125 replies to this topic

[Draconis]

You have a PS48, right? Would you be able to compare these with its stock motors?

Er... Probably not. What is it?

Let's not start this again.

Well, yeah. It's okay, I don't want to scare off the new guy yet. He may be useful.


That said, so far, I really like this company's customer service. I ordered these motors on Friday and just received them now. Three days? Daaaaaang. If I can get my calculus homework done early enough (hahahahaha *breath* hahaha I kill me!) then I'll pull apart my kid's Rayven. Or maybe I should do a Barricade first? I have a few of them, so it will be immediately more obvious how much improvement there is.

[Nerfomania]

That said, so far, I really like this company's customer service. I ordered these motors on Friday and just received them now.

I really would just like to see these motors running on 4 trustfires (video from someone?). None of this 'Oh you have to go buy a LiPo Pack' BS. Many of us already have Trustfires and intend to just use those.

I look forward to what you think Draconis, these cheap motors seem like a great find if they work well.

[0reo]

I can understand the curiosity about using trustfires with these motors but don't misunderstand. They give a lot more performance then the stock motors on AAs. You could say they were designed for this. If Nerf didn't have lawyers and insurance companies to satisfy they'd have used this motor themselves.

ETA: I picked up some foam caulking backer today. I suppose I'll start playing with making darts for a bit. I can totally picture a stryfe blaster and magazine cut vertically and put back together shorter such that both mag and blaster use stefans. That's too much project for me though. 5yrs ago I'd have had it done already. These days my 16mo son keeps me focused on more important things.

Edited by 0reo, 04 February 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Crater]

Er... Probably not. What is it?

This.

[Zorns Lemma]

I can understand the curiosity about using trustfires with these motors but don't misunderstand. They give a lot more performance then the stock motors on AAs.

Wouldn't they burn through AAs within a few rounds nerfing? Have you measured how much power they draw while turning the stock flywheels?

[azrael]

I don't see what the big deal is with having to use a LiPo.
Trustfires just don't hav the current supply for many of the more powerful motors out there. It's a fact.

[Bobololo]

I don't see what the big deal is with having to use a LiPo.
Trustfires just don't hav the current supply for many of the more powerful motors out there. It's a fact.

A lot of people have Trustfires though. It's not that we despise LiPo, we just have Trustfires and would like to stick with them.

[Kyhan]

Alright, now that my question has been answered, and both NoM and Bobololo are backing it, I'm going to buy these and pop some trustfires in them.

[0reo]

Wouldn't they burn through AAs within a few rounds nerfing? Have you measured how much power they draw while turning the stock flywheels?

I haven't measured, and I have no idea how long AAs would last during a nerf battle. I don't nerf battle at all. I'm too old for that stuff. For me this is nothing more then a fun novelty that I harass my wife and our cats with. For my purposes a set of 2000mah Eneloop AAs last a week. So they're not burning through batteries like fire through tissue paper or anything. How big of a deal is it to swap batteries between rounds?

I don't see what the big deal is with having to use a LiPo.
Trustfires just don't hav the current supply for many of the more powerful motors out there. It's a fact.

Using a LiPo requires special chargers, special battery storage, modifying the battery compartment, carefully monitoring battery usage, etc. It will be fine for some people and there's definitely a battery performance advantage to those who go that route. But AAs are simple, easy, common, cheap, familiar, etc. I suppose among this crowd trustfires are similar, especially if a person already has them on hand.

I really hope the trustfires work. If the trustfires can deliver the current for these motors and the extra speed doesn't push the darts past their aerodynamic stability I think 100ft+ ranges are possible.

Edited by 0reo, 05 February 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Draconis]

This.

Ohhhhhh.... No, I don't. If I find one thrifting, though, I will pick it up.

Wouldn't they burn through AAs within a few rounds nerfing? Have you measured how much power they draw while turning the stock flywheels?

I'll measure the current today at work.


I installed a pair of motors in a Barricade last night and did a little testing.

Things I learned:
1) Pay attention to the direction of rotation, dummy.
2) Pay attention to the direction that the motor housing goes in to the shell, dummy.
3) These things spin a great deal faster than the stock motors, even with not-fresh batteries.
4) Ranges with the same batch of darts and the same batteries started at 30-40 feet from the stock Barricade and increased to 35-50 feet. The new ranges seem less consistent, but that may be a matter of needing to spin up to a higher velocity in between. I'd say that they are definitely worth the effort, though. I will look in to other applications as well.


