28 replies to this topic

[CO]

Here goes my currently-half-baked-could-be-revolutionary-idea:
Problem being addressed: the fact that most homemades (belt, breach, or clip-fed) fail to maximize the ROF.

That is to say, while Boltsniper's (SCAR-N) claims a Max ROF of 150s/min, (which would be more than awesome) it does not seem that even with such quality, anything resembling a burst-fire or semi-auto trigger system has been implemented. The (SCAR-N)'s theoretical ROF, if I'm reading this correctly, is FAR (hahaha) greater than it's experimental ROF. Furthermore, it seems that no kind of an electrical system has ever been built to enable a semi-auto or burst-fire mode. If I am wrong, shoot me down and make a writeup; otherwise, here's my proposition: I am in the process of developing this (hence no pics), it's taking longer than I'd thought (due to budget and some unforseen problems in the circuit design) and thought I would throw down my cards as a preface to my writeup to see 1) if this has been done, and 2) if there is a simpler method that I have not yet read about.

I have seen several examples of what CAN be done with a sprinkler valve... or any solenoid for that matter... but why not hook the solenoid up to the core circuit foind in a frequency generator and use this, powered by 3 rechargeable 9-volt batteries, to generate a VERY precise mechanismto pulse air at a given rate. It seems advantageous to use the pressurized air blast to re-cock the bolt as well as fire the gun. In actuality, any firing mechanism which relies on air pressure to re-load and re-cock the gun would work...


http://science.howst...-gun1.htm<br />

and


http://science.howst...-gun2.htm<br />

have some great flash media dEffeminateting several of these mechanisms.

Once the firing rate can be controlled by an electronic signal, and thereby manipulated, there's no reason you couldn't design a system which allows the user to experimentally determine and pre-set their gun's max ROF. Then, using this as the wavelength for (optimally) a square-wave function, have a simple switching mechanism to switch between say 3-modes which I would find useful:
semi-automatic, 3-round burst, and single shot.

I can't get over the apparent fact that nobody has tried this yet... how freakin' SWEET would that be? to be able to throw a switch on the side of the gun and not only know that you are firing as fast as the gun will allow, but be able to switch firing modes like that? If we have any other Physics Majors or EE Majors here, speak up! I could use someone to bounce circuit design off of.

I'm busy the rest of this week but will get back to it this weekend and try to show you old pros what I have so far... even if it's just a bunch of wires and a valve. I can borrow my friend's webcam so expect some powning video quality (that was sarcastic)... I'm taking suggestions for a soundtrack as well

-co

Edited by C.O., 18 October 2006 - 05:25 PM.

[davenelz]

Are the SCAR's boltsniper's? I thought they were Carbon's.

Am I mistaken?
Maybe i'm thinkin of SNAP

[Pineapple]

*Yawn*

I have categorized, on my work computer, a database of everyone who wants to revolutionize Nerf with extreme rates-of-fire, long range, authentic military weaponry, winged darts, and various vehicles, mines, sensors and alarms, grenades, and other things.

The file is listed "B.S." Many of our regular posting members' names are on it.

I'll address your post item by item, only because it begins to leak out some arrogance on your part.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

Here goes a revolutionary idea:
Problem being addressed: the fact that most homemades (belt, breach, or clip-fed) fail to maximize the ROF.

That is to say, while Boltsniper's (SCAR-N) claims a Max ROF of 150s/min, (which would be more than awesome) it does not seem that even with such quality, anything resembling a burst-fire or semi-auto trigger system has been implemented. The (SCAR-N)'s theoretical ROF, if I'm reading this correctly, is FAR (hahaha) greater than it's experimental ROF. Furthermore, it seems that no kind of an electrical system has ever been built to enable a semi-auto or burst-fire mode.

That is, because no one who REGULARLY Nerfs is concerned with incredible ROF above and beyond say, an RF 20 or a Magstrike/Powerclip. Many, if not most of us, also paintball, and for the most part, our Mags, Cockers, and Tippy's provide enough insane firepower to satisfy our rapid-fire needs.

To have say, a 300 round-per-minute (5 shots/ second) auto, which is about what a Magstrike can do...where do we store all the darts? Captain Slug did a compressed air assisted, 20 round Magstrike...what can you do beyond that? WHY would you want more than that in Nerf? Just asking rhetorically.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

If I am wrong, shoot me down and make a writeup; otherwise, here's my proposition: I am in the process of developing this (hence no pics), it's taking longer than I'd thought (due to budget and some unforseen problems in the circuit design) and thought I would throw down my cards as a preface to a writeup to see 1) if this has been done, and 2) if there is a simpler method that I have not yet read about.

