83 replies to this topic

[Dan Wask]

I can't believe there hasn't been a topic about this, but if there has been one about not posting this, then feel free to delete it.



So, that had to have been the biggest crock of steaming shit fresh from that flaming fucktard's ass I have ever seen. WTF is with the whole section of the movie where the bush family is friends with the binladens ? WTF ?

The only funny part from what I saw was, during the movie some guy got up and yelled "FAGGOOOOTS !!!111oneelven" when ever Colin Powell or Bush was on screen.

Heres the thing, When they were in detroit interviewing the people from the ghetto, why were they upset at the government for thier friends/family getting killed in Iraq/Afghanistan (I wasn't really watching) ? They enlisted in the forces either for thier country (god bless America) or because they need the free education. When they were asking the congressmen if they had enlisted thier children, why do you think many of them said no ?

Heres the thing, The wealthy can pay for thier education. The poor and sometimes middle class have trouble paying, forcing them to enlist sometimes for the hope of living through the war, and having an education. Moore seems to want us to think that we should all be equal economicly wise and thats just not fucking right.

If we were all equal in the money sense, then this would be a mother fucking communist country, which is something (god blessm) JFK was trying to fix. (Even though Johnson fucked up vietnam the fucktard)

So the main question at me lil' heart right now is why should all these anti governmental fuck ups hate America ? If they really hated it, wouldn't they move to fucking North Korea or some shit ? No, they still wouldn't because America is the greatest fucking country on the planet (next to the brits, the spanish, and the austrailians)

End

-God bless America Mother Fuckers

[NinjZ]

I beleave the part about bush being friends with the binladen family is partially true. I remember hearing something about that before. Had something to do with oil sales and crap and after 911 bush granted safe travel for some of the binladen family that was in the U.S or some crap. I could be wrong though.

[Oroku Saki]

I think that the main point that Moore was trying to make was that the Saudis have a very large amount of money invested in our economy, which is true. He also illustrated the connections between the Bin Ladens and the Bush family, which has yet to be completely disputed, however I believe that the reason why Bush had connections with the other Bin Ladens was for business reasons, not to directly support Osama's terror network. In the film, they mentioned that most of the Bin Ladens have disowned Osama many years ago.

It makes sense that they allowed the Saudis and Bin Laden family to leave the country, because as soon as the public heard about Osama, people would most likely try hunting down his family and anyone else they thought were connected to him.

The main thing that really stands out in the movie is the war in Iraq. Tell me this: if getting rid of terrorism is important, why would we only send 10,000 troops to Afghanistan, where most of the key elements of Al-Queda is hiding, and then send 100,000+ troops to a country that had little or nothing to do with the terror networks in the first place? The reason why I state that Iraq may not have had significant connections to terrorism is because the Bush administration is still yet to prove these connections they have been accusing Saddam of before we went to war, and because more proof is surfacing that Iraq was not really a threat to the world.

When the US was first planning to invade Iraq, I was on the fence between supporting it and protesting it. It has been over a year now, and we still haven't found any Weapons of Mass Destruction™. As far as I am concerned, Bush decided to pull the strings of the US people to make them support the war in Iraq to further his business agenda, which I believe is one of the most key points Moore was trying to convey in his film.

Even before seeing F-9/11, I still hated Bush anyway, because I have found that in the end, many of his political decisions hold little to no actual grounding in terms of serving the American people or upholding the Constitution, which is what all presidents pledge to do when they are sworn into office to begin with.

[UpGraD3]

Check out this site http://www.michaelmo...atesamerica.com

EDIT: Props to Evil (got it from his profile on aim).

Edited by UpGraD3, 12 July 2004 - 01:37 PM.

[Oroku Saki]

Just because I think Moore made some very good points in his film does not necessarily mean that I agree with everything he says. Even though I do share many Liberal stances does not entirely make me one, because there are still several things that I do not agree with Liberals on. For example, I personally oppose gun control, because when criminals use guns, they do not give a shit about whether the guns they use are illegal or not. Also, one of the criminals' biggest fears is the possibility that their victims may be armed. I strongly support our 2nd ammendment rights, because we all have a right to defend ourselves, as well as have the necessary tools to accomplish this successfully.

