31 replies to this topic

[TantumBull]

So, basically, I want to know what you guys think about the fairness of external air sources and when the use of one would upset the fairness of the game.

So first we have Slug's HPA magstrikes. They hit about 50 to 60 feet and they really don't take that long to reload if you have enough clips. They are a very good rushing weapon yet they're disadvantage is that you will have to get in a little closer in order to get people with it.

Now as an aside, let's take a look at a RFSG. Its capable of 12 rounds in 12 second at 100 feet. No weaknesses. Good ROF so it can deal with close quarters, and enough range for farther apart engagements.

Now let's take a look at a 2K hooked up to an HPA tank with a tank expansion and an RSCB clip. Let's assume the tank is modded enough so that with an RSCB capable of 5 shots it will hit in the 90s with an empty clip. Reloading is a flick and the push of a button valve.

Not quite as cheap as a RFSG, but getting there.

Another good example is imaseoulman's "unfair gun." He said his friends wouldn't let him play with it because of its ROF and range.

My question is this: Where do we draw the line on what can be connected to an external air tank so that the fairness of the game isn't fucked with?

Edited by TantumBull, 11 June 2009 - 11:06 PM.

[TimmyTown]

I personally say nothing with a tank that uses compressed air or CO2 that is not managed by a pump.

If it isn't pumped up or spring powered it is not allowed in my regard. I think it ruins the point of nerf and ends up pushing out into other fields such as airsoft and paintball. I think that, although every example is a cool mod, all the examples you listed should not be allowed.

[ace of nerf]

I don't think it any gun should be banned unless it hurts someone physically. If someone has the skill to create an hpa powered blaster or a doomsayer they should be able to use it and be proud of their hard work on the battlefield.

[NerfRogue83]

I feel the need to disagree. In my humble opinion, if you have the talent and imagination to construct one of the above listed monsters--I think it only fair to allow its use. If the other players find this to be an unfair advantage, they should set to making their own beast to level the field. I think one thing that makes this hobby great is that some players with above average ability are able to forge increadable blasters of this sort, and thus create their own advantage. I believe the players that can't should then in turn step up their play to compensate, as no matter how sick the blaster is---no player is untouchable.---Rogue.

Ace beat me to it.---Rogue.

Edited by NerfRogue83, 11 June 2009 - 11:20 PM.

[TantumBull]

I don't think it any gun should be banned unless it hurts someone physically. If someone has the skill to create an hpa powered blaster or a doomsayer they should be able to use it and be proud of their hard work on the battlefield.

Neither are difficult to make, though, if you have at least half a year of modding experience.

Edit: Mainly I'm asking because of how the east cracks down on doomsayers, which I am all for. It would be great if someone who runs wars over there could also comment.

Edited by TantumBull, 11 June 2009 - 11:18 PM.

[Echnalaid]

In NJ, we don't let people use Doomsayers. The only time I'll allow it at my wars if it only hits up to 90 ft MAX.

The only HPA gun I'll ever allow is an Eyes of Fire for their ridiculous amounts of win. Also it takes forever to load again. But for a 40 dart storm hailing from the sky, it's worth it!
(I mean it's satisfying to use, not it's effectiveness)

[Chaos-blades]

I'm in agreeance with Ace of Nerf on this.
If you went through the time, effort and money to make such a creation you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labour.

Unless you are nerfing in a 4m by 5m shed and you want to use a sigled titan or the like.
(Pardon my use of the metric system)

[CaptainSlug]

First off, external tanks ARE EXPENSIVE. Nerf is supposed to be about affordability.

I only experiment with tanks because they're a way to explore hilariously ridiculous ideas. They're also especially fun for goofing around indoors.

So first we have Slug's HPA magstrikes. They hit about 50 to 60 feet and they really don't take that long to reload if you have enough clips. They are a very good rushing weapon yet they're disadvantage is that you will have to get in a little closer in order to get people with it.

Using one occasionally was fun and all, but it requires you to do A LOT OF RUNNING. And no matter how many darts you are carrying it's never quite enough because you're not going to be using your darts efficiently because you can't fire them off one or two at a time.

The more darts you shoot, the more time you will spend reloading.

