44 replies to this topic

[jwasko]

What? No way you could fit two Big Salvo tanks into a DS's shell. Especially not side-by-side...maybe you could fit one behind the other, but then you wouldn't be able to get the rearmost tank's air output to the barrels. Well, at least not without drastically decreasing range.

If you really want to make a BS/DS integration, you'll need to make some sort of a new shell.

Also, I don't think that it will be so simple to modify the BS's trigger system. You should try a Marvelous salvo (you could even leave one SMDTG blast chamber on it to serve as a "last ditch" shot). Or, you could try using two of those directional control valves (one for each BS chamber). You could easily place them side-by-side, making the switch from one to the other quick and easy.

On a side note...I've been considering doing a BS/DS integration myself for a while now, but am still getting the kinks worked out. One problem is the constriction that the DS puts on the air before it gets to the darts; in my tests, the dart got horrible range. Another is that the barrels are too close together for the large-diameter BS chambers.

I may end up making a homemade version of the DS's break-action barrel assembly, with separated barrels and far less air constriction.

[Ambience 327]

What? No way you could fit two Big Salvo tanks into a DS's shell. Especially not side-by-side...maybe you could fit one behind the other, but then you wouldn't be able to get the rearmost tank's air output to the barrels. Well, at least not without drastically decreasing range.

Was I mis-reading imaseoulman's comment then:

One quick comment, the thickness of tubing is no longer an issue if you attach the dump valves directly to the tank. The air rushing out won't be restricted by the tubing (it will be emptying from the tanks) so the limiting factor will be how fast the dump valves can release air. Good luck with the pump!

I thought that meant that tubing attached to the "barrel side" of a blast chamber (which is basically just a tank & valve combo, right?) wouldn't restrict the airflow coming out of the valve, so I could just snake some tubing from the blast chambers to the air outlet and get decent ranges. Is that not correct?

I know they aren't going to fit side-by-side, I was figuring on staggering them, so they'd be offset left and right, with one situated behind the other, and tubing running from each blast chamber to the air outlet. Would a length of 1/4" tubing provide too much dead space between the blast chamber and the air outlet, or would it restrict the air somehow? I really want to get this thing working, regardless of the method I have to use, and keep it war-legal if at all possible. I love the look and feel of the Double Shot (color scheme notwithstanding) and if I can get somewhere around 80-100 feet flat from each barrel, this thing would probably be the perfect primary for the way I play.

[imaseoulman]

Was I mis-reading imaseoulman's comment then:

One quick comment, the thickness of tubing is no longer an issue if you attach the dump valves directly to the tank. The air rushing out won't be restricted by the tubing (it will be emptying from the tanks) so the limiting factor will be how fast the dump valves can release air. Good luck with the pump!

I thought that meant that tubing attached to the "barrel side" of a blast chamber (which is basically just a tank & valve combo, right?) wouldn't restrict the airflow coming out of the valve, so I could just snake some tubing from the blast chambers to the air outlet and get decent ranges. Is that not correct?

I know they aren't going to fit side-by-side, I was figuring on staggering them, so they'd be offset left and right, with one situated behind the other, and tubing running from each blast chamber to the air outlet. Would a length of 1/4" tubing provide too much dead space between the blast chamber and the air outlet, or would it restrict the air somehow? I really want to get this thing working, regardless of the method I have to use, and keep it war-legal if at all possible. I love the look and feel of the Double Shot (color scheme notwithstanding) and if I can get somewhere around 80-100 feet flat from each barrel, this thing would probably be the perfect primary for the way I play.

Normally you don't want any tubing betweel your blast chamber and your barrel. If it HAS to be there, make sure it is at least 1/4" ID and is no longer than one inch long. You should never have more than an inch between the blast chamber and the dart's position in the barrel. That dead space between the chamber and the dart is the fastest way to decrease ranges.

As far as using the BS trigger system, it's a pain. It can be rigged to shoot only two off by looping some tubing from the third nub to the fourth, but using the BS trigger system in anything other than it's original shell is going to take a lot of work (see Arachnophobia). The EASIEST thing to do would be using a Spiderman Dart Tag Blaster (SMDTG) trigger mech (three position detonation type, one for each barrel). This is what I am currently designing. I'm fairly confident that I can get two BS chambers (my goal is three) in there while maintaining efficiency. If all goes well, I should have a write-up for it in a week, if you're interested.

Again, if you're interested, let me know and I'll make this project my priority and get a write-up posted as soon as I can.

[Ambience 327]

Again, if you're interested, let me know and I'll make this project my priority and get a write-up posted as soon as I can.

So you're trying to fit two BS blast chambers inside a Double Shot? If so, I'm definately interested, as that is my current goal as well. If not, then I didn't understand your statement...? (Seems to be a running theme in this thread! )

Currently, I don't see how I could possibly get two 1.5" diameter x 4" length blast chambers into the Double Shot side by side. And I don't see any way to get them in there at all that doesn't involve more than 1" of tubing for one of the barrels. How much range degredation are we talking here if one of the Blast Chambers ends up behind the other?