UPDATE: Current measurements using the same three AA batteries->
Stock Barricade: 1.0A peak draw from rest, levels off down around 260mA.
Motor Replace Barricade: 2.6A Peak draw from rest, drops down below 1.0A, but bounces around a lot and the digital meter can't keep up. I will try taking it in to the electronic lab tomorrow after Dynamics class to see I can get a more stable reading from the analog meters.

Edited by Draconis, 05 February 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[azrael]

I haven't measured, and I have no idea how long AAs would last during a nerf battle. I don't nerf battle at all. I'm too old for that stuff. For me this is nothing more then a fun novelty that I harass my wife and our cats with. For my purposes a set of 2000mah Eneloop AAs last a week. So they're not burning through batteries like fire through tissue paper or anything. How big of a deal is it to swap batteries between rounds?



Using a LiPo requires special chargers, special battery storage, modifying the battery compartment, carefully monitoring battery usage, etc. It will be fine for some people and there's definitely a battery performance advantage to those who go that route. But AAs are simple, easy, common, cheap, familiar, etc. I suppose among this crowd trustfires are similar, especially if a person already has them on hand.

I really hope the trustfires work. If the trustfires can deliver the current for these motors and the extra speed doesn't push the darts past their aerodynamic stability I think 100ft+ ranges are possible.

You're using Eneloop batteries, which come in the AA package. But the way you say AAs, you make it sound like you're using standard AAs - which you're not. Eneloops are pretty much like a Trustfire. Just NiMH instead of Lithium Ion. You're just not overvolting it since Eneloop is 1.2V, whereas a Trustfire that nerfers generally use are 3.7V.
In fact, Eneloops can discharge more current than a the common Trustfire, I'm pretty sure.

You make the argument for a special charger, but rechargable batteries like Eneloop and Trustfires need one too. Granted, the a LiPi station is more expensive. I had LiPos lying around, and I have access to a charger. I never tried Trustfires because I didn't want to buy a new setup.


Another very important thing to remember that you guys are not taking into account is stall current.
You guys seem to be measuring continuous current draw, but motors need a lot of current to accelerate quickly in the beginning. That's why I decided to use a LiPo.
The Plasma Dash motor, for example, should have a stall current draw of around 10A. That's something a Trustfire will never be able to supply. And that's just one motor.
The Hyper Dash 2s I used should have around 4A stall current.
I just looked it up, these Solarbotics have a stall current of almost 5A at 4.5V. I expect the recovery time of these is a bit higher than stock motors.


I would like to see a video of 90' PTG ranges, the specs I was reading don't seem that crazy.
Also, I'm pretty sure the stock switches are only rated for about 2A, maybe 4A. Be careful with that stall current...

Draconis, I would also check the voltage when you're getting these voltages. See how much it drops when pulling a lot of current.

Edited by azrael, 05 February 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[0reo]

Sorry bud but NiMH eneloops ≠ trustfire LiFePO4 no way, no how.

I don't like your insinuation that I've been misleading. For the record the generic brand NiMH AAs I have work just as well. Alkalines will give the same dart distance but they run out of juice faster. I haven't tried lithium AAs yet but I'm sure they work as well or better then the NiMH.

As for 90ft ptg, I got what I got and found a decent motor in the process. Polulu.com had over 60 in stock when I made the OP and last I checked they had 5 in stock. That's plenty of folks that will be able to report their results. I'm sure someone will post a vid.

[azrael]

Sorry bud but NiMH eneloops ≠ trustfire LiFePO4 no way, no how.

I don't like your insinuation that I've been misleading. For the record the generic brand NiMH AAs I have work just as well. Alkalines will give the same dart distance but they run out of juice faster. I haven't tried lithium AAs yet but I'm sure they work as well or better then the NiMH.

As for 90ft ptg, I got what I got and found a decent motor in the process. Polulu.com had over 60 in stock when I made the OP and last I checked they had 5 in stock. That's plenty of folks that will be able to report their results. I'm sure someone will post a vid.