Yes, it's been done to the degree you write about (concept and thought), and nothing beyond that. FromAbove thought that he'd have a fairly high ROF homemade, but while he didn't accoplish that goal in particular, he made a remarkable homemade with a unique mag-fed system that had respectable range.

Most everyone else who posted something hasn't gone beyond just ideas. They basically die from lack of reality.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

I have seen several rather lame examples of what CAN be done with a sprinkler valve... or any solenoid for that matter... but why not hook the solenoid up to the core circuit foind in a frequency generator and use this, powered by 3 rechargeable 9-volt batteries, to generate a VERY precise firing mechanism.

I take offense here, not just for me, but for all my contemporaries who have actually MADE SOMETHING and not just blew hot air. All designs of pneumatic Nerf blasters, of which many (mine especially) were copied from the spud gun realm, utilize the simple single shot breech load system. It works for us.

You know that the voltage required to trigger the solenoid on a sprinkler valve (24v) would probably cause enough of a voltage drop that the precise frequency generator to not quite do what it supposed to do. I know that my sole electrically fired spudder would eat up 3--9volt batteries every 50 shots or so.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

With a clip-fed system, use the blast to re-cock the bolt as well as fire the gun. In actuality, any firing mechanism which relies on air pressure to re-load and re-cock the gun would work...

Boltsniper actually had a cylinder mag, air-powered design on the docket...and I don't want to misquote anything, but I think it was put on the back burner partly because of the amount of air required to cycle the system to the next shot would necessitate a much larger air tank than he desired. Mind you now, we don't have the luxury of HPA or CO2 or nitrogen, so we limit ourselves to PVC pipe tanks.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

Once the firing rate can be controlled by an electronic signal, and thereby manipulated, there's no reason you couldn't design a system which allows the user to experimentally determine and pre-set their gun's max ROF. Then, using this as the wavelength for (optimally) a square-wave function, have a simple switching mechanism to switch between say 3-modes which I would find useful:
semi-automatic, 3-round burst, and single shot.

I'm not into high ROF paintball (I'm a stock-class player), but your idea somewhat reminds me of an E-board for the many paintball markers out there. They have an e-trigger for everything from Tippys to Spyders, 'cockers to Mags to Timmys to Ions and Angels, with everything in between.

Personally, I enjoy Nerf because of it's SIMPLICITY.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

I can't get over the apparent fact that nobody has tried this yet... how freakin' SWEET would that be? to be able to throw a switch on the side of the gun and not only know that you are firing as fast as the gun will allow, but be able to switch firing modes like that? If we have any other Physics Majors or EE Majors here, speak up! I could use someone to bounce circuit design off of.

We do have some pretty astute creators here; Captain Slug is the one who's actually been busy making things as well as talking about them, when he's not wrestling with his health. If you search the homemade boards you'll find that there are quite a few who actually have thought about using electronics for Nerf...but again, WHY? Why spend the amount of money that would get you a decent PB marker, when the primary reason why most of us Nerf is the affordability of the guns/toys we play with.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 05:51 AM, said:

I'm busy the rest of this week but will get back to it this weekend and try to show you old pros what I have so far... even if it's just a bunch of wires and a valve. I can borrow my friend's webcam so expect some powning video quality (that was sarcastic)... I'm taking suggestions for a soundtrack as well

-co

I'd love to see some video...of something. I'd worry more about design and making something that works, than about a soundtrack for the video.


I wish you success in your venture. I've seen enough talk here, that I had to mention it.


-Piney-

[TheCheatIsNotDead]

When you have something that is fully electronic, capable of extreme ROF, and so extreme... To me I wonder if it is even NERF anymore. All of my modifications that I will EVER make will involve mechanics. No CO2, no Electronics (with the possible exception of a tactical light), and a fairly reasonable ROF. When we start making things like that, it begins a arms race until it becomes paintball and airsoft, just with slightly different ammo.

To me, Nerf is Nerf because of it's limitations, it's price range, and because it's a toy. When it becomes that extreme... It's not NERF to me.

That's just my 2 cents.

~TCIND

[Vyperaeon Omega]

I cannot imagine that a select-fire electronically cycled Nerf weapon with maximized rate of fire would be even remotely portable without serious funding dedicated to the miniaturization of key components. As others have already stated, one advantage Nerfing enjoys over other tactical engagement hobbies (hehe) is its simplicity and relatively low cost. Piney asked the best question: why would a ROF higher than that of the Magstrike or RF20 be necessary in a Nerf battle? The faster you empty your weapon, the sooner someone is going to rush your sorry ass and barrel-tap you (if you're lucky and your opponent is merciful).

