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Koosh Vortex Tornado Scans (Now a shell replica concept thread)

3D printing 3D scan Koosh Tornado crossbow CNC Injection Molding Resin Casting Fiberglass

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#76 Meaker VI

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 08:16 PM

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Here's is the question you should ask yourselves:  Why would we spend all of this time and effort replicating an existing shell, when we have plenty of talented artists and 3D modelers in this community who are capable of designing /exactly/ what we want?


Also a legitimate question. Frankly, with all these letter-blasters floating about, we've got whatever we want. Well, almost whatever we want *Nudges Aeromech about releasing files*

TBH though, it's a *pain* to model an accurate shape that then also has great ergonomics. I was planning to try to use 123d or something similar to copy an existing handle we all know and love, then drop a catch & trigger into it and use it on homemades. Maybe a maverick or TTG.
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#77 Maniacal Coyote

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 08:37 PM

Also a legitimate question. Frankly, with all these letter-blasters floating about, we've got whatever we want. Well, almost whatever we want *Nudges Aeromech about releasing files*

TBH though, it's a *pain* to model an accurate shape that then also has great ergonomics. I was planning to try to use 123d or something similar to copy an existing handle we all know and love, then drop a catch & trigger into it and use it on homemades. Maybe a maverick or TTG.

 

I'd vote for the TTG. Far more comfortable handle.


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#78 Langley

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 08:54 PM

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I have a recon shell in my homemades toolbag that is exclusively for tracing onto wood for handles.  I never understood the love for the maverick handle, the bumps never quite line up with my fingers.


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#79 jwasko

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 09:31 PM

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I have a recon shell in my homemades toolbag that is exclusively for tracing onto wood for handles.  I never understood the love for the maverick handle, the bumps never quite line up with my fingers.

Obviously the issue is with your fingers, Mav grips are pretty much my second favorite bumps to hold.

 

My favorite bumps are much squishier and don't quite fit in my hand as well, but they're really fun to play with.

 

Editting in something useful: http://www.smooth-on.com/media.phphas lots of instructional videos for mold-making and casting


Edited by jwasko, 20 April 2016 - 09:48 PM.

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#80 Meaker VI

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 09:36 PM

I have a recon shell in my homemades toolbag that is exclusively for tracing onto wood for handles.  I never understood the love for the maverick handle, the bumps never quite line up with my fingers.


Does it have a bigger handle than the retaliator? I've got one of those, and I find it is *way* too small.
 

I'd vote for the TTG. Far more comfortable handle.


TTG: 2, Maverick: 1, Recon: 1

I'll see how this program works. I could try tracing it, but I'm worried it won't be the same in some invisible yet tangible way. If someone has access to a *real* 3d scanner, I'd love scans of a maverick and TTG handle.

Ed: Huh, no warning when someone posts. Added Jwasko's opinion to the count. I like the mav too, but the TTG is my all-time favorite pistol. Well, all-time favorite tied with the DT3 pistol, but I have no idea where the one I had went.

Ed 2: Ugh, 123d is not good enough for this kind of thing. Ran the best maverick scan I could find through Meshlab, but now it's too massive to open with sketchup and in order to *fix* the problems I definitely warped the handle's shape. Back to the drawing board...

Edited by Meaker VI, 20 April 2016 - 10:53 PM.

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#81 The2ndBluesBro

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 11:33 PM

Given these factors:

  • Possible (though improbable) legal ramifications.
  • Disagreements about imperfections of the Tornado and Crossbow shells for NIC-caliber use.
  • Arbitrary placement of screw posts and vital features without regard to our preferences.
  • Mediocre strength members.
 
Here's is the question you should ask yourselves:  Why would we spend all of this time and effort replicating an existing shell, when we have plenty of talented artists and 3D modelers in this community who are capable of designing /exactly/ what we want?

Because it's fun, mainly. And to see if we can. Even if we could get a model made up, we'd be no closer than we are now, anyway.
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#82 Maniacal Coyote

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 12:53 AM

Given these factors:

  • Possible (though improbable) legal ramifications.
  • Disagreements about imperfections of the Tornado and Crossbow shells for NIC-caliber use.
  • Arbitrary placement of screw posts and vital features without regard to our preferences.
  • Mediocre strength members.

 

Here's is the question you should ask yourselves:  Why would we spend all of this time and effort replicating an existing shell, when we have plenty of talented artists and 3D modelers in this community who are capable of designing /exactly/ what we want?

 

Short answer: Shits and grins.

Long answer: Sure, we can make better designs, but we've always had a special place in our hearts for these shells. I don't have either blaster in my possession, yet, but I'm working on acquiring both, and the materials to start casting my own shells.

 

Also, I have a bad idea involving a Tornadobow and the Smart AR assembly from a Crossfire Bow that I really wanna try out.


Edited by Maniacal Coyote, 21 April 2016 - 12:53 AM.

