51 replies to this topic

[Doom]

Generally I avoid Apple products because of the high price and vendor lock-in. With that being said, Apple products generally are of good quality. I definitely would rather use OS X than Windows. But I'd also rather use Linux than either of them. Especially if you're concerned about cost metsgorock, consider Linux. If you don't boot into Windows and call Dell about it they'll send you a refund check for what you're not using.

I've read that Linux is actually very popular in the movie industry so it's very capable if that's what you're looking for.

Edited by Doom, 09 November 2008 - 12:08 PM.

[boisie]

I always say Linux will win over windows, until you hit games.

Linux has more customization options than any OS. And as Linus Torvald puts it, "There are no viruses for linux. This is because the user can break linux on their own." All you have to not do is break it. And that's easy to avoid, when you do all your work and never type

rm -rf

into a terminal. Also, it's easy to turn Linux into an OSX look alike.

OSX is based on UNIX, or FreeBSD to be precise. You can run Linux programs on Mac OSX usually, as long as you install the right shell extensions.

Windows owns gaming, and thats it.

[CaptainSlug]

Have any of the people that have made recommendations in this thread actually DONE any video editing or DVD authoring? Because some of you are giving terrible advice.

Windows Movie Maker = Is crap. Only supports stable editing of .WMV files and is temperamental. Windows Vista version is extremely neutered compared to older version and is almost unusable.

Imovie= Is decent

Sony Vegas or Pinnacle 500 = Infinitely more powerful than alternatives.

iDVD = fine

DVDstyler (freeware) = Somewhat difficult to learn, but very capable. Can even make menued CD images that will work in a DVD player

SUPER codec converter (freeware) = Converts anything to anything else

Solveig AVItrimmer = So long as the clip you are trimming is in the supported codecs, you can chop it up into separate segments very quickly or edit out sections without having to recompress the output file. Extremely fast option if you're trying to cut commercials out of a TV show.

With laptops the difference between Mac vs. PC is the compatibility with games and the options available for peripheral expansion and software titles.
Apple laptops are plenty capable, but now no longer include PCMCIA slots.
If your camcorder records onto a flash card or other device that you can get a USB reader for it would be more prudent to transfer the video that way if you get a Macbook.
Replacement parts for any given Dell laptop will be infinitely cheaper and easier to find should you need them at any point in time in the future.
Apple products have built-in obsolescence and are very difficult to service as they age. They are treated and built as disposable devices with a 4 to 7 year usable life span.

Most builds of Linux are not ideal solutions for everyday computing. Linux can turn into a hobby in itself to keep it working. Unless the laptop came with Linux pre-installed, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Especially those that are not already familiar with it and willing to put in the amount of time researching it themselves to learn how to use and maintain it.

Dell and Apple have similarly mediocre warranty and service plans.
There are plenty of other laptop manufacturers out there.

The bottom line is
WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET?

For a $1,000 budget and the expectation of it being a "school laptop" the XPS will be fine, but if you want the laptop to be more portable I would recommend that you go with something smaller.
Like the Asus N10J-A1 for $680
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16834220385
Firewire ExpressCard = $60
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16839158010
Sony Vegas 9 = $60
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16832135215

And you didn't mention wanting to burn DVDs or make DVD images. But you will want to get some kind of external disc drive.
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16827106248

Edited by CaptainSlug, 09 November 2008 - 04:53 PM.

[boisie]

Listen to Slug. He is the winner of this argument.

[Doom]

Have any of the people that have made recommendations in this thread actually DONE any video editing or DVD authoring? Because some of you are giving terrible advice.

I've done a decent amount of video editing for some projects but nothing major. Avidemux has been plenty adequate. MPlayer covered the remainder of what I needed to do.

This is why I specifically did not suggest any programs, rather, I suggested avoiding Apple hardware and trying Linux if it'd save money.

Most builds of Linux are not ideal solutions for everyday computing. Linux can turn into a hobby in itself to keep it working. Unless the laptop came with Linux pre-installed, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Especially those that are not already familiar with it and willing to put in the amount of time researching it themselves to learn how to use and maintain it.

