27 replies to this topic

[Dyxlesic]

"Why the heck did you start a new topic?" So i started a discussion over how to reduce friction on a valve, and we eventually started talking about completely different valves i was gonna need to prefect my semi auto firefly. In order to finish by big secret project, im gonna have to share it with the world.

So I know almost every nerf part inside and out, but when it comes to manufactured valves and hardware, im completely clueless. I need you people who know what you are doing *cough-captainslug-cough-angel-cough-split-cough* to help me out. Im almost certain every part i need exists, i just dont know what it is, what its called, or what its part numbers is.

Heres my pretty, colorful picture. the thin-lined little box is the part that will be revieled if the battery cover is removed. Each different hose (thick line) has a different color so you we dont get lost when they cross. If the picture doesn't make sense, read the descriptions below. (note that this is not made exactly to scale or anything like that. its just here to show what im doing)

The grey part of the stock has been removed, and replaced with the tank. only one side of the shell will be glued to the tank
(missing)=tell me what it is
(found)= i know what it is

the different valves are colored. here is the function planed for each valve:

Grey(found): Magstrike valve. Im so smart

Green(missing): a port where i can quickly connect/disconnect an extra tank if i need it, such as a backpack, or an airtank on my golfcart. A built in check valve would be nice, but if it doesnt have one built in, please list a check valve that will work with it

Red (missing): Regulator. I plan to drill a hole in the side of the shell, and poke the regulator out. I want to be able to adjust the power of it on the fly in the middle of a war. Im hoping for something similar to the switch on a RF20 (except a regulator instead of just a choke) where i can turn it to one position for high power, and another position for low power. (i do realize that if i decrease the pressure setting on a regulator, that it will not decrease the setting on the output side untill after the output side has been emptied. therefore, the pressure change, if it is a decrease, will not be applied untill the second shot)

Blue(found):3 way valve shown here


Light blue(missing): an input valve found on car tires and bike tires

Purple(found): a regulator for the ARSCB. Doom showed me a typical non relieving regulator

If you know what any of the missing valves are, tell me please
All help is appreciated

[ricochet]

I know mcmaster sells "mini" regulators. Regardless of the word "mini" the still take up a chunk of space. They also come with barbed input and output ends. They aren't cheap, running around $20.11(I haven't found regulators anywhere else, and I have done some searching for my "secret project"). I hope this little tidbit of information is of use to you.

-Ricochet

[TantumBull]

Your air assisted inline clip is pretty reminiscent of a BBB mod Carrtoon did a while back. I always thought it was a neat idea and am glad to see someone bring it back. Maybe someone less lazy than me can link the thread I'm referring to.

[Dyxlesic]

Your air assisted inline clip is pretty reminiscent of a BBB mod Carrtoon did a while back. I always thought it was a neat idea and am glad to see someone bring it back. Maybe someone less lazy than me can link the thread I'm referring to.

I dont know what thread you are talking about, but here is a link to my guide to the ARSCB and AIC. If you have questions on it you can email or pm me, and I will gladly answer them. I would rather this thread stay on the topic of the valves as opposed to the ARSCB.
http://nerfhaven.com...=20808&hl=ARSCB

[Boot]

I know I've been saying this in pretty much every semi-automatic build thats spawned after the Mirage-SS, but I highly recommend a bladder of some sort rather than a hard tank. I experimented with a hard tank, and both the pumping time and range suffered dramatically (on the order of 80 pumps to fill a 0.5L hard tank to usable pressures for 4 consecutive shots)! With a MS or RF20 bladder you could definitely empty the entire turret on one fill, and get consistent ranges with an average of about 2-3 pumps per shot.

Another possibility would be to have the bladder built in, and then have a toggle that will allow you to "turn off" the bladder, and use a gigantic backpack sized hard tank when you feel like demolishing small buildings with you're creation.

As for the "green" component, I suggest an air compressor cable. Buy a few 1m lengths, and each length will come with a male and female quick release port. In China the "female" port has a built in valve that only allows air to flow when the "male" port is inserted. (I should probably have phrased that in a less joke-prone form...)

Also, just a final note, I tried to put the original Mirage-ss into a Maverick to use the turret, but found the ranges to be greatly reduced from the 80 feet achieved by an RSCB. That may just be my inability to cope with turret seals, but if you find the ranges lacking, both longer barrels (which are easily achieved on a firefly) and a banded bladder will greatly help with ranges.