I'm pretty sure Alkalines do not have the same current capacity as a NiMH battery. High stall currents might not be able to be done by standard AAs, thus, recovery time increases.

It's not that you were misleading, but more so that it wasn't clear. No need to take offense.

90 feet is just pretty high, I'm just looking forward to some proof. So far my Stryfe has got about 70' PTG, with a few hitting 80' maybe. If those motors are all that and a bag of chips, awesome.
I'm gonna try some Tamiya Mach Dashes in a few days.

Edited by azrael, 05 February 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[0reo]

I'm pretty sure Alkalines do not have the same current capacity as a NiMH battery. High stall currents might not be able to be done by standard AAs, thus, recovery time increases.

It's not that you were misleading, but more so that it wasn't clear. No need to take offense.

90 feet is just pretty high, I'm just looking forward to some proof. So far my Stryfe has got about 70' PTG, with a few hitting 80' maybe. If those motors are all that and a bag of chips, awesome.
I'm gonna try some Tamiya Mach Dashes in a few days.

NiMH is capable of a little more current then alkalines but the biggest difference is that NiMH will have a longer charge life at the high amperage draw then the alkalines will.

You got 70-80ft ptg using what? Stock motors on stock voltage? Trustfires? Something else? I only got 60ft on stock motors and AAs.

The problem with the Tamiya Dash series of motors is that they're 3v motors. Any 3v motor will require twice as much amperage to do the same work as a 6v motor. The Dash motors are built for that kind of amperage of course but as you already know you'll have to use something other then AAs or Trustfires to supply that current.

[Draconis]

You're using Eneloop batteries, which come in the AA package. But the way you say AAs, you make it sound like you're using standard AAs - which you're not. Eneloops are pretty much like a Trustfire. Just NiMH instead of Lithium Ion. You're just not overvolting it since Eneloop is 1.2V, whereas a Trustfire that nerfers generally use are 3.7V.
In fact, Eneloops can discharge more current than a the common Trustfire, I'm pretty sure.

I am using standard alkaline AA batteries (Rayovac) rated at 1.5v, just do dispel whatever you are trying to cook up here.

You make the argument for a special charger, but rechargable batteries like Eneloop and Trustfires need one too. Granted, the a LiPi station is more expensive. I had LiPos lying around, and I have access to a charger. I never tried Trustfires because I didn't want to buy a new setup.

Typically, LiPo batteries are more expensive than any other type, and require a more expensive and singularly useful charger than any other type. At least with NiMH batteries, you can use them in your television remote and wireless mouse. All he is saying is that he doesn't see the need for his purposes. For new people buying one type of battery to use in all of their blasters? Sure, LiPos make sense. If you already have Li-Ion batteries, like Trustfires, then use them. The information I found within the independent reviews of Trustfires on DX indicated that the over current protection would allow 4A draw through full discharge. That's probably fine.

Another very important thing to remember that you guys are not taking into account is stall current.
You guys seem to be measuring continuous current draw, but motors need a lot of current to accelerate quickly in the beginning. That's why I decided to use a LiPo.

You'll notice that I gave both.

The Plasma Dash motor, for example, should have a stall current draw of around 10A. That's something a Trustfire will never be able to supply. And that's just one motor. The Hyper Dash 2s I used should have around 4A stall current.

Those sound like Ponies. Also, ridiculous requirements. Maybe that's a little much?

I just looked it up, these Solarbotics have a stall current of almost 5A at 4.5V. I expect the recovery time of these is a bit higher than stock motors.

I suppose it is possible, but not in the milliseconds that it takes for my DMM to read. Also, is this the chart you are referring to?

Draconis, I would also check the voltage when you're getting these voltages. See how much it drops when pulling a lot of current.

I assume you mean voltages while measuring these currents. The stock Barricade measures 4.65v at the batteries with the switch off, drops to 4.0v and climbs back up to about 4.4v at full speed. The modded unit shows 4.75v with the switch off (I don't know about the discrepancy, that's weird), drops to 3.05v while accelerating, and comes back up to 4.25 while running full speed.