I disagree. When people make statements like this I wonder how much experience they have with Linux. My setup is not unusual and I've primarily used Linux for 6+ years. Some things need improvement, yes, but by large Linux is good for the mainstream. Your statement I would have agreed with 5 years ago but the current state of Linux is very different. If using Linux was difficult or time consuming I would not use it.

Of course, I'd suggest whatever one is comfortable with. If they're not comfortable with Linux, that's fine, but I think most people would be if they gave Linux a chance.

[MithMorchaint]

Slug kind of pointed it out, but why did you pick a Dell laptop to compare with a Macbook? There are much better Windows-running laptops out there than those made by Dell. At work we get Dell laptops unless specifically requested otherwise, so I have a lot of experience with them. Don't get a Dell.

Also, to address the "there are no viruses for Macs" thing: that's 100% crap. I work doing internal tech support for a major company and people have to bring their Macs in for us to remove viruses fairly frequently. It used to be true that there were no viruses for OSX; it isn't any more.

My recommendation is to get a Windows-running laptop, not OSX. I don't recommend Dells since they tend to break fairly easily (though that is more true of some models than others). My girlfriend has a Toshiba laptop that she has had for going on 5 years now and it has never once had a problem; Toshiba might be a good brand to look at. Another solid possibility is Sony, though I don't specifically know much about their laptops.

One more thing: when getting a Windows-running laptop you'll have to decide between Vista and XP. There are pros and cons to both of them. Vista is what is usually included by default now, so it will be cheaper in most cases to get that. However, it really comes down to personal preference. Vista has bugs, so does XP. Which interface do you like more? Getting XP will also probably add about $150 to the price.

As a non-technical addendum, I'd like to add that nearly every person I know who has opted to buy a Macbook has regretted it for various reasons. Not all of them, just most of them. A lot of the things you hear about how great they are is exaggerated, so you might find yourself disappointed when you get one.

[CaptainSlug]

I disagree. When people make statements like this I wonder how much experience they have with Linux. My setup is not unusual and I've primarily used Linux for 6+ years. Some things need improvement, yes, but by large Linux is good for the mainstream. Your statement I would have agreed with 5 years ago but the current state of Linux is very different. If using Linux was difficult or time consuming I would not use it.

Of course, I'd suggest whatever one is comfortable with. If they're not comfortable with Linux, that's fine, but I think most people would be if they gave Linux a chance.

Linux compatibility with a wide range of devices is still spotty for the vast majority of builds. Things have improved considerably in the past 3 years, but it's still very difficult for the average person to diagnose problems in Linux.
I'm not saying it's terrible or that it's the fault of Linux, it's just not prudent to suggest that someone who is buying and building their first machine should try Linux as their first operating system when many hardware manufacturers do not offer Linux drivers. It's not as easy to install correctly and get help with unless you know where to look and who to ask.

OEM Pre-installed Linux is a completely different story and is great. But I hesitate to recommend it to people I don't know very well. I would first want to know how familiar they are with computers.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 09 November 2008 - 04:44 PM.

[Doom]

Good points CaptainSlug. I can't say I've had the same experiences with hardware. Buying hardware known to have solid Linux support is important, though I've never found that restricting because the vast majority of hardware is supported. The lack of familiarity is a valid concern and is why I suggest just doing what you're comfortable with.

I suppose I'm like the Apple promoters except I'm for Linux. And I hope I'm a tad more logical.

[CaptainSlug]

I suppose I'm like the Apple promoters except I'm for Linux. And I hope I'm a tad more logical.

Indeed. The difference between proponents of Linux and proponents of Apple is that proponents of Linux can actually back up their arguments, and they understand the difference between hardware and software.
Building a Linux-compatible machine simply requires more research.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 09 November 2008 - 05:45 PM.

[Blacksunshine]

The only diff between a Mac and a MC these days are Macs run Their properity operating system and force you to use specific brand/model components. So if you want to upgrade your components they will cost 75-100% more for the same thing.

Generally not true anymore. RAM and HDs are standard. PC peripherals either tend to work straight out of the box with built in OSX drivers, or come with OSX drivers (it's a lot more common than it used to be). And even then, often times a periph can be made to work using generic UNIX drivers (CUPS, SANE, etc). The only thing that I've found this to be true for is video cards.