I really love your use of the ARSCB as a sort of back up "scatter shot", I may have to experiment with putting one on the Mirage 2.0!

[Dyxlesic]

I know I've been saying this in pretty much every semi-automatic build thats spawned after the Mirage-SS, but I highly recommend a bladder of some sort rather than a hard tank. I experimented with a hard tank, and both the pumping time and range suffered dramatically (on the order of 80 pumps to fill a 0.5L hard tank to usable pressures for 4 consecutive shots)! With a MS or RF20 bladder you could definitely empty the entire turret on one fill, and get consistent ranges with an average of about 2-3 pumps per shot.

Another possibility would be to have the bladder built in, and then have a toggle that will allow you to "turn off" the bladder, and use a gigantic backpack sized hard tank when you feel like demolishing small buildings with you're creation.

As for the "green" component, I suggest an air compressor cable. Buy a few 1m lengths, and each length will come with a male and female quick release port. In China the "female" port has a built in valve that only allows air to flow when the "male" port is inserted. (I should probably have phrased that in a less joke-prone form...)

Also, just a final note, I tried to put the original Mirage-ss into a Maverick to use the turret, but found the ranges to be greatly reduced from the 80 feet achieved by an RSCB. That may just be my inability to cope with turret seals, but if you find the ranges lacking, both longer barrels (which are easily achieved on a firefly) and a banded bladder will greatly help with ranges.

I really love your use of the ARSCB as a sort of back up "scatter shot", I may have to experiment with putting one on the Mirage 2.0!

I wanted to put a bladder in it, but I can't find a way to do it because of the design/I can't find a place to put it. If you have an idea, speak up. If I used a solid tank and a regulator, I would get a bigger supply and more consistency. The firefly has a seal that came with it. The external airtank valve will lead directly into the air tank, so it will refil the tank as I fire. I will look into the valve you suggested. Yea, a semi auto primary with full auto secondary built in is pretty nice isn't it?

[Boot]

I wanted to put a bladder in it, but I can't find a way to do it because of the design/I can't find a place to put it. If you have an idea, speak up. If I used a solid tank and a regulator, I would get a bigger supply and more consistency. The firefly has a seal that came with it. The external airtank valve will lead directly into the air tank, so it will refil the tank as I fire. I will look into the valve you suggested. Yea, a semi auto primary with full auto secondary built in is pretty nice isn't it?

I don't see why a bladder won't go where you have the hard tank in your design now. Just sheathe it in some PVC for general protection (from being bashed around and from UV rays), and it will look almost identical externally to your hard tank design (also, although I have no experience in this, homemade bladders are also a viable option).

As for a large volume hard tank with a regulator, you will need to greatly over-pressurize the container to get a usable number of consistent shots. This means take a very long time to fill! (unless you will be using an industrial air compressor to do it). It certainly will not be any more consistent, and depending on the size probably won't allow for many more shots before pressure drops below usable levels. I encourage you to do some tests before finalizing the idea.

I may be misunderstanding what you meant by "directly connected to the tank" but it seems to me that a direct connection to the tank would make the valve design pointless. Each firing of the tank would waste quite a bit of air from the tank, further lowering the number of usable shots per fill.

Anyway, good luck with the project, I look forwards to seeing where this project goes.

[shmmee]

Like boot i'd suggest a pnumatic air hose quick disconnect for the green part. (they're very common, and therefor cheap. Especially from harbor freight - if you have any locally) The female side has a check valve that closes when not plugged in. Though to keep the tank or pack pack side from from emptying when unplugged you'll need some sort of ball valve on the male side. I dont know any part numbers, but a threaded ball valve should from a local hardware store should work ok. (If you can figure out how to connect it to tubing) the ball valve/male connection might be better in the firefly side.

I would almost suggest adding the back pack tank as version 2.0, and just keeping it simple for now. You can always cut a hose and insert a tee later with the air hose quick disconnect. Get the thing running first. Don't over complicate in your initial build.

I favor a bladder vs a hard tank. True a MS bladder wouldn't fit inside the firefly shell, but a hard tank might not fit too well either. It would be easy enough to lop off the MS bladder shell portion and glue it externally under at the bottom of the firefly. (external integration). You'll be sacrificing a MS anyway for the valve. You might not get enough volume with a hard tank stored in the rear of the firefly shell. It would be wise to experiment with both without integrating anything or chopping any holes. It would also remove the regulator from the equation.

