, Lying from You, Nobody's Listening).

[Ash]

Maybe I took that the wrong way, but I never argued to try and change things. My point was understand it so you know how it works... mostly so it doesn't take advantage of you. I don't know where exactly punk music made it's way into this conversation, but ok.

I agree with what you are saying... to a point. You don't neccessarily have to just accept it all, you can disagree with it, it's ok. You don't have to fall victim to every aspect of it, either. Sure, you can enjoy mainstream music, I enjoy some myself... I think it's much better to open your options to what else is out there as well... there is a lot around that no one knows about that is quite good. In any case, i'm gonna go eat dinner, otherwise i'd prolly type another two pages.

[Black Wrath]

Okay okay, wow.

I'm getting the feeling that people think I'm a mainstream whore. I'm totally not, I just find alot of stuff that's on the edge of mainstream to be great music. I'm into Caliban, From Autumn to Ashes, Chimaria, Salute the Dawn, After The Tragedy, Alexisonfire, Veda Skyes, As I Lay Dying, and so on. I'd like someone to say they know all of those bands.

The thing is, I love odd stuff, and I love stuff that everyone listens to. I'm really into the rather heavier alternative music, and metal. I love hardcore and such as well; but I can also have a soft spot for punk-rock and such like Yellowcard and Taking Back Sunday. I have a real balance going on, I don't care if some of it means I'm letting a corperate machine take my money.

On a side note, I don't believe in downloading unless an artist has said they don't care. Metallica however, can suck me off, for whining so much about it.

There have been some good points in this thread, and I think too many things have been said over and over again. I think what Ash and few others are trying to get at is be aware of marketing and the methods used to get to you, so you can prepare for how you'll respond. I would just like to say that there's nothing wrong with giving in to a marketing scheme, because it's going to happen all the time in your life; just deal with it.

Make your own decisions, but for God's sake, don't go through life thinking you're above someone else because you believe yourself to be stronger and more immune to "life as we know it".

[JT Nerf Girl]

you name a band and I probably have something from them on my computer.  Unless it's rare or really unheard of.

Blink 182. I'm talking pre-Enema Of The State.

Does pre-Enema doesn't count that album does it? I've got 'All The Small Things' and 'What's My Age Agian' along with the entire Take Off Your Pants and Jacket album and the self-titled album (it's 2003 I believe). I have empty folders on my computer where I was going to download Budda and the rest of their albums, but haven't had time yet. Try something else.

Reading if fundimental, motherfucker!

I read a lot, mostly Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff though...

All of ya'll keep talking about CDs and stuff, see I haven't bought myself a CD in oh... at least three years or so. I refuse to pay for my music. Like someone here said that all the old classical people didn't make hardly anything and now people with minimal talent like LP make enough to just give away 100,000 dollars. Yeah that's great that they did that and all, but having enough money is crazy! That's like the new movie War of the Worlds that's coming out, part of it was filmed in my area and Tom Crusie gave some girl a large amout of money. It was at our DQ, ya know how they'll set the jars out to collect money for people who can't pay medical bills and stuff? He just donated all this money to that. I can't even imagin! Stuff like that makes me mad and that's why I refuse to pay for my music anymore... got a bit off-topic but oh well.

Edited by JT Nerf Girl, 09 January 2005 - 10:21 PM.

[MattPaintballer]

What do you mean "minimal talent like LP"? You like Nickelback, but you think Linkin Park has minimal talent? Just because their music isn't the best doesn't mean they aren't talented. You see, they write NEW MUSIC for EVERY SINGLE SONG THEY MAKE, unlike minimal talent bands like Nickelback. Nickelback doesn't have enough talent to write new music, no they just think of new words and put it with the same music as their old crap. Have you ever heard LP play live? They sound completely awesome. It's almost unreal how they sound so perfect! Have you ever heard Nickelback play live? It sounds like the guitarist is just strumming the same chord over and over again (and he probably is). Minimal talent band? That's Nickelback for ya', not Linkin Park.

Edited by MattPaintballer, 09 January 2005 - 10:32 PM.

[Fuse]

I have to disagree Merl. I was with you till you said the alternatives were marketed by the machine. Maybe the alternatives you've heard of and listen to, but there are definitely artists who work outside of the conventional corporate world.