[azrael]

Typically, LiPo batteries are more expensive than any other type, and require a more expensive and singularly useful charger than any other type. At least with NiMH batteries, you can use them in your television remote and wireless mouse. All he is saying is that he doesn't see the need for his purposes. For new people buying one type of battery to use in all of their blasters? Sure, LiPos make sense. If you already have Li-Ion batteries, like Trustfires, then use them. The information I found within the independent reviews of Trustfires on DX indicated that the over current protection would allow 4A draw through full discharge. That's probably fine.




You'll notice that I gave both.

I assume you mean voltages while measuring these currents. The stock Barricade measures 4.65v at the batteries with the switch off, drops to 4.0v and climbs back up to about 4.4v at full speed. The modded unit shows 4.75v with the switch off (I don't know about the discrepancy, that's weird), drops to 3.05v while accelerating, and comes back up to 4.25 while running full speed.

I suppose it is possible, but not in the milliseconds that it takes for my DMM to read. Also, is this the chart you are referring to?

Yes, that's one chart I saw. It shows 4.93A for 5V there, but on another site, it said it was 4.5V. Motor specs are pretty hard to find on the internet haha.
Stall current happens pretty quick, I think. I know you measured peak current draw, but I don't know if a multimeter can display it quickly enough without averaging out the samples.
I just work out the rough math for stall current based on current charts and increasing voltage (typical Tamiya specs are at 2.4V).

The voltmeter I put into my gun is pretty crude, but with a battery measured at 4.2V out of circuit, it shows a I think 3.6V when rapid firing, and just 3.9V when just running or after one or two shots. If I press the acceleration button with no clip, it reads 4.1V still.
Just to give you my experience with the LiPo.

Those sound like Ponies. Also, ridiculous requirements. Maybe that's a little much?

The Plasma Dashes don't sound any louder than an overvolted Rayven at 16V, I think. YMMV.
Also current requirements are pretty typical, for more powered up motors.

That said, I think the Plasma Dashes actually run too hot, temperature wise, for use in an plastic enclosure like this haha.
The Mach Dashes I got seem much more manageable, and are pretty close to the Hyper Dash 2s in terms of power requirements.

I am using standard alkaline AA batteries (Rayovac) rated at 1.5v, just do dispel whatever you are trying to cook up here.

How long do the motors take to spin up or recover on the Alkaline?
Not trying to "cook up" anything here. I want an awesome gun as much as you guys haha. I just want consistent results to decide for myself. I'm hearing different ranges with essentially the same motors in a similar setup. There shouldn't be a 40 foot difference in the two sets of results. Just saying.

NiMH is capable of a little more current then alkalines but the biggest difference is that NiMH will have a longer charge life at the high amperage draw then the alkalines will.

You got 70-80ft ptg using what? Stock motors on stock voltage? Trustfires? Something else? I only got 60ft on stock motors and AAs.

The problem with the Tamiya Dash series of motors is that they're 3v motors. Any 3v motor will require twice as much amperage to do the same work as a 6v motor. The Dash motors are built for that kind of amperage of course but as you already know you'll have to use something other then AAs or Trustfires to supply that current.

Just saw this post.
70-80 feet using Tamiyas and a LiPo, like I said in the thread I have which you posted in before haha. Sorry for assuming it would still be fresh in your memory, that was my mistake.
I don't think the Stryfe can do 60 feet at stock. I didn't test mine with the stock setup for long, but that seems to be the average range of one overvolted to 12V, based on other tests I have seen conducted.
Are you actually measuring? Or just guessing? I thought mine was hitting 90, but upon measurement, it was more like 80 at peak distance, with high 60s and 70s on average.

Also, I brought up the current thing because based on the specs, like in the chart posted by Draconis, current draw is reaching a level that could potentially burn out the stock switches, even with your voltage setup. It's just a word of warning.

Edited by azrael, 05 February 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[0reo]

Just saw this post.
70-80 feet using Tamiyas and a LiPo, like I said in the thread I have which you posted in before haha. Sorry for assuming it would still be fresh in your memory, that was my mistake.
I don't think the Stryfe can do 60 feet at stock. I didn't test mine with the stock setup for long, but that seems to be the average range of one overvolted to 12V, based on other tests I have seen conducted.
Are you actually measuring? Or just guessing? I thought mine was hitting 90, but upon measurement, it was more like 80 at peak distance, with high 60s and 70s on average.