Good luck with it all.

[Dyxlesic]

Alright. I now know what I need for the green valve. Thanks. I think I might just give up on the "Qucik adjust power" feature and just stick with a regulator Ill just set once, unless someone has any better ideas on how to do it.

On the bladder/airtank with regulator discussion, I have heard alot from both sides. I have no idea on which would be better for this situation

[Boot]

Alright. I now know what I need for the green valve. Thanks. I think I might just give up on the "Qucik adjust power" feature and just stick with a regulator Ill just set once, unless someone has any better ideas on how to do it.

On the bladder/airtank with regulator discussion, I have heard alot from both sides. I have no idea on which would be better for this situation

If you are willing to settle for a single power setting, then the bladder itself will act as a regulator, the MS bladder holds a constant pressure of about 35PSI.

I don't know what you have heard about hard tanks, and I have little practical experience with hard tanks, but in general they are only effective on a very large scale, where they are filled by compressor (like Captain Slug's hard tank). If you are using a hand pump (like you seem to be in the picture), then a bladder is much better in this case due to a more efficient pumping to firing ratio.

Hard tanks are easier to make well, and generally stronger, but in terms of performance are severely lacking, and cannot compare to a bladder in either efficiency or consistency.

[utahnerf]

If you were ever to use a pump, use a beastly bike floor pump and a backpack with double pvc air tanks. Nerf pumps are horrible for this. You have to pump like hell. Believe me, I've tried.

Edited by utahnerf, 17 February 2011 - 09:20 PM.

[Doom]

To respond to something in the other thread, I'm sure you can find a regulator where you can draw lines on the knob and casing to see where to turn the knob. Personally, though, I wouldn't bother with that and just watch the pressure gauge.

Also, I’m not sure you could fit a PVC tank in a Firefly like that. I might suggest running something along the top above the inline clip.

Boot, have you ever used a regulator? Any good regulator will basically lock on to the set pressure. Bladders on the other hand have a pressure that drops perhaps 25% or more as it is emptied. Regulators are definitely more consistent, and that is one of the advantages of hard tanks with regulators over bladders.

Also, there are many distinct disadvantages with bladders that must be taken into account. I don't use bladders for Nerf for safety reasons. Have you ever burst a bladder when it was full of compressed gas? You'll know as soon as it happens. It's basically as loud as a shotgun. This can and will cause hearing loss. Also, bladders fatigue (i.e. wear out), reducing the pressure they generate. This means bladders need to be eventually replaced. Hasbro does seem to try to slow the process of wear down by reducing expansion, but even that won't make the bladder last as long as most Nerfers might need it.

Contrast that with hard tanks. Well made hard tanks will not fatigue and are unlikely to break even when used improperly.

Dyxlesic, I’ve already suggested a hard tank with a regulator for you, but I’d still like to note that those who argue for bladders in most cases don’t seem to know that much about the available options, and you should note that when considering their opinions. If these people were actually proponents of bladders, they would use latex tubing instead of cannibalizing Magstrikes and other blasters. This not only is far cheaper, but it allows one to make a high volume bladder, and it also allows a good amount of control over the pressure that you can’t get with manufactured blasters without unnecessary effort. I've been aware of this since shortly after I joined NH in 2003, yet it's still uncommon. (No, latex tubing isn’t hard to find. You can buy it off McMaster-Carr and other online store. The stuff is also manufactured worldwide as far as I know and you can contact a distributor directly if you want.)

As I’ve noted before, the problem is quite nuanced, and there are circumstances where I do think a bladder is better, but this depends completely on the design. If you want simplicity and more consistency of pressure, bladders can’t be beat. If you want the force of your pump to remain consistent, bladders can’t be beat. If you don’t want to waste any air at all, bladders can’t be beat as their volume goes to near zero (compare that against the gas left in a hard tank when the pressure drops below the regulated pressure; this “precharge” gas isn’t really used for anything).

But, if you want high energy density, you can’t use bladders as their pressure is limited. If you want something that is durable, you can’t use bladders. If you want performance that is consistent as possible (which is good for more than just consistency; accuracy depends greatly on consistency, for example), you can’t use bladders. Etc.