Instead of just flaming Moore for his movie, we should look at the information he presents, and find out what is truth, and what is stretched and taken out of context. My decision to not support Bush is based on what I believe to be solid, verified evidence to why his actions should be looked down upon by the American people, not just because a political activist like Moore told me to. If you want to argue against the movie, argue against the points made in it, instead of just giving the "Michael Moore is a Liberal lunatic" excuse. If you want to convince me to even consider voting for Bush, I want undisputed reasoning and proof discrediting the claims of his connections to big businesses, and his using our patriotism to further his agenda. I strongly believe that Bush corrupted our country and is abusing his power as commander-in-chief.

Also, I have found that the Bush administration is looking to reinstate the Draft. You can find the proposed legislation under bills S89 and HR163 on the Official US Congress website at http://www.congress.gov

To find the bill, just do a search for either bill on the search box on the main page.

Hope you guys like forced military service designed to help Bush make more money.

Personally, I do not mind going into the military to serve my country (I have been considering joining the Air Force for several years), but I do not want to serve under a president who fucks with his country for money, and only money.

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 12 July 2004 - 02:22 PM.

[Spaztic 75]

Where do I start. How bout the fact that Bush sent us to war because of a family grudge putting his agenda in front of millions of lives. Maybe him starting a war over a terrorist attack which he had prior knowledge to. Or that he never helped these people with educational fund problems beacuase he lowered wealthy peoples income tax and you can get the same educational benifits in the army reserve when we're not at war.

[merlinski]

If Iraq is another battle in the war on terrorism, how come that Bush was asking his intelligence officials to find an excuse for a war before the war on terrorism was even declared? I have yet to hear an answer to that.

And I'm really fucking sick of the excuse "we had bad intelligence". I don't fucking care if you had bad intelligence, the Bush administration took action based on that intelligence, and in doing so made themselves directly responsible for its accuracy. If it was poor, then it's their fucking fault for making decisions based on crap intelligence.

[Oroku Saki]

I know I am posting alot on this topic, but I believe that this issue is very important to discuss. There is no doubt that Moore's movie was made to fuel the country's hatred for Bush. I find it interesting that the US Military is looking to screen the movie to the troops as well.

One of my friends is in the National Guard, and served in Iraq for 6 months (He was in basic training when his unit was deployed there). When my friend got back, he told me a little about his experiences there. Because he was deployed well after major combat was declared over, he did not see the same things the front lines did, but I do remember him mentioning the oil fields being protected.

In the movie, one of the soldiers stationed there guarding an oil field mentioned that the oil contractors get paid way more than the military did. Oil truck drivers in Iraq make upwards of $100,000 a year, while a soldier makes roughly $36,000. My friend also told me about this when he came back to the states a few months ago.

Tell me: What's wrong with this picture? Why are the oil guys from Halliburton getting paid way more than the soldier there who is supposed to be securing the newly freed nation of Iraq, the soldier who joined up to protect our freedoms? Do your research. Halliburtion's CEO was Dick Cheney a few years ago, and we all know what position he has in the Bush administration. It's not just Bush we should be worried about, but his entire administration.

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 12 July 2004 - 03:43 PM.

[Crankymonky]

Spaztic, I can't tell if some of your post is being sarcastic. If not, I believe quite the opposite on most things you mentioned.

Excellent points merlinki and Oroku

Edited by crankymonky, 12 July 2004 - 03:13 PM.

[Dan Wask]

I knew this was a mistake...

[Oroku Saki]

Actually, I was thinking about starting a thread on this before, but was unsure what would happen. Wask, I commend you for starting the topic here, but you should watch what you say.

Bush supporters, I want to know what you have to say about this whole thing. Please let me know if my reasoning is wrong, and why.

[Chrysophylax]

Heres the thing, When they were in detroit interviewing the people from the ghetto, why were they upset at the government for thier friends/family getting killed in Iraq/Afghanistan (I wasn't really watching) ?