[CO]

let me just say to Pineapple that I sincerely apologize for any percieved arrogance on my part, It was certainly unintentional, I can see how 'revolutionary' was perhaps not the correct title but don't let my diction influence your blatant skepticism. Go easy for a sec, I was hoping for something more than a flame. so IF any of your posts were worth storing on MY work computer, I wouldn't HAVE to label them because they'd be in the trash... now how about you revise your post and try to actually understand... no one needs this...
Forums aren't for that kind of shizzle aight? I would have expected your clear experience to develop into a sense for 'constructive feedback' rather than whatever you call that response.

Now...
overlooking the tone, I don't know how to quote. No one's denying that I'm new to posting and I'm sure it's a button I missed somewhere so I'll do this MY way... just get over it and someone (1) person tell me how ro quote directly

• yes, Davenelz, the FAR and SCAR-N are both in the Boltsniper armament

• For pineapple

YOU

(people)concerned with incredible ROF above and beyond say, an RF 20 or a Magstrike/Powerclip. Many, if not most of us, also paintball, and for the most part, our Mags, Cockers, and Tippy's provide enough insane firepower to satisfy our rapid-fire needs.

To have say, a 300 round-per-minute (5 shots/ second) auto, which is about what a Magstrike can do...where do we store all the darts? Captain Slug did a compressed air assisted, 20 round Magstrike...what can you do beyond that? WHY would you want more than that in Nerf? Just asking rhetorically.

ME

What I said was, in essence, Boltsniper has some extreme theoretical ROF stats which cannot be based upon experimental measurements as in the 8-round video clip provided at his homepage. It takes FAR longer than the 3.2seconds that it should take... (not even accounting for reload time) to get a ROF of 150Hz. No offense towards boltsniper at ALL. I greatly admire his guns and craftsmanship. All I'm saying is that no HOMEMADE has ever come close to having a decent semi-automatic mechanism... In my opinion (although this was not stated in the original post) this is unacheivable without a magstrike or an electric mechanism... such as that which I am explaining.

YOU

I take offense here (responding to how I planned to actuate the solenoid with a frequency generator) not just for me, but for all my contemporaries who have actually MADE SOMETHING and not just blew hot air. All designs of pneumatic Nerf blasters, of which many (mine especially) were copied from the spud gun realm, utilize the simple single shot breech load system. It works for us.

You know that the voltage required to trigger the solenoid on a sprinkler valve (24v) would probably cause enough of a voltage drop that the precise frequency generator to not quite do what it supposed to do. I know that my sole electrically fired spudder would eat up 3--9volt batteries every 50 shots or so.

ME

I'm sorry, but this is too good to resist... if all you mess with is spud guns... then you're the only one here blowing hot air... Again, I don't know how spud guns and their mechanism relates to me proposing to use a frequency generator to 'tune' the gun and regulate the ROF. Are you saying that I shouldn't consider this because you and your cronies don't use it on your spud guns? "Just asking rhetorically." If so, you should consider that this idea was meant to be applied to guns with more than a one-shot capacity hence my mentioning a possible application as a semi-automatic firing mechanism... If I read you correctly, you're arguing that it would be pointless to use this to make a semi-automatic spudd cannon... Brilliant? ...I don't understand the relevance of this remark. Please clarify.

On the second paragraph: yes, I am well aware that the standard sprinkler solenoid runs on 24v 50-60Hz. and power usage is actually a very valid critique but to start off saying that a mechanism which you know so little about will draw too much power to be useful is a hell of a bad argument at this stage. You have NO way of proving or even suggesting that this is infact the limiting factor. It's brain-dead comments like this that keep people from discussing half-baked ideas in forums. YES THAT"S RIGHT, THIS IS A HALF-BAKED IDEA. SAVE THE COFFIN NAILS FOR LATER... preferably after I post some pics/ a video. The bad thing for you, Pineapple, is that you probably can't read a circuit diagram... which is why you won't be able to critique this next post. Again, SPEAK UP IF YOU KNOW CIRCUIT DESIGN... I COULD USE SOMEONE TO BOUNCE IDEAS OFF OF.

YOU

Boltsniper actually had a cylinder mag, air-powered design on the docket...and I don't want to misquote anything, but I think it was put on the back burner partly because of the amount of air required to cycle the system to the next shot would necessitate a much larger air tank than he desired. Mind you now, we don't have the luxury of HPA or CO2 or nitrogen, so we limit ourselves to PVC pipe tanks.