So the answer depends largely on what you want. I personally prefer hard tanks with regulators.

[Boot]

Boot, have you ever used a regulator? Any good regulator will basically lock on to the set pressure. Bladders on the other hand have a pressure that drops perhaps 25% or more as it is emptied. Regulators are definitely more consistent, and that is one of the advantages of hard tanks with regulators over bladders.

As I’ve noted before, the problem is quite nuanced, and there are circumstances where I do think a bladder is better, but this depends completely on the design. If you want simplicity and more consistency of pressure, bladders can’t be beat. If you want the force of your pump to remain consistent, bladders can’t be beat. If you don’t want to waste any air at all, bladders can’t be beat as their volume goes to near zero (compare that against the gas left in a hard tank when the pressure drops below the regulated pressure; this “precharge” gas isn’t really used for anything).

But, if you want high energy density, you can’t use bladders as their pressure is limited. If you want something that is durable, you can’t use bladders. If you want performance that is consistent as possible (which is good for more than just consistency; accuracy depends greatly on consistency, for example), you can’t use bladders. Etc.

So the answer depends largely on what you want. I personally prefer hard tanks with regulators.

@Doom

I understand that regulators maintain more constant pressure, but to do that you have greatly over pressurize a small tank (which is all you really could have is you build it into a firefly), or have a very large tank.

Notice I mentioned the option of building a homemade bladder, but as I currently live in China I do not have the resources to do this. If you reread my post you will notice that I said almost exactly what you are saying. Bladders offer higher efficiency, which is important if you are using a small pump. I also mentioned that hard tanks are easier to build and are stronger. There are obvious benefits to both sides.

I had not realized that bladders degraded that much over time, and have yet to see one explode (I recall Captain Slug mentioning that the MS Bladder material was rated to 500PSI while the Nylon inserts were to around 150PSI), but that is very good to know.

I still believe however that in this case a bladder is much more suitable. It is both small enough to fit in or on the blaster without the need for a backpack, and provide a decent number of shots making the blaster much more portable. At the same time it should efficiently run off a small hand pump as Dyxlesic has in his picture, and eliminates the need for a regulator making the build simpler. When I created the semi-automatic back pressure valve design for the Mirage-SS and the WIP Mirage 2.0 I experimented with different tanks and found, unless you are willing to sacrifice portability through a backpack rig, a bladder is the simplest and most effective way to go.

I am certainly not saying only a bladder will work, but for this project I think it is the best option.

I understand you have a lot of experience in this area, and have read and appreciated a lot of the work you have done, but I think immediately accusing people (which mainly seem to be myself and Shmmee) of being ignorant in this area, despite saying things very similar to what you stated is a bit uncalled for. I am happy to argue the benefits of hard tanks vs. Bladders, but questions like "have you ever used a regulator?" are a bit derogatory, especially since we seem to agree on the benefits and disadvantages of the two systems, just to varying degrees.

Edited by Boot, 18 February 2011 - 12:32 AM.

[Dyxlesic]

Thanks for both of your feedbacks. I am extremely interested in this debate so far. As for pumps, I am using a magstrike pump because it fits in the bar below the trigger grip. I have never used an alternate pump before, and will look next time I'm out for one that will fit.
In case you were wondering about "room for the air tank", I actouly cut the grey part out (completely) and plan to put the tank/bladder where it used to be.
Alright, so I've cut it down to two simpler, improved designs, 2a and 2b. I will get more of my amazing (sarcastic) diagrams up later. Here is a summary:

2-a: hard tank
Advantages:
holes can be drilled anywhere, so input/output hoses can be put anywhere(major advantage for this specific project)
Bigger air supply
More consistent
Easier to make
More durable
Disadvantages:
Less efficient
Heavier
Have to buy regulators
Needs extra pumps for precharge


2-b: bladder
Advantages:
Way more efficient
No regulator
Constant pressure, even with low pressure
Disadvantages:
Harder to make
Can only be accessed from 1 spot
Less safe
Needs to be replaced

Am I right so far? I will post diagrahms either tomorow or this weekend

[Kid Flash]

Did someone say Semi Automatic Firefly?

[Dyxlesic]

Did someone say Semi Automatic Firefly?

