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Alternative Ammo


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#26 shmmee

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:27 PM

Okay, let's get to brass tacks. I'm willing to start a group buy of these from Cabby's, then send them off to interested parties for R&D. This way, we won't be talking out our posteriors about theory. Anyone interested? Price will be my cost ($0.02 each) + S&H.

I'm thinking of buying 20g for use in 1/2" PVC, because I don't have anything barreled in 3/4" PVC, or ending in a 3/4" coupler, but I'll buy a bag of 12g if we get enough people to take at least half the bag ($5 for 100) off my hands.


Still concerned about the legality of it, but curiosity is also getting the better of me. I'll take 100 of the 1/2" variety, and consult with a gun nut friend of mine. Shoot me a Pm with a pay pal address when you have them available for sale.
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#27 taerKitty

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:37 PM

Okay, I'm up to buying two bags of the 20 gauge plugs. I'll work out the details in private, but it looks like we'll have more than a few sources of hard, real-world data very, very soon.

===

Edit: Math fail. I mis-remembered them as 200 per bag instead of 500. Anyhow, a coworker may be going by the local one this weekend.

---

I started a trading thread for the group buy.

---

Also, @PVC Arsenal 17 - am I on crack or did your OP used to talk about 12 gauge wads and 3/4" PVC?

Edited by taerKitty, 07 November 2011 - 09:46 PM.

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#28 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:03 PM

Not the OP but a reply to a comment.

Don't quote me on it but I've been told that 12ga wads work in 3/4" Type L copper and 3/4" sch80 PVC.

I'm also working out the distribution of some samples over PM.

For the record, the tests were done by blowing air into a pipe through a compressor nozzle at 125psi. Typically those blowguns are rated for 11cfm @ 100psi.

Edited by PVC Arsenal 17, 07 November 2011 - 10:07 PM.

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#29 shardbearer

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:10 PM

Taer, you got your PVC schedules mixed up. The barrels these fit in are 20g in Sch 40 1/2", and 12g in Sch 80 3/4". And dont forget to fix the trading thread too.
And I would suggest trying to cut off different sections of these and seeing how they work. Maybe one with only 1/2" of petals left, one with everything in front of the petals cut off, and one with the lip on the front cut off (kinda like making converted taggers). Shorter darts mean more fit in a hopper, and more plastic cut off means less weight.
As to the petals expanding with backpressure helping the seal, as the petals expand the slots between them widen, making the petals a pretty bad seal.

Edited by shardbearer, 07 November 2011 - 10:10 PM.

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#30 taerKitty

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:49 PM

Sounds good. I'm buying (and selling ) 20 gauge wads, so we'll just use sched 40 1/2" PVC. Thanks!
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#31 Swiftone1990

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 11:23 PM

Another thing to consider is that there are many different designs for shotgun wadding. The part between the petals and the cup is shaped different in different brands and for different uses.

edit:
Sample of 20 gauge wads
http://www.ballistic...ds/products/89/

Edited by Swiftone1990, 07 November 2011 - 11:44 PM.

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#32 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:18 AM

Another thing to consider is that there are many different designs for shotgun wadding. The part between the petals and the cup is shaped different in different brands and for different uses.

edit:
Sample of 20 gauge wads
http://www.ballistic...ds/products/89/



The unslit cylindrical variety is of great interest to me. If the OD is the same, it would be more suited for an autoloader due to the inherently more rigid structure. But at much greater cost it seems...

Edited by PVC Arsenal 17, 08 November 2011 - 12:18 AM.

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#33 shardbearer

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:31 PM

And it would (theoretically, assuming all other things stay the same) get a better seal.
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#34 nerfnut23

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:26 PM

Keep in mind the petals will press outward against the barrel with backpressure. The effect won't be as great as with foam, but it's something. If necessary the petal section could be plugged with foam to encourage constant outward pressure. But that knocks the weight up some...


But, if you don't glue it in it's disposable ammo that works because you retrieve them seperately (or leave the foam there.)
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#35 FromChaosXIII

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:52 PM

I Believe its a good idea to find a new stock dart because the foam is fragile and wears out but i dont think an all plastic dart would work or be the same

Good idea though

i have my own ammo which i make from sonics or taggers

i will post directions tomorrow
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#36 Ozymandias

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 09:11 PM

i have my own ammo which i make from sonics or taggers

i will post directions tomorrow


I'm going to save you from getting a suspension.

Dartsmithing Thread.