Sure there's a lot more stuff that's PC specific, but I haven't had a problem with finding inexpensive hardware.

LOL yes because Unix drivers are easy to come across for the average user.

Sure if you want to hack in and do a bunch of digging thru forums/newsgroups for drivers and info you can get 3rd party stuff to work on Mac's, but at that point you have invalidated the main function of the mac. And that is to provide a basic computer with a basic lay out to a basic user. If you're going to go on a support hunt you're in the same boat as a PC use you're only paying Much more $. If you're willing to be a guinnipig then you might as well use linux.
The reason that the video drivers is more because of Nvidia's unified driver setup and that ATI actually gives some support to linux. But outside that you are pretty much stuck ordering your stuff from apple approved places.
For example. If your motherboard fries on your Mac your only option is to either do a shit ton of research and find a PC Mobo that is approved for use with OSx. Or order one from Apple for a mint.


But what do I know. I've only administrated PC and Apple networks for around a decade. The nice thing about the MAC OS is there is no trouble shooting. If it crashes you just wipe the drive and reload your software. just be sure to back you stuff up off line. They made the operating system reload function VERY easy for a reason.

And I'm sorry. Linux is not an option. If you're a power user and are willing to have to deal with quirks of your os and going on egg hunts for software and such. Sure go ahead and get linux. If you are willing to handle all of your own troubleshooting and tech support go ahead and try linux. If you are not afraid of being the only man on the island when it comes down to it. Enjoy your linux.
But if you want to not have to worry about where you can take your PC to be serviced if it breaks. Or if you want support on your OS if it has issues or your software if IT has issues. then you'd best stick to the windows platform.

Bottom line here. All software crashes. OSx is not invulnerable regardless of what apple idiots will tell you.
Linux is not golden regardless of what L33t RoxHaxors will tell you.
There is a reason that windows is installed on the majority of systems. And that is called support.

You can take a PC just about anywhere and get help. You cannot say the same or anything close about either OSX or any version of linux.

Sluggy there knows what he's talking about.

[Carbon]

LOL yes because Unix drivers are easy to come across for the average user.

Right. Which is why it was listed last on my series of options. It's not the most preferable solution, but it still is a solution. Macs aren't only for the noobish.

Sure if you want to hack in and do a bunch of digging thru forums/newsgroups for drivers and info you can get 3rd party stuff to work on Mac's, but at that point you have invalidated the main function of the mac.

You miss my point entirely. A lot of 3rd party hardware already works on the Mac, because it comes with drivers, or works with native OSX drivers. Other options exist for more advanced users as well. Like I said, a lot more hardware exists for PC, but you're also not exactly limited in what you can choose from for OSX, nor do you have to pay a premium....those days pretty much ended when ADB and SCSI went away.

For example. If your motherboard fries on your Mac your only option is to either do a shit ton of research and find a PC Mobo that is approved for use with OSx. Or order one from Apple for a mint.

Very true. The Mac isn't...and never has been...a platform for hardware hackers. That being said, that isn't a negative for everyone.

[skatah]

I've been trying to decide this for a long time (since august) and I decided macbook. If you need firewire that bad then go for the macbook pro. Also mac can run windows. And lastly, macs are not better then pcs and pcs are not better the macs, its just what you want to do with it.

[mod master]

Would anyone recomend a gateway laptap? I'm thinking of getting one. Currently I'm a mac user by the way.
sorry for no pics

[boisie]

No. Don't buy a gateway. Crap for high prices is not good. They make desktops well though.



And back on the Mac PC debate, I still say that I'd always rather throw down less money for a PC when I know that it will be usable with any OS I want. *NIX, OSX, and Windblows (My opinion, not a fact...)

[Blacksunshine]

Would anyone recomend a gateway laptap? I'm thinking of getting one. Currently I'm a mac user by the way.
sorry for no pics

No. ALL gateways are POS's. do not buy Gateway. I've seen plenty crap out right out of the box.

If you're buying off the shelf then Sony or Dell are your best options.
Toshiba has a decent setup for a decent price as well. Others can be iffy.

As a tech in regard to laptops sonly and dell are the 2 that I've seen the least of. This also holds true for their desktops. tho sony comes with a steep price similar to Macs.