Now as an aside, let's take a look at a RFSG. Its capable of 12 rounds in 12 second at 100 feet. No weaknesses. Good ROF so it can deal with close quarters, and enough range for farther apart engagements.

Oh it has a weakness, as does every blaster.

You're going to be distracted whenever you need to reload it and a good portion of the opposing team is going to be gunning for just you. You're going to run out of darts to shoot before everyone else.

Also, turrets add weight, bulk, and an inability to easily change out your barrels.

My question is this: Where do we draw the line on what can be connected to an external air tank so that the fairness of the game isn't fucked with?

Entirely depends on who is using that weapon.
I can assure you that I have a very difficult time maneuvering around the field if I'm carrying a backpack tank. My ability to dodge shots while wearing one is also greatly undermined.


There's absolutely nothing you can make or use that will make you invincible. Blasters tend to be banned for safety (singled Titans), because they're frequently used by obnoxious dickweed 14-year-olds (singled Titans), or because they have a general tendency to make rounds un-fun.

We don't care so much about "fair".

Edited by CaptainSlug, 12 June 2009 - 12:34 AM.

[Doom]

External tanks are not necessarily expensive. In fact, I was surprised by how cheap the LPA aluminum tank I use in my (still under development) FANG 2. I won't say how much it cost specifically because Catalina Cylinders doesn't typically sell single units, but I can guarantee that if you call them about selling a single unit you will be surprised by the cost.

To top it off, I like my LPA tank much better than HPA; it's far lighter, makes a neat stock, is safer, and looks better as far as I'm concerned. That's not even counting cost.

In my opinion HPA, CO2, and other similar gas sources (propane, nitrogen, etc.) are unfair simply because they aren't "human energy." I think Nerf is about what energy a person can store, not what energy an industrial high pressure pump can store. If someone wants to make a gun that requires 30 minutes of pumping to use, I say go ahead because its awfully stupid and they'll quickly learn that.

We had a brief discussion about this in IRC a while ago. The IRC discussion tended towards whether or not things like this would "change the game." I argue that even if they do that's fine. If some people want to have a game a certain way, let them, and this goes for people who want to preserve the game as it is now, people who want to turn Nerf into paintball, people who want only stock Nerf guns, hell, even the people who want to bring Nerf back to how it was in 1996 or some other year. Nerf is not one style of play.

Edited by Doom, 12 June 2009 - 07:32 AM.

[Shadowblade]

Edit: Mainly I'm asking because of how the east cracks down on doomsayers, which I am all for. It would be great if someone who runs wars over there could also comment.

The SouthEast allows doomsayers on the field. Not sure about New England but down here, we're very lenient.

I don't know what the rest of my fellow southerners think, but I believe that if someone has put the time and effort to produce such a weapon as a doomsayer or HPA Magstrike, they should be allowed to use it, granted of course that it does not bring physical harm to other players (singled Titans). In a way, this encourages innovation in both weaponary and playing-style. Someone pops up with a doomsayer so everyone else sets forth to create an uber weapon of their own to fit his/her own playing style. It is no fun when everyone uses blasters that reach over 100' and the rounds become long-range standoffs. Hell, it'd be interesting to see how a HPA Magstrike would do down south, seeing as we have the range issue mastered but ROF is lacking.

Nerf is just like any other sport. It evolves as the players and the technology evolves. Half the fun comes from seeing newer, better weapons fielded and trying to make something even better (and the other half comes from actually nerfing )

~Shadowblade

[CaptainSlug]

External tanks are not necessarily expensive.

Even if you get a really good deal on the tank itself, buying all of the fittings, tubing, regulator, check valve, pressure gauge, and so on all add up rather quickly.

[Doom]

Even if you get a really good deal on the tank itself, buying all of the fittings, tubing, regulator, check valve, pressure gauge, and so on all add up rather quickly.

The assembly is not free, but it is not expensive either. Any decent HPA tank alone will cost more than what I spent total.