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#83 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 02:19 AM

Close mindedness is what destroys innovation and advancement of the hobby. I'd expect nothing less from grumpy old man Draconis. Thanks for never changin'!

 

Really the only reason I have for continuing this search, is because people have been trying to recreate the crossbow shell via printing for how long, with how much work? What is there to show for it? 

 

Frankly, resin casting, vacuum forming, or fiberglass isn't much better than it, but some methods have the ability to do it now. Which is more to say than any 3D printer so far. 


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#84 Draconis

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 06:58 PM

Because it's fun, mainly. And to see if we can. Even if we could get a model made up, we'd be no closer than we are now, anyway.

 

That isn't true, though.  If we have a properly meshed model, sections can be printed.  If it was made somewhat modularly, a person could swap out a handle for the TTG, Maverick, or the Recon version (Modulus for the masochists).  Or print the longer plunger housing, stock attachment point, etc.  Once all the sections are printed, then a negative mold couple be made.
Conversely, if you have the model, you can contract with a CNC machine shop to cut a mold.

 

Close mindedness is what destroys innovation and advancement of the hobby. I'd expect nothing less from grumpy old man Draconis. Thanks for never changin'!

 

I just gave you guys new suggestions, for something that could totally advance the hobby.  Are you sure that you read my post correctly?


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#85 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 07:39 PM

 

I just gave you guys new suggestions, for something that could totally advance the hobby.  Are you sure that you read my post correctly?

Definitely not, that's what happens when you post after midnight.

 

Actually I am all for the modular 3D printed blaster idea. That's basically what I have in mind for 3D printed shell pieces that you can attach to rainbows and other homemade blasters. The only problem is in proportions of each handle would be different, as well as stocks and other items. Realistically you could just make a standardized attachment point for them all, like nerf, so that they'd all fit fine. I don't see why we all have to put our eggs in the 3D printing basket. More variety in how you can attain a blaster shell, the better.


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#86 Draconis

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 07:50 PM

It is difficult to beat printing for prototyping.  It would allow many more people to physically contact a designed part, and add their perspectives to a possible group-sanctioned design.


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#87 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 09:10 PM

It is difficult to beat printing for prototyping.  It would allow many more people to physically contact a designed part, and add their perspectives to a possible group-sanctioned design.

I can't disagree with that. In terms of redesigning an existing shell, 3D printing is the way to go. Although resin casting let's say, a crossbow shell, then extending the stock with bondo, and replacing the handle with an n-strike blaster, then recasting wouldn't be too difficult either. Anything that is on the blaster, no matter how weak or what the material is, as long as it can be cast, it can be converted into resin when the mold is filled.


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#88 Meaker VI

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 09:13 PM

I've long held the belief that 3d printing is *best* at making the complex parts you don't want to spend time making yourself, because you don't have it or you aren't skilled enough or you don't have the tools or whatever.

To this end, we're getting toward something like what I thought we'd have: 3d printed plunger heads, handles, triggers, pump-grips, etc etc.

Making that shell modular... *shudders*. It'd be awesome, but someone's nightmare to model.

Edited by Meaker VI, 21 April 2016 - 09:16 PM.

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#89 DjOnslaught

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 05:51 AM

For handles could likely use a take away from certain nerf guns and have those portions of the shell removable while the trigger system or any other stays totally in place.
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#90 Kilomona

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 07:06 AM

For handles could likely use a take away from certain nerf guns and have those portions of the shell removable while the trigger system or any other stays totally in place.

Yeah, like a base plunger system with a priming mech and barrel as the base, then handles, stocks, barrel extensions, etc could be added as modular pieces. Maybe even a magwell could be a piece if the base part had a breech.
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#91 DjOnslaught

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 08:05 AM

Yeah, like a base plunger system with a priming mech and barrel as the base, then handles, stocks, barrel extensions, etc could be added as modular pieces. Maybe even a magwell could be a piece if the base part had a breech.


If it's gonna be modular why not different sized magwells based on what you wanted to fire. For example insert a "mega plunger" a mega barrel and a mega magwell and now your gun shoots megas... if your really going modular make the swappable components self contained so you can do it at a war between rounds.
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#92 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 12:31 PM

If it's gonna be modular why not different sized magwells based on what you wanted to fire. For example insert a "mega plunger" a mega barrel and a mega magwell and now your gun shoots megas... if your really going modular make the swappable components self contained so you can do it at a war between rounds.

Not sure how easily the inside of a shell could be compatible with different styles of internals, but I like where that's heading. Big ideas, crazy ideas are some of the best ones. As seen on the centurion, micro mag well installation is possible. What I'm wondering however, is the practical application of this. Are we talking about a blaster people just buy and select their parts, and have a blaster ready to build shipped to them? Are we talking about stock caliber, when talking about elites and megas as you mentioned, or NIC style like some of the others?


Edited by Spud Spudoni, 22 April 2016 - 12:33 PM.