ME

This I know... It was called the BULLPUP TACTICAL RIFLE or BS-7 and you are right, it was indefinately put on the back burner. As I hope I described, the basis of this thread pertains primarily to a new developement in using a solenoid valve but your criticism DOES provoke an interesting problem. Yes, I agree, it will take MORE air to re-cock the gun AND fire the gun, perhaps as much as TWICE the volume but I cannot even begin to address this as I have not decided upon the action of the firing mechanism... THIS I NEED HELP WITH... EVEN YOU, PINEAPPLE, CAN HELP. For the time being, let us AS A GROUP duscuss how to make such a mechanism as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Again, check out the 'howstuffworks' links I provided and see If you can't come up with any ideas similar to... or even identical to those! That's a GREAT way to help this topic. I would say that any such mechanism demands a regulator and has a little way to go before being built in MY hands.

YOU

I'm not into high ROF paintball... Personally, I enjoy Nerf because of it's SIMPLICITY.

ME

well, that's something that you'll have to come to terms with but if you look at some of the guns out there, you'll notice that, like so many things in life, there is a strong tendancy towards complexity. Get used to it or Get over it but don't ever get in my way with an argument like that; and STOP MAKING RANDOM GENERAL REFRENCES TO YOUR PAINTBALL EXPERIENCES!!!

YOU

We do have some pretty astute creators here;... If you search the homemade boards you'll find that there are quite a few who actually have thought about using electronics for Nerf...but again, WHY? Why spend the amount of money that would get you a decent PB marker, when the primary reason why most of us Nerf is the affordability of the guns/toys we play with.

ME

*clapping* good point, it will cost more... yes, when I was writing, I was even going to suggest the application of an e-trigger rather than a simple button-trigger but thought anyone could figure this out. SO...why even mention this as an idea? because the budget of the player is a subjective thing. I have an old FG and could probably get my hands on another 6 out-of-date ones later this year so... for me the money does not seem too out-of proportion. e-bay has old FGs for about (5$ - shipping and handling) OR if you don't want to be able to actively tune the rate atwhich the valve flutters, you could very easily replace this whole mechanism with a simple timing chip... probably cost you about 5$ the valve is another 15$ at Lowes/Home Depot and I can't say for sure since I haven't finished the circuit diagram but other electronic components, call it $20.00 TOPS if you have to buy everything in packs of like 10. so... much like your point about it taking too much power, save the coffin nails until you atleast have a freakin GUN. (that works on 2 levels since we're making a gun... )

YOU

I'd love to see some video...of something. I'd worry more about design and making something that works, than about a soundtrack for the video.

ME

umm, forgive me for having a light attitude? It's a JOKE son...it's a JOKE. take it EASY!
I said I'd slap up a video and/or pics so for now, thanks for the 3 constructive points, see if you can't put that pent up pissed-off-ness into helping me develop a possible blowback mechanism.
-co
PS next time, just spit out the three sentences and call it a post. it would save the both of us time. oh, and Please please please please please don't EVER flame ANYONE'S half-baked ideas like that EVER again. It doesn't do ANYBODY any good. If I was some freakin brilliant 14-year kid, I'm not, but If I was, can you imagine how your post would shut me up? Just don't do it. As I've read admins s.ay over and over and over again, keep it PG and constructive

Vyperaeon Omega, on Oct 18 2006, 02:24 PM, said:

I cannot imagine that a select-fire electronically cycled Nerf weapon with maximized rate of fire would be even remotely portable without serious funding dedicated to the miniaturization of key components. As others have already stated, one advantage Nerfing enjoys over other tactical engagement hobbies (hehe) is its simplicity and relatively low cost. Piney asked the best question: why would a ROF higher than that of the Magstrike or RF20 be necessary in a Nerf battle? The faster you empty your weapon, the sooner someone is going to rush your sorry ass and barrel-tap you (if you're lucky and your opponent is merciful).

hmm hmm hmm. I've seen this same problem of how much it costs to reduce key components come into play in MAV R&D. However, the only bulky thing that I plan to incorporate is the frequency generator and the poser supply. Honestly, the FG CAN be removed/stripped once the optimal ROF is deduced (I probably won't) and theere's little to be done about the power supply but I can tell you that it WILL be rechargeable and I'm sure we can design something that will last the length of a battle... by the way, what are some estimations for the length of a typical NERF battle? 30 min? 3 hr? 10 hr?!?