Adding up what I paid I can give an estimate in the range of $55 to $70. I included things most wouldn't include like a check valve and pop-safety valve and used rather expensive metal tubing (like $12 per foot) leading to the valve assembly. Remove the check and pop-safety valves, use vinyl tubing with cheaper fittings, and remove a tee, and it'll cost about $35. Remove about $10 if a pressure gauge is unnecessary. I'm certain I could do this for even cheaper with the right components and configuration.

[Roy]

External tanks are not necessarily expensive.

Even if you get a really good deal on the tank itself, buying all of the fittings, tubing, regulator, check valve, pressure gauge, and so on all add up rather quickly.

Agreed.

Take it from an old fart who's been playing paintball since 89', it's not the tank but the reg and other fiddly bits that get ya.

[navyseal849]

I think you should be able to use all (nerf) guns as long as the gun cant make someone bleed, cry or hit someone accurately at 200 feet, or go over 200 feet fired flat.

[Shrub]

Yeah HPA tanks aren't that expensive. 3000 PSI tanks have enough pressure for a lot of shots.Personally I would hook one up to a AT2K that also still has the pump connect them to a "y" adapter so then I can use the pump as soon as I run out of air I would also make it to where I can switch it to another gun between rounds.

[nerkum]

High ROF guns that have great distance are begining to be fully realized. Even if we don't use external air sources, our guns by this time next year will be able to lay out some serious darts.

One big change that will make this occur is the Raider... or more specifically the 35 shot drum it comes with. That will turn a longshot into a murder machine.

Turret guns are getting better seals so we can pump more pressure though them. Slap on an inline clip on a doomsayer and you have something able to hold up to 72 shots and still get decent ranges.

The game changes... no longer is it, opps I missed on my shot now I have to outrun them while trying to reload. It becomes, oh I missed, let me fire again, and again, etc. Cover and angles become more important.

Some things will get banned, but somethings will just change the way we play. New game types will be invented so the old style play will live on (ex, for this round nothing that has more then 4 shots).

[CaptainSlug]

One big change that will make this occur is the Raider... or more specifically the 35 shot drum it comes with. That will turn a longshot into a murder machine.

The flaw in your assertion is that the Longshot is somehow good.

It's not.

The Raider isn't likely to be any good for use in an outdoor Nerf war either. Reloading a box magazine in the middle of a round sucks. And the stock breeches made to utilize them are very unreliable.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 12 June 2009 - 12:56 PM.

[Salmon]

In my opinion, HPA-powered automatics should be allowed, since their range is low enough (and reload long enough) that it makes it fair. If some people like to run up and shoot like the dickens at everything they see, let them do that. But only automatics. No HPA-powered BBBBs or AT2Ks, unless you have to manually refill the tank/bladder by pump, and even then, I wouldn't really like to see them at a war.

Edited by Salmon, 12 June 2009 - 01:21 PM.

[TantumBull]

One big change that will make this occur is the Raider... or more specifically the 35 shot drum it comes with. That will turn a longshot into a murder machine.

The flaw in your assertion is that the Longshot is somehow good.

It's not.

Alright, we all know about your beef with the Longshot. I just have a couple questions about this beef.

Your problem with it is reliability, right? The bolt to orange nub break point can easily fixed with machining a new nub out of aluminum and then soldering the pieces together. When my set-up breaks I plan on doing just this.

Then there's the problem with the dart pusher (1/2" brass) coming out of place. Solder could also fix this.

The boltsled is incredibly easy to reincforce with coat hanger, epoxy putty, and/or fiber glass.

Those are all the major break points I can think of and the methods I outlined will take care of them for a good amount of time. Also, the dart eating problem doesn't happen as long as your foam is the right size.

In short, you're definitely right that most brass'd Longshots suck because of how unreliable they are. Just know that it isn't impossible to make into a worthy primary.

[AssassinNF]

One big change that will make this occur is the Raider... or more specifically the 35 shot drum it comes with. That will turn a longshot into a murder machine.

The flaw in your assertion is that the Longshot is somehow good.

It's not.

The Raider isn't likely to be any good for use in an outdoor Nerf war either. Reloading a box magazine in the middle of a round sucks. And the stock breeches made to utilize them are very unreliable.