Also, I brought up the current thing because based on the specs, like in the chart posted by Draconis, current draw is reaching a level that could potentially burn out the stock switches, even with your voltage setup. It's just a word of warning.

The 60ft mark was just off-hand and measured crudely. If you say it's less then that then I'll take your word for it. I very likely had some arc on the trajectory for those shots.

[Coop]

I recorded a test of the motors mentioned in this thread. In the video, I fire a few darts at 12v and 8v as well as a blaster with the stock motors running on 16v as a comparison. My firing test is really just to check the torque on the motors and how they handle operation under rapid fire.



After about 30 seconds of operating the new motors on 12v from three UltraFires, I could smell something beginning to melt or burn. This is generally a sign to stop whatever you're doing when working with motors, so I won't be running on 12v in the future.

The initial velocity does seem to be higher with the new motors running on 8 and 12 volts. 12 volts obviously giving better velocities. I tried the Tamiya Hyper Dash motors mentioned in another thread and the motors mentioned in this thread are significantly better for our Nerf use. The Tamiya motors seemed to have a higher RPM which would give a better first shot, but the follow up shots were absolute shit compared to these or even the stock motors.

Overall I'm happy with the motors. For the cost, they give great performance. Great find, Oreo - thanks for sharing the link with us!

[Kyhan]

Coop, which would you say works better: The motors from your writeup on 16v or the motors listed here running on 12v?

I'm considering which motors to install in my Stryfe and Rayven. I wanted to use the ones here, but if these motors are just going to crap out on me quickly (and under less voltage), I'd rather go for motors that can take a bigger beating while still giving me a similar increase in speed and range, and just bear with the shell modding.

Edited by Kyhan, 06 February 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Coop]

Coop, which would you say works better: The motors from your writeup on 16v or the motors listed here running on 12v?

I'm considering which motors to install in my Stryfe and Rayven. I wanted to use the ones here, but if these motors are just going to crap out on me quickly (and under less voltage), I'd rather go for motors that can take a bigger beating while still giving me a similar increase in speed and range, and just bear with the shell modding.

I'm seeing better results from these motors than the ones from my write-up. The motors I originally used in the write up were better than the stock motors in durability, but they didn't really increase performance. I'm seeing a better initial velocity with the motors from this thread.

Not having to modify the shell is a huge bonus, too.

[azrael]

I tried the Tamiya Hyper Dash motors mentioned in another thread and the motors mentioned in this thread are significantly better for our Nerf use. The Tamiya motors seemed to have a higher RPM which would give a better first shot, but the follow up shots were absolute shit compared to these or even the stock motors.

I posted a video where you can see that my shots are pretty consistent, don't know if you saw it in my thread.
Did you perhaps leave the thermistor in? That would make subsequent shots worse.


Any range measurements for these motors?

[0reo]

I'm hearing different ranges with essentially the same motors in a similar setup. There shouldn't be a 40 foot difference in the two sets of results. Just saying.

Azrael, I believe you were referring to this post:

I installed a pair of motors in a Barricade last night and did a little testing.[…]

[…]4) Ranges with the same batch of darts and the same batteries started at 30-40 feet from the stock Barricade and increased to 35-50 feet. The new ranges seem less consistent, but that may be a matter of needing to spin up to a higher velocity in between.

The discrepency is at least partly due to the fact that the Barricade blaster Dracconis is using only takes three AAs, whereas the Stryfe I used takes four AAs. The extra battery / voltage would be significant.

Edited by 0reo, 10 February 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[Joe Espinoza]

Just ordered 6 of these bad boys (:

Don't post for the sake of posting; only post if you have something to say, i.e. contribute.

Edited by Zorn's Lemma, 24 February 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[0reo]

Anyone have any of their own performance results to report on? You guys bought up over 60 of these things. Someone's gotta have something to say about it.

[HOTH]

Anyone have any of their own performance results to report on? You guys bought up over 60 of these things. Someone's gotta have something to say about it.

I will have an extensive writeup involving these motors completed and posted for the Mod Contest by Tuesday. I can record a bunch of different stats in my testing when everything is up and running. There are some neat intricacies to the mod, as well.