Damnit flash, you beat me to it .
I got 3 questions:
How many pumps per shot?
How are the ranges?
Is the trigger pull take alot of force?

[Kid Flash]

Did someone say Semi Automatic Firefly?

Damnit flash, you beat me to it .
I got 3 questions:
How many pumps per shot?
How are the ranges?
Is the trigger pull take alot of force?

Pumps? I have no idea. I just pump the bladders a crap ton. They're in a transformers backpack. Ranges? However far a salvo normally shoots, I would assume. Maybe 70 feet, but I haven't tested. The trigger pull is the same, if not lighter than stock.

[Doom]

Boot, a few things:

It is unfortunate that what is written on the internet often is misconstrued. I ask that you read what you think was derogatory again and try to see my frustration.

My purpose was closer to providing accurate information than to justifying using anything specific for this project. I don’t care what choice Dyxlesic makes.

I’m not seeing how what you’ve said is similar to what I said. Certainly, you did say there may be uses for hard tanks, but I never claimed you did not. All I said was that some people prefer bladders nearly exclusively. That was the sentiment when I read things like this:

Hard tanks are easier to make well, and generally stronger, but in terms of performance are severely lacking, and cannot compare to a bladder in either efficiency or consistency.

I didn’t use the word ignorant here. While I did imply those who prefer bladders in the majority of cases are ignorant of the issues involved and their various options, I think that word’s a little too strong.

What you wrote earlier did not indicate that you understand regulators maintain a constant pressure better than bladders. You said that regulated pressure “certainly will not be any more consistent” than bladders. You’re contradicting yourself.

You don’t even seem to have read my post at some point. Latex tubing is available internationally as far as I can tell, and I mentioned this. I think it might be even easier to get in China if you live in a city (like Beijing) than it is in the US. I’m under the impression that you haven’t bothered to look.

I’m not sure what you mean by “efficiency”. You seem to imply that bladders somehow reduce the number of pumps per shot. I agreed that regulated tanks have some air that is not used directly. But this air is not worthless even if it’s not used directly, and it’s not necessary to vent it at any point if you have a well designed pressure vessel. Once the “precharge” air is there, the number of pumps per shot will be precisely the same in both cases unless bladders somehow magically reduce the gas mass used per shot (they don’t). So what you wrote is misleading at best for regulated tanks.

I had not realized that bladders degraded that much over time, and have yet to see one explode (I recall Captain Slug mentioning that the MS Bladder material was rated to 500PSI while the Nylon inserts were to around 150PSI), but that is very good to know.

They don't explode. They burst. You will find large torn pieces of the bladder. It's basically exactly like a balloon popping except far louder. I am not joking when I say it's like a shotgun. YakMan and I figured this out the hard way. (Thankfully, only a few tubes seem to be completely unstable such that they will pop after a few fills. Nonetheless, this problem can not be ignored.)

As for what CS allegedly said, that doesn’t sound accurate.

[Dyxlesic]

Kidflash:
Thanks for giving me an idea of what my end results will be. When I asked how many pumps per shot, I'm trying to get a general idea of how air-efficient it is. Where did you get the semi auto valve anyway? At clippers it's $25 shipping and handling on a $7 valve for me

Boot and doom:
I appreciate all the information you guys have given me so far. I love the compare and contrasting you two are doing, as it is really helpful. However, neither one of you is trying to insult the other one. You are both trying to do the same thing: share your knowledge and opinions on a subject, to help correct incorrect information that confuses others, help save eachother time and effort of a potential failed experiment, and keep eachother and readers safe.
You are both misunderstanding eachothers tone. I'm pretty sure that neither of you intended to insult the other right? It was either a miswording or a misreading.

[Kid Flash]

Kidflash:
Thanks for giving me an idea of what my end results will be. When I asked how many pumps per shot, I'm trying to get a general idea of how air-efficient it is. Where did you get the semi auto valve anyway? At clippers it's $25 shipping and handling on a $7 valve for me

That is the valve I used.

[Dyxlesic]

Kidflash:
Thanks for giving me an idea of what my end results will be. When I asked how many pumps per shot, I'm trying to get a general idea of how air-efficient it is. Where did you get the semi auto valve anyway? At clippers it's $25 shipping and handling on a $7 valve for me

That is the valve I used.

Where did you get it? Did you find it somewhere else for a fair price?

