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Matrix Reloaded

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#101 Howard

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 04:48 PM

I was stumped on this one... Is the father of the matrix actually a person? Because he was in the matrix. Is he infact a program, like the oracle in a sense, to guide Neo inside of the matrix? Is he like the others, somewhere with a cattle prod stuck in the back of his head? That stuff stumped me.
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#102 Famine

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 06:01 PM

I swear to fucking god, sometimes I feel like fate is punishing me by stranding me on these boards with you people. Ok... fine, here we go IT'S SPIELBERG TIME KIDS!!

Q1. Ok, the "father of the Matrix" said that if Neo chose one door, Zion would be saved, but Trinity would die. If

S1. No, what he said is that if Neo chooses Door A, it would signify him reintegrating into The Matrix's mainframe, dubbed "The Source". Zion would STILL be destroyed but in exchange for his cooperation, Neo would be allowed to choose something like a few dozen people from the Matrix to found a New Zion. Now since he's declined the machine's offer and chose Door B, all of Zion will be wiped out and no "Free minds" will remain. Thus destroying any hope the human race ever has of completely freeing itself.

Q2. In the first Matrix film, she flatly to Neo that he wasn't "The One". She was wrong, wasn't she? What's up with that?

S2. I think Julie fielded this one pretty well. He was waiting for his next life. If you recall in The Matrix, Neo did die. He was shot like 7 times in the chest by Agent Smith with a .50 caliber hand cannon. He stopped breathing, he was dead, hence this IS his next life.

Q3. And, what was all that stuff about the choices being made 6 times?

S3. Neo is the 6th "One". It would seem that approximately every 100 years or so a "One" in born inside the Matrix. He goes through everything Neo has pretty much gone through but the difference is that the 5 before him chose the other door (or so it is implied.... maybe) and perpetuated the cycle of destruction and rebirth.

Q4. In this case, why is he still trying to kill Neo? For personal revenge? If he is just a computer program, how can he have emotions? And if so, why can't they just delete him?

S4. Well I thinkthe first Matrix movie clearly showed that Agent Smith did in fact have emotions. "I hate it this place, this zoo"... hate is usually categorized as an emotion. How can machines have emotions? I dunno. How can they see into your soul and predict your fate? (Oracle) How can they fall in love? (Persephone said that her and the Merovingian were once in love) It would seem that since the Matrix was built the machine's AI has been evolving. Some could argue that when compared to Morpheus or Niobe or Commander Lock they are now more human than some of the free humans themselves. Now Agent Smith has the ability to inhabit a human body... what the fuck is up with that? I don't know.

My opinion: I think that somewhere, somehow, some part of the Matrix has to be powered by a human's brain, or the machines somehow need humans for reasons besides a power source. I think both the Elder Councilman and The Oracle represent the factions of their sides (Man and Machine) who understand that they have a symbiotic relationship and require one another to exist. Both provide a source of power for the other, both figuratively and literally.

And I don't think they're going to play that whole Matrix in a Matrix card. It's just to quaint. Monkeys.
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#103 Famine

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 06:17 PM

I was stumped on this one... Is the father of the matrix actually a person? Because he was in the matrix. Is he infact a program, like the oracle in a sense, to guide Neo inside of the matrix? Is he like the others, somewhere with a cattle prod stuck in the back of his head? That stuff stumped me.

Howard, shut the fuck up. You're like a chile that wanders into a theater..., fuck that, you're a refugee from the local Tard Center in a stupid cowboy hat. But yes, the Architect is in fact a program (or so he claims). He isn't as benevolent as The Oracle though. The Architect seeks total control, to keep the humans completely enslaved and to try to keep the "anomolies" (ie The Ones, ie Neo) under some degree of control. This would lead me to believe that The Oracle is somewhat the opposite, that while The Architect tries to polarize Man and Machine into a Master-Slave relationship, The Oracle will work to orchestrate cooperation between the two. She is an agent of Fate and Destiny, the very concept of which defies the very logic of a machine or program.

Opinion: The faith of Morpheus and Neo will play a major roll in the third film. Morpheus has been following The Oracle blindly all these years and she has yet to fail him but now Neo is convinced that she's just another control to keep the humans enslaved. If they humans are to have any true chance of obtaining peace and freedom I think they will have to learn to trust and believe in the machines, that is what the previous One's have been unable to do. It's been hinted at that the previous Ones were smarter, faster, maybe more logical than Neo. Neo reacts much more off of gut instinct and human emotions/reactions. Maybe that humanism will prompt him to place his faith in The Oracle again (even if Morpheus does not, or Morpheus might retain his faith and have to convince Neo again to believe).
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#104 merlinski

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 06:44 PM

Ok, I thought I was confused, but after reading this topic I realize I have a much better understanding than most.

The first door allows Neo to choose a small number of humans and, after the machines destroy Zion, rebuild it. This would renew the cycle (it would be the 7th cycle) which, about 100 years later, would lead to the 7th "one".