I read a lot, mostly Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff though...

JT, I don't think thats what he meant...

[JT Nerf Girl]

What do you mean "minimal talent like LP"? You like Nickelback, but you think Linkin Park has minimal talent? Just because their music isn't the best doesn't mean they aren't talented. You see, they write NEW MUSIC for EVERY SINGLE SONG THEY MAKE, unlike minimal talent bands like Nickelback. Nickelback doesn't have enough talent to write new music, no they just think of new words and put it with the same music as their old crap. Have you ever heard LP play live? They sound completely awesome. It's almost unreal how they sound so perfect! Have you ever heard Nickelback play live? It sounds like the guitarist is just strumming the same chord over and over again (and he probably is). Minimal talent band? That's Nickelback for ya', not Linkin Park.

Woah boy... If you listen to Nickleback enough and actually play any instrument you'd be able to tell the difference in those two songs. They sound similar but they are not the same. Most of this type of music uses 'power cords' which means that it is mostly similar. Trust me, the music for Someday and How You Remind me are not the same. For one, miminal talent in my opinion is singing. LP doesn't sing (well what I consider singing) and Nickleback does for the most part. I never said I didn't like LP. I do actually like most of their stuff. And I never once said anything like "OMFG Nickleback is like only the best band EVER!" cause they're not. I just said I like them. I also like Green Day, Blink-183, GC, Creed, Alter Bridge, Big & Rich, Usher, and I'm sure I could waste more time by listening ever single artists that I've liked. Minimal talent means that they're not the greatest thing on earth, this coming from a musican. No, I can't play anywhere near what LP *or* Nickleback can, but that's because I've only been playing guitar for about a year. But I have played some instrument since 5th grade, so I know my music pretty well.

[Spectre2689]

Alright, well I'm gonna have to disagree largely here. Yes, a lot of bands use power chords, but not for the entire song without so much as an arpeggio or two. I play guitar, albeit only for a couple years, but I still do, and I can tell you that most of the stuff in those songs are the same - progression, timing, strumming pattern, beat, time signature, tempo - it's the same. I've grown out of Linkin Park, but some of the stuff they did was pretty talented. Not once did I hear a song by them that sounded much like another. I tried listening to a Nickelback CD once, I kept thinking it was the same song, but then I realized that 3 or so songs had gone by that sounded so alike that I couldn't tell the difference unless I was really paying attention.

I'm not trying to bash anyone's musical tastes, I'm just pointing out that Nickelback (among some other bands) are highly unoriginal in the way they make music.

On the topic of music, more accurately buying music, I buy music from all over the place. Some is mainstream, some isn't. Some is marketed, some isn't. It's all about what kind of music you're into. I believe in downloading music, just not an entire album. The only reason I download is to see whether I like a band or not, and if I do, I'll go and buy their CD (whether it be off something like iTunes or a store such as HMV). If I don't too bad for them.

On a side-note, most of the points I just made are completely out of order, due to the fact that I seriously need sleep. Just dig them out.

[TheHaze]

Ok so I was going to try to stay out of this but this is ridiculous. It's not that they're using power chords genius. They are using the EXACT SAME CHORDS, and the exact same chord progressions. The songs are in the same key! Apparently you're a "musician" so you must know what I'm talking about. If you don't you're just an idiot. Look most bands follow a formula or at least, a basic sound. That's how we get different genera’s of music, but what they are doing is playing the same song with different lyrics and rhythms. They are variations but still the same song in my mind. That is why nickelback sucks. Look I've been playing piano since I was 3, trumpet since 10, baritone since 12, guitar for two years, I'm in the top jazz choir at my school, I was in Illinois Music Education Association State choirs for vocal jazz and the senior choir (statewide choirs that you audition for) , and even I don't consider myself a musician. I'm a student, you're an ass hat. How about we just drop the topic? Nickelback is making money from the same song and making an ass out of themselves because of it. The end

[merlinski]

I have to disagree Merl. I was with you till you said the alternatives were marketed by the machine. Maybe the alternatives you've heard of and listen to, but there are definitely artists who work outside of the conventional corporate world.

I read a lot, mostly Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff though...

JT, I don't think thats what he meant...