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#93 DjOnslaught

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 02:07 PM

Not sure how easily the inside of a shell could be compatible with different styles of internals, but I like where that's heading. Big ideas, crazy ideas are some of the best ones. As seen on the centurion, micro mag well installation is possible. What I'm wondering however, is the practical application of this. Are we talking about a blaster people just buy and select their parts, and have a blaster ready to build shipped to them? Are we talking about stock caliber, when talking about elites and megas as you mentioned, or NIC style like some of the others?


Would have a stock caliber it came as, with the option to get the different caliber parts aside from the magwell have that stock as mega clip siced but with the elite insert already inside.
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#94 Kilomona

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 02:54 PM

Not sure how easily the inside of a shell could be compatible with different styles of internals, but I like where that's heading. Big ideas, crazy ideas are some of the best ones. As seen on the centurion, micro mag well installation is possible. What I'm wondering however, is the practical application of this. Are we talking about a blaster people just buy and select their parts, and have a blaster ready to build shipped to them? Are we talking about stock caliber, when talking about elites and megas as you mentioned, or NIC style like some of the others?

I was thinking a Dualstrike type system, with the capability to fire megas and stock caliber darts depending on the barrel. Of course, leak holes might need to be installed for shooting elites.
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#95 Maniacal Coyote

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 03:04 PM

I was thinking a Dualstrike type system, with the capability to fire megas and stock caliber darts depending on the barrel. Of course, leak holes might need to be installed for shooting elites.

Why add leak holes? We're not making toys for little kids, are we? That's the reason for how ventilated the Dualstrike is.


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#96 Kilomona

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 03:23 PM

Why add leak holes? We're not making toys for little kids, are we? That's the reason for how ventilated the Dualstrike is.

Because something shooting megas at competitive speeds for NIC wars would probably destroy stock darts.
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#97 Craftsman

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 06:10 PM

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here. Once an accurate scan is made of an external shell component is made it could be used with resin to cast a block of resin with an outer pattern on it. That could then be inserted in to pre-made fixture and spots could be machined in place relatively quickly and inexpensively. If you make the inside a blank canvas so to speak, you could drop in internals which are "self-contained" and can be swapped in place easily. At least that's one method I am thinking of. Another is injection molding. If you have a relatively simple design the mold is not nearly as expensive. It gets expensive when you need all kinds of ejector pins, super high tolerances, and fancy designs. I work in a shop that makes molds for injection molding as well as does them. From my experience, this is what creates cost very fast. I have seen pieces the size of an eraser cost 200$ each, and there are 16 of them in some molds. Bottom line is injection molding IS a possibility if you plan ahead.


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#98 Kilomona

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 10:22 AM

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here. Once an accurate scan is made of an external shell component is made it could be used with resin to cast a block of resin with an outer pattern on it. That could then be inserted in to pre-made fixture and spots could be machined in place relatively quickly and inexpensively. If you make the inside a blank canvas so to speak, you could drop in internals which are "self-contained" and can be swapped in place easily. At least that's one method I am thinking of. Another is injection molding. If you have a relatively simple design the mold is not nearly as expensive. It gets expensive when you need all kinds of ejector pins, super high tolerances, and fancy designs. I work in a shop that makes molds for injection molding as well as does them. From my experience, this is what creates cost very fast. I have seen pieces the size of an eraser cost 200$ each, and there are 16 of them in some molds. Bottom line is injection molding IS a possibility if you plan ahead.

Hehe, it sounds like you live up to your name. In your experience, how much would you estimate a mold of 4 very basic Retaliator size shell halves would cost? No screw holes, minimal nooks/crannies, and comparable thickness to nerf shells.

 

What we really need is to get HeartFox(x?)Nerf in on this conversation. He/she has already printed a crossbow stock, and not only that, but made it able to go onto stock blasters and added attachment pieces. Printing a shell piece by piece, like the OP post, could make printing viable. That said, a job like that begs someone who is willing to do a nightmare's worth of modeling and trial and error.
 


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#99 Maniacal Coyote

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 06:46 PM


Hehe, it sounds like you live up to your name. In your experience, how much would you estimate a mold of 4 very basic Retaliator size shell halves would cost? No screw holes, minimal nooks/crannies, and comparable thickness to nerf shells.

What we really need is to get HeartFox(x?)Nerf in on this conversation. He/she has already printed a crossbow stock, and not only that, but made it able to go onto stock blasters and added attachment pieces. Printing a shell piece by piece, like the OP post, could make printing viable. That said, a job like that begs someone who is willing to do a nightmare's worth of modeling and trial and error.
 


Idea: have Heartfoxx make a shell for a rainbow pump that has a stock mount!
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#100 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 08:49 PM

Idea: have Heartfoxx make a shell for a rainbow pump that has a stock mount!

Or we can put the work in ourselves as a community instead of outreaching for others to make it for us.


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