The guy in the white suit is the architect of the matrix, and probably closer to the basic single conciousness of the machines than any other character in the movie. His mind is that of the machines. He refers to himself as the father of the matrix, and the oracle as the mother of the matrix. He explains that in order for humans to accept the matrix, they needed to have a degree of hope. He calls this an imperfection in human nature, and says that in order to overcome this the oracle came up with the idea of "the one". This gives the machines control over the humans, because the machines allow the cycle to occur which perpetuates machine rule while giving people hope. I believe that this is why the second door leads to the destruction of mankind, because once all freed minds are destroyed, there will be no hope and people will not accept the matrix.

The oracle was not wrong in the first film, this is based on the whole "Don't worry about the vase" thing. She told neo that he wasn't the one in order to get him to try and save Morpheus. That was how he find out he was, in fact, the one. If she hadn't told him this, he wouldn't have found it out. Remember, "She told you what you needed to hear".

Neo is the 6th "one", and the different Neos on the computer screens in the white room are the 5 that came before him. All 5 made the choice to rebuild Zion, but this Neo is different. I disagree with Famine's statement that the other ones were faster, smarter, and more logical than this Neo. I think that the French guy says something about he being better than his predecessors. Morpheus also says in the first film that humanity, and the fact that humans don't have to be bound by the same rules machines do, means that Neo can be faster and stronger than any program. This would lead to the conclusion that Neo is more human, which would make him stronger and faster than his predecessors.

The thing at the end is, IMO, a sign that neo truly is destined to destroy the matrix, that he is truly different than his predecessors. And the Agent Smith anomoly goes to the fact that Neo infused some humanity into Smith when he destroyed him. And of course, Smith is now in good old human form so he and Neo can continue their, uh, "rivalry" in the next film.
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#105 Grinch

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 07:52 PM

Whew! After reading all these posts, I definitely understand the film a lot better. But there are a few things about it that they don't do a very good job of explaining. For example, if the Architect wrote the Matrix, and he is a program, who wrote him? Did some guy write a program that would write a program for him? See, they don't explain this.

I think that the third will have an extremely weird twist at the end. I was thinking that maybe the whole "real world" that Zion exists in is also part of the Matrix. It's the part of the Matrix that is supposedly "real" although it's just another program. The fact that a new "the One" comes every so often is a pattern. In real life events usually don't follow a pattern, but a written program does. Comments?

I definitely need to see this thing again. The first Matrix definitely had a better and easier storyline to follow.

Oh, and Famine, chill out.
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#106 Famine

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 07:59 PM

When I said faster I meant faster thinking, just for clarification. I agree that Neo has the potential to be more powerful than his predecessors but I attribute this to the fact that Neo is less logical than they were. I picture the previous "Ones" as being more like Morpheus. Morpheus knows exactly what he is capable of in The Matrix, he uses alot of forethought and planning in his attacks (I mean, c'mon, how he took out the Twins was just amazing) but Morpheus is very devoid of emotion, he's cool and calculating and makes all of his decisions based on what his ultimate goal is, Morpheus thinks everything out. Neo on the other hand is very impulsive, he's emotional, he doesn't really think or plan what his next step will be, he just flows with whatever he comes up against. I think it's because Neo doesn't think about what he can or can't do, that he just goes with his gut feelings, that he will be the final One. While the Merovingian commented that Neo showed more promise than the others, both the Oracle and Architect have commented on how slow he is to draw conclusions or figure things out for himself.
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#107 Famine

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 08:10 PM

Whew! After reading all these posts, I definitely understand the film a lot better. But there are a few things about it that they don't do a very good job of explaining. For example, if the Architect wrote the Matrix, and he is a program, who wrote him? Did some guy write a program that would write a program for him? See, they don't explain this.

Oh, and Famine, chill out.

The Matrix is an interactive neuro-simulation designed to house the humans. It was designed and coded by The Architect with the assistance of The Oracle. It would seem that those two programs, like all sentient programs, originate from The Source. What is the Source? Who the fuck knows. In the first movie they said that a singular AI conciousness spawned all the other AI machines after it, now I haven't seen all the Animatrix's but I'm going to guess that The Source is like a more spiritual version of that original Conciousness.

And it's ok dude. I just fucking hate Howard with a passion... and he knows this.... so quit gettin all hippy on me.... fag.
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#108 Famine

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 01:05 AM

DAMMIT!! That's the impression I got too Julie!! Neo asked if The Oracle was the mother and I swore that The Architect made some sort of snide remark and dodged the question. Hmm...
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#109 GandalfInArmor

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 04:59 PM

I think what the architect exactly said was that he was helped by others to create the matrix, and that IF there was a mother of the matrix it would undoubtedly be the Oracle. So he didn't exactly say that the Oracle had the title of the "mother of the matrix" but it was implied that she was at least very influencial in creating it.