[Boot]

Boot, a few things:

*Snip*

I'm sure this all is a misunderstanding, but come on words like "allegedly" and "doesn't sound accurate" still seem to be pretty derogatory. A quick search of CaptainSlug's posts on bladders would have given you:

The material of the bladder itself is rated to 500PSI. The Nylon fittings however are rated to 150PSI. The stock pump can only fill the stock bladder to about 60PSI.
The points of failure involved are the end caps of the bladder not being secure, or using a hose clamp without padding, causing it to cut into the bladder.

from this thread.

As for Latex tubing being Internationally available, I'm sure it is made here, but many things are made here that are immediately shipped internationally. With quite a bit of digging I could probably find it, but I certainly can't just hop on McMaster, or go to a hardware store to find it.

Anyway, we have both presented our sides of the argument, and this really isn't all that big a deal. Your right that often what we post isn't taken as we hoped it should be, I at least am out of useful things to say that actually add to the thread. I actually learned a lot.

@ Dyxlesic

Thanks for obviously being more mature than both of us combined.

A few small fixes to your "advantages and disadvantages"

A: A hard tank would probably be the same weight if not lighter, Bladders would probably need a protective housing of some sort adding mass.

B:I don't understand what you mean by "constant pressure, even at low pressure", the material of the bladder will keep the pressure fairly constant, in the case of a MS bladder at about 35PSI.

Unless you make one from scratch I don't see how its harder to make (even from scratch it would just be hard to find materials, not construction difficulty).

I still don't think they are any less safe, or will have to be replaced any time soon, but I may be wrong there (The mirage-SS has only been around for about 8 months, but is showing no signs of wear). If anything breaks it will be the tubing connections to the bladder and tank, not the bladder itself (unless it has a cut or gouge on it somewhere).

Also, if you make a homemade bladder, or split the outlet coming out the front of the bladder it can be accessed in multiple spots.

I really am looking forwards to seeing this done, good luck!

[Dyxlesic]

@ boot
My friends call me the peace keeper. I wonder why...
You can't argue with the slug, or you will be proven horribly, horribly wrong. No exceptions
In other words: dat bladda ain't gon' pop. Thanks for quoting him for more reliable information.
The space between the pump and the tank/bladder is EXTREMELY short, so there is no room to put a T (I've tried) unless I shortened the pump. and integrating a bladder with my specific design would take much more work, and require much more time and skill than I have. With an airtank, I can drill holes and have hoses come out of anywhere I want. While I may need a lot of air for a precharge, I wind up with a huge air capacity. Since bladders have a constant pressure, I can't use an air gauge with them. A regulator will make it just as consistent, if not more consistent than a bladder. Since the tank is going to be part of the fireflies structure, an airtank is better there too. while I like bladders more than tanks for this type of project, in this senerio, it just isn't my best option. I'm pretty sure I going with the tank.
I cannot begin to say how thankful I am for your help.

[Kid Flash]

Kidflash:
Thanks for giving me an idea of what my end results will be. When I asked how many pumps per shot, I'm trying to get a general idea of how air-efficient it is. Where did you get the semi auto valve anyway? At clippers it's $25 shipping and handling on a $7 valve for me

That is the valve I used.

Where did you get it? Did you find it somewhere else for a fair price?

I got it from someone who ordered a few for cheaper. However, I will be needing to pay full price for another for salvofly v3.

[Doom]

You can argue with CS here. He seems to be confusing the tensile strength of the material with a pressure rating. A pressure rating also depends on the material's geometry. The actual stresses in the bladder are far higher than the internal pressure. Also, I'm not sure how you can assign a maximum pressure rating to something that itself controls the pressure. If you pump air in at a higher pressure into a bladder, the pressure will decrease as the air expands.

That's what I meant when I said it was inaccurate. Boot, I didn't elaborate because you seem to be willing to misinterpret everything I say such that it's derogatory, but that didn't seem to matter here as you still misinterpreted me. I don't think anything I said was immature or insulting. If you're sure something is a misunderstanding in this context, why post it? The only conclusion I can make is that you are too willing to interpret my explanations and corrections as hostility. There is a difference between saying that someone is wrong and being hostile. (I'm not going to argue about this any further. I have better things to do.)

Edited by Doom, 18 February 2011 - 11:57 PM.