I'm willing to bet what you make are CDTS. They've been done since before you learned to use a computer.
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#37 taerKitty

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:04 AM

Back on topic, I just heard from a Sporean, and these things aren't allowed in .SG. No, not playing armchair lawyer, just adding a piece of hard data.

My friend is heading Cabela's way later today, and we'll see if he has the time to pick them up. The Group Buy is picking up steam. I think I have 600 of these requested so far.

If he doesn't snag them, I'll have them mail-ordered by tomorrow.
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#38 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:01 PM

I messed around a bit more today using a rig I had sitting around with a 10ci chamber and a 1" modified sprinkler valve with the same 3' barrel as before. At 125 psi, the velocities from this setup were high enough to induce the same tumbling I observed earlier except this time I used hot glue-filled wads exclusively. After toning the pressure down a bit (no numbers, sorry. I did this by bleeding air through the pilot and the rig I used had no gauge) I was getting ranges from 130-145 feet held flat at shoulder level (I'm 6'1" to put it into perspective).

The tumbling is clearly related to mass vs. velocity so considering you guys have expressed concerns about weight already, I would say 140 feet is about the peak range corresponding to whatever the maximum allowable velocity is for a glue-filled wad. Someone with a chrono could establish that figure but there is, without a doubt, a point at which higher velocity starts to produce poor results.

That said, you could mix in a bb or washer with the hot glue to allow higher velocities and thus higher ranges, but then you'd be toying with kinetic energies unfit for Nerf.

As it is now, they already hit harder than stefans. These wads can only offer the same ranges as stefans if you're willing to accept that.


I was rather excited to see that the wads held up shot after shot and even when they got deformed from hitting a metal plate at 20 feet, they still maintained acceptable accuracy. If you take the time to straighten out the petals first, these things shoot like lasers.

I can see deformation being a problem though. If you step on one, it'll get pretty jacked up and you may not be able to fix it. For me that's no problem; I never intended to pick them up. Their low cost means disposability which appeals to me.

Edited by PVC Arsenal 17, 09 November 2011 - 11:14 PM.

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#39 Kyrativ

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 12:37 AM

Briefly scanned through this topic, all i have to say is;

when I joined nerf every other post used the word "foam" we used it like the smurf language. My personal beliefs are that we should stick to our 90's roots of flinging foam at friends from foam filled firearms, what an alliteration! This is, however, an impressive device for measuring the maximum capabilities of modded blasters but should be left out of wars.
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#40 shardbearer

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 07:50 PM

I like how accurate they are, it makes nerfing require more skill and spray and pray and shotgun blasts become less effective, and the more commonly found barrel material should help those just joining the sport. Since I do not have any here, can you test these in a standard nerf blaster instead of compressed air with a sprinkler valve so that we have something to compare it with? Or maybe test stefans using your same setup? And can you try cutting off different parts of them to see what works and what doesn't?
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#41 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:34 PM

Turns out the red 28ga. wads are a direct replacement for stock darts... In my firefly at least. I now have 500 rounds for $10. I'll need to pad to the tips before using them in HvZ, but I'm thrilled. Flight characteristics are nearly identical to stock darts, perhaps short by 5 feet but pack a more satisfying punch.

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#42 taerKitty

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:43 PM

Turns out the red 28ga. wads are a direct replacement for stock darts.

Do you have a set of calipers? I'd love to know how wide they are. I'll ask my friend to pick up some 28 ga wads if they're a good size.

As an aside, 4 x 100 packs are in the mail to various folks. Hopefully, we'll start seeing more empirical data soon.
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#43 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 05:54 PM

Roughly 0.54" at the widest part (tip). The Firefly barrels are two-tiered. The smaller diameter is meant to accommodate the foam while the larger diameter is meant to accommodate the suction cup tip. Sometimes the tip of the wads doesn't make it into the smaller diameter, sometimes it does. Performance is not affected by this. I suspect the Firefly barrels are the source of the inconsistency, but I'm sure the wads play a part too. Either way, they fit well and fly well.

I have no other Nerf guns to try out but I'm expecting they'll be a good fit across all the non-mag-fed spring guns.

Posted Image

Edit: I found my NF and shot myself a few times at 6". The welts attest to the fact that these are NOT on the same safety level as stock darts and they will need to be padded. Ranges from my NF are no better than my Firefly, though my NF usually has a good 20 feet on my firefly with stock darts. I must be hitting that velocity cap again.

Posted Image

Edited by PVC Arsenal 17, 17 November 2011 - 06:14 PM.