I will never understand all the Longshot hate on this forum. Sure the range and accuracy can be sub-par, but the ROF and ease of use are great. And if you Angel Breech it, the range and accuracy issues are gone. Plus you can integrate many different blasters into it, to compensate for what you may be lacking.

The Raider is going to be just another Recon, but the Raider's drum is going to be great to slap on a Longshot. You will only need to reload at the beginning of a round, and if you somehow run out of ammo, there's no reason not to have a spare clip on hand. Or you could take out the drum, shove a couple rounds into it quickly, and continue. It's actually really easy to do. I've gotten into the habbit of removing partially loaded clips and adding darts whenever I get a chance during longer rounds. If I did that with a Raider drum, I could potentially never run out of ammo.

"And the stock breeches made to utilize them are very unreliable." Unreliable how? I never have problems with LS breeches unless I try to fire a dart that looks like it took a trip through a dog's intestines.

I'd sincerely like to know why people hate Longshots. It makes no sense to me. They don't have any more flaws than any other gun, and their flaws can be fixed just as easily as they can with any other gun.


As far as overpowered guns are concerned, I think there is no such thing. Unless the gun causes physical harm, it should be legal. All of these "invincible" guns have weaknesses. Backpack HPA Auto guns hamper mobility and waste ammo, Doomsayers are bulky gun-hit magnets, and any gun that gives you an advantage is noticed quickly, which paints a big target on your face. Every time I use my Doomsayer, for example, everyone is gunning for me. There is no unfair gun.

[NerfRogue83]

Thats about one of the most logical and well informed statements I have read here in a while. Well said Assasin.----Rogue.

[Mehku]

I honestly have gotten more kills with my longshot than any other gun in my arsenal, and I don't suck at nerfing either. I don't get why people hate them so much. If you reinforce the bolt sled, slap a new plunger head and an ar-15 spring in it, its good to go. The accuracy problems are compensated by the rate of fire.

Back on topic, I believe that if a person takes the time and effort to create an uber-ass kicking weapon of doom, they should be allowed to use it as long as it doesn't cause physical harm to someone. That is how I have always played the game. One person makes a super awesome weapon of mass distraction, and kicks some ass with it. The next war, everyone shows up with much better weapons to compensate. That is just how I believe nerf should be played, because you never know what to expect.

[TantumBull]

After reading over these excellent and informing replies, I realize now that I wasn't taking into account several of the disadvantages of a doomsayer or HPA powered blaster.

I didn't even think of the "everyone goes for the guy with the best blaster" thing.

So thank you everyone for making them more clear. I will now embark on the project I described as possibly being unfair.

Well, maybe. That depends on if I can convince myself to build/buy an external air tank.

[dizzyduck]

I'd sincerely like to know why people hate Longshots. It makes no sense to me. They don't have any more flaws than any other gun, and their flaws can be fixed just as easily as they can with any other gun.

I'll try to explain my dislike of Longshots as best I can. Longshots are...

1. Pricey.

A stock Longshot retails for over $30 now, and they only come with one clip.

2. Difficult to modify well.

Angel Breeches are not simple modifications. Brass can be expensive depending on where you are, and that cost can add quickly if you are buying your Longshot at retail price. Even with a well-done Angel Breech, Longshots still don't have the range of some of the other blasters that are popular primaries. You are also limited by your clips (or clip, if you buy one NIB).

Then you have to reinforce the bolt sled, strengthen the catch spring, and mod the stock to keep it from spontaneously collapsing, just to make it work properly. And even then, it still runs the risk of something going wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's Longshot suddenly burst into flames for no reason.

Singled Longshots are worse. They're like bear traps for your fingers. Trying to salvage a Longshot with a broken bolt sled is one thing, but taking a $35 blaster and removing the only upside it has makes no sense to me.

3. Uncomfortable as snot.

The priming motion of the Longshot is awkward. Admit it. Remedying the awkward priming motion means putting in a shotgun grip, but that involves removing the integration potential that you referenced.

[TantumBull]

Even with a well-done Angel Breech, Longshots still don't have the range of some of the other blasters that are popular primaries.

Ghasp! Am I reading this correctly? Dizzy claiming a gun is bad because it can't shoot 100 feet? I think I may have just entered the twilight zone.