Heres the thing, The wealthy can pay for thier education. The poor and sometimes middle class have trouble paying, forcing them to enlist sometimes for the hope of living through the war, and having an education. Moore seems to want us to think that we should all be equal economicly wise and thats just not fucking right.

If we were all equal in the money sense, then this would be a mother fucking communist country, which is something (god blessm) JFK was trying to fix. (Even though Johnson fucked up vietnam the fucktard)

-God bless America Mother Fuckers

You are a complete and utter asshole.

Why should the relatives be pissed at the government? Because the war is fucking pointless: their relatives are dying. This is bad. This could be solved if the war didn't happen.

Who goes to fight in these wars? Mostly poor people. This is bad. This could be solved by an equal distribution of wealth.

True communism = better than you.

[Crankymonky]

Keep it away from the whole communism debate! (I already won that for communism) We don't want to post random shit that has nothing to do with nerf and become NHQ, now do we...

NHQ is now having some intelligent things...Some...

Edited by crankymonky, 12 July 2004 - 03:55 PM.

[Oroku Saki]

I agree with Crankymonkey. Communism has nothing to do with this whole debate. What this thread should be about is the authenticity of the information shown in F-9/11, and whether the Bush administration's actions are truly justified for the American people.

I get sick of people who say that others are "unpatriotic" or "Communist" just because they do not approve of Bush's decisions during his term in office. I think that those types (those that label others without a good reason) should be beaten to death with sticks, or at the very least, told to shut the fuck up unless they have something intelligent to say.

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 12 July 2004 - 04:24 PM.

[The Fred]

I, too, saw F-911 having already made up my mind as to whom I am going to cast my vote for in November (Kerry). I found the movie interesting and, in many ways accurate. Although I do not like Michael Moore and find his radically-leftist agenda annoying and occasionally disgusting, he did an excellent job of portraying the ridiculous and befuddled nature of the Bush administration up to, during, and after the September 11th, attacks. The clips with that one border patrol agent -- who works part-time to cover a 50-mile-long stretch of land -- are not an isolated incident. Sure, give us a sugar-coated "Terror Alert Color Coded System" to let us know when we should be scared in an Elevated fashion and when we should be scared in a High fashion, but let's just leave the U.S.-Mexico and U.S. Canada (God, I hate those Canadians) borders open and understaffed for people to just waltz in.

Some of Moore's claims were ridiculous, though. What did you all think of the beginning clips from the section on Iraq; namely, the ones that showed happy Iraqi children playing in parks, and liberated, fearless women sipping coffee in outdoor cafes, apparently unfazed by Saddam Hussein's "benevolent" regime? Sure, we may have gone into Iraq based on Bush's personal agenda, but don't feed us B.S. stating that Saddam wasn't such a bad guy to his people. He did gas 10,000 Kurds (with our VX gas) because he didn't like the threat their religion posed on his Ba'athist regime.

The Fred

[rawray7]

I knew this was a mistake...

Why? Because people disagree with your post? Too bad.

What this thread should be about is the authenticity of the information shown in F-9/11...

You'll be glad to know that there are three teams of researchers checking everything in that movie, and so far the only mistake they've found was that the Saudis have an even bigger investment in businesses owned by Bush's family than Moore claimed in the movie.

I think the biggest criticism of Moore that I hear when discussing this movie with people is "He's so biased...even if Bush did anything good he'd criticize him." And what I tell these people is this - of course he's biased, why does that surprise you? Roger and Me, Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11- all of these look at a particular issue from one general point of view. I'm not saying that Moore doesn't try to look from both sides, but he chooses to present the other side of the argument either poorly or not in equal measure to his liberal points of view. That's what makes these movies interesting, some people argue they aren't documentaries, but their is no way to present something without a point of view, without a bias. We aren't buggers, the hive queen doesn't control our bodies, and we each have a different frame of reference - Michael Moore presents his, and that's why his movies sell, and that's how they prove a point. Believe me, you wouldn't want to watch a "completely unbiased" documentary. Even if that's possible, it would be the most painfully lame thing to sit through, ever. I agree, there were segments in 9/11 that were so liberal they were lame (i'm thinking of that overdub during bush's reading session during the attacks "what was he thinking? was Bush thinking about his ties to the saudi royal family?"...i just thought that the tone of the overdub was too critical and lame-sounding). If you're having trouble with his new movie, if you think it's not true, if you think he's ridiculously lame and biased - I think you guys should pick up some of Michael Moore's books, particularly Stupid White Men (much of what's in this book is in F-9/11). The books are very well researched, I was awed at the amount of information Moore was able to dig up. I also suggest to you "Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them", I haven't finished it yet, but its also very well researched, and hilarious.