Ok, you're right there. There are alternatives such as bands who make their own labels to distribute their stuff, or are underground. I guess it would be more accurate to say that any kind of alternative that becomes popular or profitable is co-opted by the machine.

And yeah, JT, you have to realize that you completely missed his point on both counts (reading and Pre-Enema Blink). By reading he's talking about societal commentary type stuff like 1984. And "Pre-Enema Blink" most certainly does not include Enema of the State. The point of the "pre" there was to signify music that hasn't been overplayed a bizillion times, like, say, all the small things and what's my age again.

[Talio]

All of ya'll keep talking about CDs and stuff, see I haven't bought myself a CD in oh... at least three years or so. I refuse to pay for my music.

Well thats something completely different. It's theft and it's dishonest. Anytime you acquire something that you would normally have to pay for without paying for it it's theft. You could say that when someone gives you something it's the same thing and not considered theft, but in that case, it's merely a transfer of property, not duplication. I have laws to back up my view, so no matter how justified you think breaking the law is, your still breaking the law, and it's dishonest.

Ash, I was more agreeing with you then anything else, there were three of use to make the same point. We're not trying to change the system, it's merely being aware of it. There was very little need to state any of it.

The reason it was stated in the first place is to explain why something can be successful but suck really bad at the same time. What does perhaps make us different is that we are able to distiguish patterns and become quite annoyed with it. I know for myself, I hear something that sounds the same in some way or another enough times, I become bored with it. It's cool the first time it happens, the rest is mediocre and not that good.

Think of it like other products. Razor scooters kick ass. They made those little metal frames first and it was a neat toy that was fun to play around. All of a sudden, 9 other companies bust out similar products. Then it's not as cool, because you've seen it before, played with it, and are already tired of it. Some people on the other hand, can ride any scooter an infinite amount of times, and it will never get old.

So to accuser of us to claiming we're different, perhaps you are right. Perhaps where we differ is that we get tired and bored of things. Perhaps not, just a thought.

Talio.

[Ash]

I'm really sorry to bring up an old post here, but I hadn't read what became of the conversation and I missed a few jewels I absolutely have to coment on:

1. This one is directed at JT. You mentioned that LP doesn't "sing" or not what you consider singing. Either you are deaf, or you have no ear for music. Granted LP has two lead vocalists (more or less) and one raps... the other, however, has an extremely large vocal range. He has one of the best voices in mainstream music, no doubt. He is an extremely talented young man (Chester is who I am referring to, btw). LP is still a rather boring band to me, however. I would like to see him go off and do a side project or something where he can really harness his talent.

2. This one is directed at Mattpaintballer and Spectre: You are both clowns. Go back and listen to Linkin' Park's first album... there are at least 3 songs on that album that all use the same chord progression. I'm sure if I went back and listened to it I would find more, but I lack the motivation. There are probably more like 4 or 5. This is done purposely, of course (much like Led Zeppelin liked to do, ie. their first album), but you still hear the repetition of the same chord progression used throughout several songs. So you see, both of your points are invalid due to your lack of base knowledge to back up your example. Shut up.


3. This one is for Black Wrath: I do know all those bands. I infact own cds by almost all of them. I don't have a Veda Skyes cd, but as far as I know all they have is one EP out. Salute the Dawn I don't have a cd from, either, but I don't think they have any. I also don't have After The Tragedy, but I do have them on a comp or two.n The rest I own cds by... and I've seen four of those bands live. I said it... do I get a cookie?

[Black Wrath]

3. This one is for Black Wrath: I do know all those bands. I infact own cds by almost all of them. I don't have a Veda Skyes cd, but as far as I know all they have is one EP out. Salute the Dawn I don't have a cd from, either, but I don't think they have any. I also don't have After The Tragedy, but I do have them on a comp or two.n The rest I own cds by... and I've seen four of those bands live. I said it... do I get a cookie?

No, I'm terrible at baking; the cookies would most likely kill you with first contact. However, you will get on my good side, which isn't worth much... but I like people who are into the music I listen to. You'll also get some respect from me for arguing so well, and not being an egotistical dick about your opinions.

Thanks, Ash, you're reaffirmed my faith in people being able to express their opinions without making other people feel lesser for not agreeing.

[Ash]

Well, then. That's unusual.