Whatever laptop you get get the extended warranty on it.

[Ta10n]

Excellent, a discussion I can actually sink my teeth into.

If you're looking for a good laptop in the $800 - $1500 range I would suggest you take a look at the Dell Studio series, I have the 17" version myself and I'm loving the hell out of it. The Studio's sit somewhere between the Inspirion and XPS series in terms of price and features, and represent one of the best values on the market right now (in terms of hardware specs anyway). The 17" has the option of an ATI Mobility HD 3650 graphics card, which will let you run Crysis smoothly (on minimum settings at 1280 x 720 res in the most demanding parts) and will do hardware accelerated h.264 video decoding (for 1080p movie goodness). It's not Centrino 2 based, so it doesn't have the most modern architecture right now (i.e. no DDR3 memory, no mobile quad-core support, max memory of 4 gigs supported) but all things considered it hauls ass pretty good

The connectivity options are pretty awesome as well, the only thing I can think of that it's really missing is an e-Sata hookup for high-speed external hard disks. The media card slot is an absolute godsend too (most laptops have one, but Macbooks don't as I recall). If your running Vista you can do what I do and leave an 8 gig card in the slot and have the system auto-backup to it every day. If my hard disk gets fragged all I have to do is pull out the card, pop it into my desktop and I still have all my important files.

The 17" also has a second hard disk bay, so it's easy to add more storage or set up a RAID 0, or 1 for speed or data redundancy.

Just so you guys know where I'm coming from, I haul the Studio to university every day, and I generally use it for writing, gaming, CAD, and hopefully at some point I'll be moving my film editing suite over to this bad boy, although I may need to throw in a second hard disk before I do that.

So I suggest you check out this model, see what you think.

-Ta10n

P.S. Yes I am a huge computer geek

P.P.S. Whatever laptop you purchase don’t act like one of the douchebags in my comp sci courses who insists on using a Targus notebook cooler with his IBM Thinkpad, because he thinks Ubuntu is going to cause his hardware to catch fire.

[Meaker VI]

I'll throw down on this one, since my job requires me to use both machines for what they are best at. I've used both Macs and PC's pretty much my whole life. I am finishing my studies to become an Architect, and I use power-hogging programs like Photoshop, Maya, AutoCAD, and Sketchup (which doesn't hog power unless you use it like I do). In my program, I've seen people using both Macs and PC's to do their work, and both are capable of doing it, especially since Mac has started using a universal chip. However, I have noticed problems with both; and seen people using both types of computer experience system failures of one sort or another.

That being said, the Mac users typically have their computers repaired, while the PC users are SOL.

Apple products have built-in obsolescence and are very difficult to service as they age. They are treated and built as disposable devices with a 4 to 7 year usable life span.

This is true, to an extent. Macs are "obsolete" after 4-7 years, and you're not supposed to upgrade them (Hardware wise) because they are already have optimized hardware. This is not true compared to the fact that PC's will die after 3-5 years of use (after their warranty expires). Macs (in my experience) do not irretrievably die after 4-7 years, they still function fine. The software has usually advanced past the point that it is worth continuing to update the computer though. I have an imac that is 8 years old and runs fine. I had another one that was older, and I stopped using it because I sold it to my family to use as an internet machine. I have seen many, many PC machines burn their motherboards, their hard drives, or other critical components and need to be entirely replaced (Whatever you do, do not buy an HP, my buddy has lost 2 in 4 years). When the Macs have problems, they are usually with the battery or power supply and are quickly remedied by Apple.

Keep in mind also how much 'hardware upgrading' you actually do. I usually buy a new computer rather that new components, because it isn't worth it to me to buy a $150 processor, $500 mother board, and $100 hard drive to "upgrade" my $400 4-year-old Toshiba. I could buy similar parts for my mac, but when it already outruns the Toshiba when I run blender and has 1/3 the processor power (500 mhz G3 vs. 1.5 ghz Pentium M), and I could pay the same money to buy a mac mini, I'll just leave it as-is until it stops working.

So, that being said, and that I believe you've said you used Macs all your life, I would go with the Mac. It will serve you longer and you already are more familiar with how it works.