On the other hand, I'm really dying to see Michael Moore Hates America. From the trailer it doesn't look nearly as well produced as Moore's movies, but I still want to see it because I think it'll be funny enough to be worth my $6.50

[THIRST]

Bush choked on a pretzel. There is no argument.

THIRST

[Vintage]

Sometimes I hate documentaries. For instance, I could go into a croud, interview a whole bunch of people, and then choose only the people who believe they have seen aliens for use in my documentary on the stability of the USA.

I have not seen Moore's documentary, but I don't care about such things. I try to look at the big picture, not just the people some guy chooses to interview.

~Vintage

[Oroku Saki]

Sometimes you need to see both sides of the story to get the big picture. I would rather be informed than ignorant, which is why I highly recommend that people see F-9/11, regardless of their political stances.

Sometimes I hate documentaries. For instance, I could go into a croud, interview a whole bunch of people, and then choose only the people who believe they have seen aliens for use in my documentary on the stability of the USA.

Doesn't the mainstream media do this anyway? Every view can be seen as biased, no matter how hard you try to convey your message. This is why I think Fox News's claims as "Fair and Balanced" is nothing but a fucking joke that too many people sadly buy into.

Like Rawray, I also look forward to seeing Michael Moore Hates America to see what the Conservatives have to say.

Also, in the news, Michael Moore stated that he gives the okay for file-sharers to distribute his film over the internet, as long as they do not profit from it. The article I read on this can be found here: http://www.sfgate.co...BUG267FNPT1.DTL

The film can be found all over the file-sharing networks, as well as over Bit Torrent.

When posting on this thread, I expected to see a nice, heated argument on this, but have yet to hear any good arguments from the other side. Come on, guys! Enlighten me!

Edited by Oroku_Saki, 13 July 2004 - 12:05 AM.

[taita cakes]

No, they still wouldn't because America is the greatest fucking country on the planet (next to the brits, the spanish, and the austrailians)

You just knew i was going to post in reply to that .... heh ....

I must stress, the best country in the world, would have to be .... Sweeden .... Think about it,
- the world's highest GNP [at my last glance in geography] which basically means a whole lot of moola....
- they are a peaceful, neutral country, who havn't been in a war for over a century...
- they have no real harmful download rules ... that's why people love sweedish hubs

And the list goes on...




I quite honestly havn't seen the film yet, but a few friends got it off P2P, as it's still yet to come out in Australia. I'm looking forward to it though, because hopefully the American's might see reason for such hate they have directed at them.

I'm not going to start a political conversation, but there are a lot of things wrong with western society and its leaders, the film will hopefully highlight them to some oblivious citizens .... the first person to question or comment on this remark, wins a complimentary kick in the teeth, for all runners up, i have a few prize packs sitting by, consisting of multiple cans of whoop-ass and some witty images...

You can, on the other hand, comment on your media. How much do you guys hear and see on Iraq, do you know that there suicide attacks and kidnappings nearly every day ... or is this simply edited/neglected ... I've seen the quality of news in America [i've been there myself] and i know its quite comprehensive, and everything is always a live report, but i thought there might be a bit more rebellion and hate for Bush and the current times if you guys were as informed as you can be.

I know even that sounds like a swipe at your government, but i simply want to know. Anyway, pay the man, see the film. Every ticket you buy goes towards another "enlightenning[sp]" film ...

EDIT: Okay, thats a bit of a contradiction, anyway, talk about government and politics, i don't care any more...

Edited by taita_cakes, 13 July 2004 - 02:43 AM.

[merlinski]

Like Rawray, I also look forward to seeing Michael Moore Hates America to see what the Conservatives have to say.