Correct me if i'm wrong here.
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#110 merlinski

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 05:03 PM

I think gandalf's account is pretty accurate.

The architect says that he could be called the father of the matrix. He explains the concept of "the one" and the how the need for hope was an imperfection in humans, and how to make the humans accept the matrix, someone came up with the idea of "the one". He says that "If I am the father of the matrix, then she is the mother". Neo says "The oracle" and the guy nods or something like that.
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#111 cxwq

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 05:11 PM

He says that "If I am the father of the matrix, then she is the mother". Neo says "The oracle" and the guy nods or something like that.

Agreed up to this point.

However, I thought when Neo said "The Oracle" the Architect smirked/chuckled at him. Definitely got the impression that he was (still) laughing at Neo's incorrect assumptions.
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#112 Famine

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 07:38 PM

Same here C. I dunno, I'm gonna see the movie again sometime this weekend. I'll let you all know what my second impressions are. BTW, the video game is pretty fuckin cool.
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East Coast Nerf 2007: I'm not driving to Massachusetts again.
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East Coast Nerf 2009: Quid pro quo, douchebags!

#113 Jangadance

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Posted 21 May 2003 - 07:03 PM

oh, yeah, know why they picked the name "neo"? Cuz it sounds cool, and if you mix up the letters you get; "one".

Oh, I almost forgot. I wanted to mention that Morpheus is the Greek god of Dreams. The name of the drug Morphine is derived from this word, so it's interesting to think about the filmmakers choice in names. Are there any other names you can pick up on that contain symbolism? I can't really analyze Trinity, what's the deal with that? Oh yeah, don't post about Tank and Dozer's names or I'll get angry and burst a blood vessel in my eyeball. :D
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#114 VACC

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Posted 21 May 2003 - 11:35 PM

That's pretty much it Julie, I saw the damn thing again today. Why? I honestly don't know.
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#115 merlinski

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Posted 22 May 2003 - 04:15 PM

I dunno... if nothing else, its convinced me to go see it again.
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#116 VACC

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 02:24 AM

It just sucks you right in, doesn't it?

No, actually it has the opposite effect on me. I wanted to see the trailer after the credits, and that I have done. I went back and watched the first movie on my home theatre system, and I gotta say, the sequal is more of a step down than I had remembered.
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#117 cxwq

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 01:24 PM

In addition to Reloaded's existing records, it now boasts the biggest take for a single week.

It's also up to 94th on the all-time domestic gross chart. Expect it to break the top 50 during it's second weekend. Bruce Almighty is not enough competition to seriously degrade Reloaded's performance.
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#118 Grinch

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 07:59 AM

I think I've figured out what makes the first movie more exciting. Although Reloaded has more fight scenes, Neo's power has greatly increased. In the original, you didn't know if he was going to win. He was just an office worker in the beginning, but by the end he was a fighter.

My point is, in the original movie, in the scenes with Neo and the Agents, you never knew who was going to win the fight. Don't get me wrong, but the first time I saw it I was totally surprised when Neo finally got shot (and died) at the end. It was a challenge--Neo was going to the limits to try and defeat these unhumanly programs, without the assurance that he knew he'd survive.

In Reloaded, now that Neo is all super-powerful, there is no doubt in the fight scenes that he'll die. You know he's going to beat them all up, and fly away to safety. Almost makes him seem too powerful, huh? In the theater, we had the assurance that Neo was going to kick the Agents' @sses and escape. This element of reassurance wasn't there in the first movie, which lead to a more exciting, and suspenseful plot.

Plus, in the original, all the "Bullet-time" and kung-fu jumps was something we'd never seen before. In Reloaded, it was nothing new. Well, that's my opinion.
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#119 VACC

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 11:54 AM

These are all good points. Yet the thing that really changed the experience for me was Smith. I watched the first film again and reallized that he was so damn good in it because he was believable. He had motivation, and his performance was great. In the second film, when he shows up, his character just doesn't jive. There is no reason for him to be there, and while I'm sure the brothers will give us an explanation in the third film, I think it will seem more like an excuse. It justl feels like an afterthought added to satisfy griping fans. His scenes were the strongest parts of the first film, and the weakest of the second.
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#120 Grinch

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 10:19 AM

These are all good points. Yet the thing that really changed the experience for me was Smith. I watched the first film again and reallized that he was so damn good in it because he was believable. He had motivation, and his performance was great. In the second film, when he shows up, his character just doesn't jive. There is no reason for him to be there, and while I'm sure the brothers will give us an explanation in the third film, I think it will seem more like an excuse. It justl feels like an afterthought added to satisfy griping fans. His scenes were the strongest parts of the first film, and the weakest of the second.

Agreed. In "The Matrix", Agent Smith was a program, sent to "eliminate" Neo. Hugo Weaving is an excellent actor, too. He had been sent to kill, and nothing was going to come between him and his goal. In Reloaded, he's just a disgruntled program, after Neo for personal revenge.
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