For example, if the forward b.c. is 1/2" away from the air outlets, and the rear b.c. is 4 1/2" away - how much worse are the ranges going to be on the second shot? Are we talking small amounts, like 5-10 feet, or deal-breaking amounts, like 20-30 feet or more?

[Draconis]

Well, that's a little disappointing. Maybe some chambers that are a little smaller? Like those of the SSPB or Hornet?

[Ambience 327]

I'm not going to give up on this. I'll wait to see what imaseoulman comes up with, and when I get some money together, hopefully I'll be able to figure something out that will meet my project specifications and remain legal for any wars I might have the fortune to attend.

Any other ideas people might have, feel free to throw them out here. I really want to be able to do the following, in order of importance:

1) Fire each barrel independantly, or both at the same time, easily.
2) Achieve a range of 80-100' flat with each barrel.
3) Keep the whole thing as clean as possible, and be able to re-open the gun for repairs & maintenence.
4) Retain the break-action breech that is characteristic of the Double Shot.
5) Keep the gun war-legal at as many wars as possible.
6) Alter the shell of the Double Shot as little as possible, and have as little as possible visible outside the gun - I like the way it looks and feels right now, and I don't want the aesthetic values to change much.
7) Retain the ammo storage compartment in the stock of the gun.

So, if anyone else wants to join this discussion and share your thoughts, please do!

[CaptainSlug]

2) Achieve a range of 80-100' flat with each barrel.

Sorry, you're just not going to be able to fit enough potential energy into the shell of a double shot to accomplish that. At least not in a way that's safe or functional for war use.
It just lacks the space you need to provide the kind of air volume you need to fire a dart that far. A blast chamber used to fire a dart over 80 feet has to be at least 5 cubic inches in volume. And even then the route from that volume to the barrel has to have very little restriction.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 29 August 2008 - 07:17 PM.

[imaseoulman]

2) Achieve a range of 80-100' flat with each barrel.

Sorry, you're just not going to be able to fit enough potential energy into the shell of a double shot to accomplish that. At least not in a way that's safe or functional for war use.
It just lacks the space you need to provide the kind of air volume you need to fire a dart that far. A blast chamber used to fire a dart over 80 feet has to be at least 5 cubic inches in volume. And even then the route from that volume to the barrel has to have very little restriction.

First, CaptainSlug, where does that 5 cubic inches thing come from? I don't know any mathematical formulas to express pnuematic potential, but real world applications seem to disprove this. An AT2K tank is roughly 1.25" long with a diameter of 1 to 1 1/8". That's a volume of less than 2 cubic inches. I'm just curious about where that 5 cubic inches came from (an SM1500 tank is not much bigger than an AT2K chamber if at all and easily breaks 100' flat).

And Ambience, it is very unlikely that you can fit two BS tanks inside the shell completely without any alterations to the shell and achieve 80' flat. My plan involves some exposed parts and alterations.

[Ambience 327]

I'll be willing to make some compromises on this if I must, but I'm going to see what I can accomplish without any external alteration (aside from the exposed pump handle.

However, I have been thinking along the lines of external stuff as well, and if the internal route fails me, I will hopeully be able to at least keep the thing looking cool and not a Frankenstein's monster of a gun. That's why I posted my criteria in a numbered order - as I mentioned the stuff at the top is more important than the stuff at the bottom, so the most important aspects are independently firing barrels achieving 80'-100' flat, keeping it clean and maintainable, and keeping the break-action breech. The other things will be icing on the cake.

Also, I currently have two broken DS's, so some trial and error work might be possible, depending on how cheaply I can get my hands on the required modding materials.

[CaptainSlug]

2) Achieve a range of 80-100' flat with each barrel.

Sorry, you're just not going to be able to fit enough potential energy into the shell of a double shot to accomplish that. At least not in a way that's safe or functional for war use.
It just lacks the space you need to provide the kind of air volume you need to fire a dart that far. A blast chamber used to fire a dart over 80 feet has to be at least 5 cubic inches in volume. And even then the route from that volume to the barrel has to have very little restriction.

First, CaptainSlug, where does that 5 cubic inches thing come from? I don't know any mathematical formulas to express pnuematic potential, but real world applications seem to disprove this. An AT2K tank is roughly 1.25" long with a diameter of 1 to 1 1/8". That's a volume of less than 2 cubic inches. I'm just curious about where that 5 cubic inches came from (an SM1500 tank is not much bigger than an AT2K chamber if at all and easily breaks 100' flat).

Practical tests. 4 to 5 ci @ 35psi is optimal if you want to be assured of firing past 100 feet.

An AT2k has a volume between 2 and 3 ci.
A Big Blast has between 4 and 5 ci
A Titan has a volume of 6.5ci

An AT2k or 1500 has to have a plugged pump in order to reach the pressure level needed to fire up to or beyond 100 feet. A Big Blast does not because it has more volume and a less restrictive valve.
You can fire a dart over 100 feet at only 15psi if you have a larger firing volume and an extremely unrestrictive trigger valve.