Me too. And unlike conservatives who criticize Michael Moore by saying "he's wrong" or "he's biased", I plan on actually taking notes and doing a step-by-step criticism and debunking of the movie.

[Vintage]

When posting on this thread, I expected to see a nice, heated argument on this, but have yet to hear any good arguments from the other side. Come on, guys! Enlighten me!

Sorry to disappoint you guys, but since I have not seen the movie, I don't feel qualified to remark on it.

~Vintage

[NinjZ]

Why does it matter if hes biased? Its his opinions...you dont have to agree or see the movie.

[Oroku Saki]

Personally, I am not directly supporting the movie because I agree with Moore, but I recommend that people watch it to encourage critical thinking. You don't have to go watch it, but I think it could be to your benefit.

Why be oblivious to the world around you, voting for a president that you do not really know about? Is it because of this whole, "We must support our president, no matter what he does" mentality that has infested our country over the last few years?

Would you seriously vote for an administration with a vice president who ran a corporation known to give bribes to international officials? A middle-eastern country becomes liberated, and who gets most or all of the reconstruction contracts for it? The same corporation that pays dividends to Cheney. Do you find this at least a little bit strange?

When the Bin Ladens were flown out of the country on September 13, 2001, why was the FBI given direct orders to leave them alone? After a crisis like this, isn't it standard procedure for the FBI to investigate any family members of the suspects?

In all of the criticism of F-9/11, all I have seen conservatives do is bash Moore. Are they running out of things to criticize about in his documentary, or are they just looking at the movie, not bother seeing it, and coming to the conclusion that it is a "biased piece of propaganda," therefore being hipoctitical about the film because they haven't actually seen it?

[Dan Wask]

Heres the thing, When they were in detroit interviewing the people from the ghetto, why were they upset at the government for thier friends/family getting killed in Iraq/Afghanistan (I wasn't really watching) ?

Heres the thing, The wealthy can pay for thier education. The poor and sometimes middle class have trouble paying, forcing them to enlist sometimes for the hope of living through the war, and having an education. Moore seems to want us to think that we should all be equal economicly wise and thats just not fucking right.

If we were all equal in the money sense, then this would be a mother fucking communist country, which is  something (god blessm) JFK was trying to fix. (Even though Johnson fucked up vietnam the fucktard)

-God bless America Mother Fuckers

You are a complete and utter asshole.

Why should the relatives be pissed at the government? Because the war is fucking pointless: their relatives are dying. This is bad. This could be solved if the war didn't happen.

Who goes to fight in these wars? Mostly poor people. This is bad. This could be solved by an equal distribution of wealth.

True communism = better than you.

If the war was so fucking pointless as you put it, and it was, then why the hell would they enlist if they knew thier was a chance of getting killed ? I agree, a government where everything is equal is a good concept, polititians agree, but it does not work. Its proven. Think of every communist country. Russia: ended up being poor and misguided because of communism.
North Korea: You know whats worse then getting shot ? Starving to death in the cold of the north korean mountains because of your communist leader fucking things up. Cuba: Poor, because the U.S cut off trade with them, thus leaving them poor because we don't have thier buisness.

You know what happend in Cuba once they became Communist ? Castro, and his leaders started a pool where you went to the government office, entered your name, came back the next day to find your new job and paycheck. Eye doctors being peditricians, construction workers being fishermen. Should a doctor that had to go out of country to earn a degree in neurology be earing the same wage as someone laying bricks ? No, because thats just not how things work.

I agree that the war sucks, but we were fucking screwed either way. If people
didn't enlist, then, there probably would have been a draft. And that sucks for everyone. My brother is 18, I would have been angry at the government for the same reasons. I have to retract what I said, because after further thinking, I agree, thier family members were being killed in combat, and I realize that now. But the thing is the way it was dEffeminateted in the movie was the main issue I was driving at.

The written word sucks balls. You have no real way of expressing emotion. I mean when I say I like goats, you would have no Idea that I was being sarcastic.

Also to rawray, no, I knew it was a mistake because I hate seeing people arguing mindlessly calling eachother assholes like children instead of debating like adults.
So, too bad for you that you didn't understand what I meant.