[CaptainSlug]

1. This is true, to an extent. Macs are "obsolete" after 4-7 years, and you're not supposed to upgrade them (Hardware wise) because they are already have optimized hardware.

2. This is not true compared to the fact that PC's will die after 3-5 years of use (after their warranty expires).

3. I have seen many, many PC machines burn their motherboards, their hard drives, or other critical components and need to be entirely replaced (Whatever you do, do not buy an HP, my buddy has lost 2 in 4 years).

1. Obsolescence with a Mac is more pronounced because you cannot slowly upgrade them overtime as cost effectively as you can with a PC. Since they use very proprietary components there are plenty of parts you cannot swap out for a faster one. Desktop PCs have the benefit of every part being made to stringently adhere to a set Form Factor that allows you to drop-and-swap out most of the machine.

2. I haven't owned a new OEM desktop in 15 years. I have however revitalized dozens of used or refurbished OEM PCs in order to make sub-$100 computers for various people. Upgrading older PCs with used components is ridiculously cheap and not at all difficult.
The longevity of any computer is reliant upon the quality of the components used to build them.

3. Every failure I have seen is possible in both Macs and PCs. Neither has a monopoly on reliability or component quality.
Mac hardware problems tend to be much more difficult to diagnose and switching out the offending part is almost never worth the effort required to do so.

[slowguitarman]

I honestly don't think anyone can say "Don't buy this brand ever!!1!!11! It suckzorz!!11!!". I have had an HP desktop for many, many years with no trouble and I have had my HP laptop for about 2 1/2 years with no troubles at all. Just because someone had a bad experience with a certain company doesn't mean that it's a terrible company. My friend got a 40GB iPod when they first came out, and over the course of the few years she had it, it was replaced five times before Apple finally sent her an 80GB, yet her brother got his 40GB at the same time and has had no trouble with it. You can't judge a brand based on one or two people's experience.

Edited by slowguitarman, 17 November 2008 - 06:59 PM.

[Salmon]

Would anyone recomend a gateway laptap? I'm thinking of getting one. Currently I'm a mac user by the way.
sorry for no pics

I recommend one strongly. I recently got one with Vista (the M-7135u) and absolutely LOVE it. It's an excellent laptop. But then again, maybe that's because I've been stuck with a crappy two-year-old Inspiron until now.

[CaptainSlug]

Just because someone had a bad experience with a certain company doesn't mean that it's a terrible company.

Sure, but many bad experiences leads to an unwillingness to recommend that company to anyone you don't hate.

HP/Compaq customer support and general build quality is not up to par. Not abysmal per se, but not good or great.

[Icespartan 1114]

I have never used a Dell computer so I can't really say witch is better. I loves my macbook though. Its fast, slick looking, pratical and very easy to use.

[MithMorchaint]

Keep in mind also how much 'hardware upgrading' you actually do. I usually buy a new computer rather that new components, because it isn't worth it to me to buy a $150 processor, $500 mother board, and $100 hard drive to "upgrade" my $400 4-year-old Toshiba.

This may be kind of nit-picking, but your prices are way off. Processors can cost that much or more, sure, but motherboards? I've never paid over $100 for one.

[Blacksunshine]

Keep in mind also how much 'hardware upgrading' you actually do. I usually buy a new computer rather that new components, because it isn't worth it to me to buy a $150 processor, $500 mother board, and $100 hard drive to "upgrade" my $400 4-year-old Toshiba.

This may be kind of nit-picking, but your prices are way off. Processors can cost that much or more, sure, but motherboards? I've never paid over $100 for one.

I was also going to point this out. But bear in mind that we are talking about a notebook. And that means the MB is going to cost substantially more. Now in most cases you will only be able to get a direct replacement for the MB. Not an upgrade. That would make no sense for the MFG to make MB upgrades available for their laptops cause that would stop you from buying a new laptop. This is a universal truth.

Why do Mac fans always exclaim that they can run windows on their Mac? is that really such a big deal? You're native OS is such crap that one of the major highlights is that you can run windows. Awesome.
Notice how PC users don't care or want to run osx? Its not that the hardware CANT run it. its that Apple won't allow it to be run on anything but certified and "approved hardware"