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#44 Doom

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:49 PM

I've been busy and have not had a good opportunity to reply until now.

I'm interested in the idea of alternative ammo, but I'm not sure if this would be our best bet. Certainly, it's promising. But the welts make me a little worried. I think these are probably too heavy and too hard.

Some sort of soft plug (marshmallows?) stuck into a thin tube (like a straw) would be preferable in my opinion. Thin tubes can easily be cut and they will not weigh much.

Edit: Take a thin tube. Plug up one end with foam. Put a weight in the other end and let it fall down all the way. Hold it in place with foam on the other end. How does that sound?

Edited by Doom, 17 November 2011 - 08:54 PM.

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#45 nerfnut23

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 01:29 AM

Roughly 0.54" at the widest part (tip). The Firefly barrels are two-tiered. The smaller diameter is meant to accommodate the foam while the larger diameter is meant to accommodate the suction cup tip. Sometimes the tip of the wads doesn't make it into the smaller diameter, sometimes it does. Performance is not affected by this. I suspect the Firefly barrels are the source of the inconsistency, but I'm sure the wads play a part too. Either way, they fit well and fly well.

I have no other Nerf guns to try out but I'm expecting they'll be a good fit across all the non-mag-fed spring guns.

Posted Image

Edit: I found my NF and shot myself a few times at 6". The welts attest to the fact that these are NOT on the same safety level as stock darts and they will need to be padded. Ranges from my NF are no better than my Firefly, though my NF usually has a good 20 feet on my firefly with stock darts. I must be hitting that velocity cap again.


The ironic thing here is the fact that these are all plastic, which is hard, whereas we were originally basically shooting ourselves with chunks of lead and hot glue (since that's what hit first) for years.

This shotgun wad idea has a good amount of potential. The only problem comes in the fact they're not aerodynamic 'cause of the hollow spot (fixable with some E-tape) and putting a little hot glue in the tip could solve the welt problem. Or at least make them comparable to a hotglue stefan.
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#46 taerKitty

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:20 AM

The only problem comes in the fact they're not aerodynamic 'cause of the hollow spot (fixable with some E-tape) and putting a little hot glue in the tip could solve the welt problem. Or at least make them comparable to a hotglue stefan.


Well, there are a few other problems -

- they don't work in hoppers

- they have mass of 2g as-is

- adding hot glue may make them top 3g

- they're not as easily found as FBR

- you may have to be 18 to buy them in some areas

- other areas don't allow them (they're evidently not allowed in SG, and Cabela's will not ship them to DC or MA)

Still, I think they show enough promise that I want to explore them further.
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#47 nerfnut23

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:10 PM

Well, there are a few other problems -

- they don't work in hoppers

- they have mass of 2g as-is

- adding hot glue may make them top 3g

- they're not as easily found as FBR

- you may have to be 18 to buy them in some areas

- other areas don't allow them (they're evidently not allowed in SG, and Cabela's will not ship them to DC or MA)

Still, I think they show enough promise that I want to explore them further.


Then we just stick a bit of FBR in the tip to absorb some of the impact...

Yeah, hoppers aren't a good idea with these. they're far too stiff to bend into a different hole and in, but sliding consecutively into the same one (ala an RSCB) would be a good idea...
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#48 PVC Arsenal 17

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:47 AM

28ga wads are getting 25-30 feet from a Jolt with the AR removed (a necessary modification).

BTW the Jolt is an astounding little blaster and it's worth it to buy and carry several of them.
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#49 nerfnut23

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:31 PM

28ga wads are getting 25-30 feet from a Jolt with the AR removed (a necessary modification).

BTW the Jolt is an astounding little blaster and it's worth it to buy and carry several of them.


Or stick the plungers on the bottom of a Crossbow so you have a backup shotgun.
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#50 DeathTrap2468

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:41 AM

Well, there are a few other problems -

- they don't work in hoppers


The thing is, they don't need to work in hoppers. Yes, it may cause some trouble, but with these, you can easily make box mags, or even tube mags. With the box mags, they will not bend like streamlines do in a Clip-system mag, therefore increasing functionality and capacity. Another feature that is also easily over-looked as a bad thing is the weight. Yes, it may not get as much velocity, but what it lacks in velocity, it makes up for in accuracy. In a perfect world, heavier weighted rounds always have more accuracy than lighter weighted rounds.

Edited by DeathTrap2468, 21 November 2011 - 06:03 PM.

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