Edited by CaptainSlug, 02 September 2008 - 11:31 AM.

[imaseoulman]

I'm almost finished with the Double Shot mod. I need to put on barrels and improve the seal between the tanks and the barrels. This is probably going to make for the fastest reloading breach system ever.

As far as meeting the objectives:

1) Fire each barrel independantly, or both at the same time, easily.
2) Achieve a range of 80-100' flat with each barrel.
3) Keep the whole thing as clean as possible, and be able to re-open the gun for repairs & maintenence.
4) Retain the break-action breech that is characteristic of the Double Shot.
5) Keep the gun war-legal at as many wars as possible.
6) Alter the shell of the Double Shot as little as possible, and have as little as possible visible outside the gun - I like the way it looks and feels right now, and I don't want the aesthetic values to change much.
7) Retain the ammo storage compartment in the stock of the gun.

1) Accomplished, and it is easy.
2) Accomplished.
3) Not quite as clean as I was hoping, but clean enough that it doesn't look sloppy. It can be re-opened for repairs/maintenance.
4) YES!!! This is what makes it so cool.
5) I don't see any problem with legality, though mine will be using a LPA tank and that may cause some concern.
6) I altered it as little as possible, but there is quite a bit visible outside the gun. When modding, making a blaster look cool is never one of my main objectives. The feel, however, is important and the feel is identical to a stock DoubleShot.
7) Accomplished. Eventually I may end up extending the stock. I've never used a DoubleShot in a war before so I have no idea how useful the ammo holder is, but I imagine it could shave a bit of time off of reloading and free up some pocket space for other things. We'll see.

I'll get a write-up posted soon, hopefully in the next couple of days.

[Ambience 327]

Sounds great - I'm really looking forward to what you've done with this. I will definately use your mod as a reference for mine when I scrape the cash together to start working on it!

I've never used a DoubleShot in a war before so I have no idea how useful the ammo holder is, but I imagine it could shave a bit of time off of reloading and free up some pocket space for other things. We'll see.

Well, prior to my Longshot and AT2K, the Double Shot was actually my primary of choice for our indoor wars. I got two of the earlier models that were actually fairly powerful and accurate - they outperformed my Mavs before I removed their AR's, and they were stock! Even with the shells being used, the ammo holder in the stock seemed to help a lot with reloading time. The only time I would store their ammo elsewhere would be when I was camping - i.e. guarding a flag location or a critical hallway area during an objective game. Then I would lay the shells out in easy reach to avoid having to pull them out of the stock during reload. I can see the ammo storage compartment being quite useful in a shell-less breech setup like we're discussing. You could really only get faster with ammo holders on top of the barrels themselves. (Which I am considering, at least as an option.)

[rork]

Imaseoulman: I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with. I'm always tempted by the Doubleshot's price tag, but I've never made the investment, as they look like utter shit, performance-wise. Cool, break-action, zombie-stomping shit, but nevertheless...~Rork

[Draconis]

I am also excited to see the results of this mod.... You always provide excellent details with your write-ups, so I'm sure that will take some time.

[imaseoulman]

I finished the mod today. It works pretty much as expected. The break-action breach makes reload times much faster. Reload time is about as fast as a flip breach is for the second shot, but with the break action breach, it's that fast every time. It is very accurate. And there is one little surprise that you'll see when I do the write-up for "DoubleShotGun." Nothing super exciting, but a nice little touch to make the blaster even more battle-worthy. I'm (hopefully) going to a war this September month, so I'm excited to war test it.

I was just going to do the write-up tonight, but I lost my card reader and I'm waiting for another to come in the mail so I can post pictures. Until then...

[Ambience 327]

Man, the suspense is killing me. I will bend all of my psychic will to moving your package through the mail quicker so I can see what you've done with this!!!!

[imaseoulman]

Don't get too excited. It doesn't really look like much, but the function is there. If you have all the parts, it's worth it, if not, it's not something I'd go through hoops to get the parts needed.

[Ambience 327]

Bah - humbug I say! I LOVE the feel of the Double Shot in my hands. If you've managed to keep that, and it performs as you say, I want to see it!

Then I will refine it, and make it my own (read - copy your design and run with it), and I shall rule the NIC with an iron fist! Mwahahahahaha!!!

Um...

Yeah...



So, has your package arrived yet?

[VACC]

NERF WARS are ruled by nerfers. The NIC is ruled by me. Nerf damn-it!


VACC
~My grandeur is not a delusion!~

[imaseoulman]

NERF WARS are ruled by nerfers. The NIC is ruled by me. Nerf damn-it!


VACC
~My grandeur is not a delusion!~

Here! Here! I'm going to a war this month that I'll be hosting in Idaho (if anybody cares to show up, it's in Rexburg, ID). I'll have to take some video footage to prove I'm not just an internet junkie who mods NERF guns. I've been NERFing regularly long before I did my first barrel replacement.