As I addressed in part of my reply to Pineapple, just because some people in this forum don't understand Circuit Design doesn't mean a novel idea should be shot down for being too complex. It's an avenue which few people have persued. People who design their own Laser Tag equipment in similar forums deal primarily with electronics and only rely on mechanical developments as a supplementary and un-preferable avenue. The converse seems to be true for nerfers, there is a bias towards mechanical developments but there's no real reason... ESPECIALLY for homemades which don't have to be based on the mechanical spring-operated plungers of most NERF guns... why electronics couldn't be aplied to make a faster Nerfer rifle of any kind. It's good to have opinions and if you don't want to mess with building a circuit then that's awesome, whatever, I can't MAKE you; but that's not an argument that should be addressed in this specific thread and before you QUIT this thread, Try to understand that, yes, this will be more thought and theoretical argument than most of the 'bam.. I made a gun' homemades... BECAUSE of the complexity involved but this means I need all the help I can get.
-co

(by the way, I also enjoy other what was the term... tactical engagement hobbies... Lazer tag, paintball, spitball )

woh, what a post! was that a reccord word-length? Red Badge of Courrage ain't got NOTHIN on me!

Edited by C.O., 18 October 2006 - 09:53 PM.

[ompa]

Alright. I'm sure both Carrtoon and I can back this up at this point; overly complex homemades or modifications do not work well in wars. Now having been to my first war, I can say that overly complex designs get annoying, and fast. At the most recent war I was at, people were still using the classic single-shot guns (except for one longshot, and my homemade) that work reliably every time, and that you could probably take apart and fix any problem within 5 minutes.

Oh, and do show a little more respect. The guy's an admin, telling him to stop doing anything would be an unwise decision.

Also, due to the fact that you haven't been here for an extrodinarily long amount of time, you need to realize the sheer amount of ideas just like yours that come through here, and that maybe 1 out of the at least 50 ideas that I've alone seen here that get built. Even if the people do have the knowledge to do so, many of whom I believed did have the knowledge, the time it would have taken and the materials necessary just ended up too costly, or they ended up losing interest in making the gun.

While I'm sure that we all look forwards to the production of your new "super-gun", but until some progress is made in terms of something being built and photographed, you need to understand that all of us here will be skeptical. Most of us will be glad to congratulate you and take back our words once something is built, but until then, you should learn to accept the skepticism you will encounter.

Lastly:

Quote

I FORMALLY apologize for any percieved arrogance on my part

caught my attention. I have not ever met a more arrogant sounding person in my entire life. Maybe that is because I don't know many people, but I'm simply speaking from my own perspective.

If you want a more receiving forum that you can get ideas off of for such a complex gun, why not just go to a spudgun forum, or try signing up for Nerfhq? I guess you can label the site as very wary of new ideas, for reasons that I have stated above. If you don't feel like you can deal with it, I suggest a different forum. It will be difficult to change the opinions of every last member of NH.

~ompa

[NerfMonkey]

I assume all you plan on using this gun for is shooting things and screwing around with it. That's fine. NH just tends not to be too accepting of new ideas when they're incomplete. If you had posted a video or pictures of this new idea after it was completed, we would all have applauded you. But, since you simply told us the basic idea and asked for help on it, most people here aren't willing to help you. The thing is, most people here aren't interested in ideas this complex. Sure, it would be kickass if you pulled it off and had something to fire Nerf darts of all things at incredible speeds like that, but (hopefully) the majority of us here are more interested in actually playing than working with ideas like this. There's nothing wrong with building something like this to fire Nerf darts at the speeds you're talking about, it's just that (at least this is the way I feel) Nerf, as Pineapple said, is about simplicity. We all just want to go outside and shoot each other. When you speak of "revolutionizing" Nerf in such a way as this, it really isn't well-received at all because most of us don't want guns firing that fast without some serious disadvantages.

Example:

A 2k, LBB, etc. will get great range and accuracy but bad rate of fire while a Powerclip/Magstrike/RF20 will get great rate of fire but somewhat poor range and usually very bad accuracy. The gun you're talking about building and "revolutionizing" Nerf with would have all of these things and more. That would just take all the fun out of Nerf for me. Some people would love to have all of these things in one gun, but after ACTUALLY NERFING a few times, I realize that that's just pointless. I used to be interested in this kind of thing (although I knew far less about it than you seem to), but I didn't get the same rush out of paintball that I do from Nerf, so if you want to have something like this go ahead, but don't assume it will be a welcomed idea at a place like this where the majority of us really Nerf and know what we're talking about when we say that a gun like that would take the point out of Nerf. Put it this way: my most complex gun is a Big Blast (LBB clone) with the pump plugged and a PVC coupler. THAT'S IT. And I still enjoy Nerf (like, actually playing, not just modding) more than anything else I've been into.

Point is, Pineapple and ompa (and I'd like to think myself as well) have been around the block a few times. There's a difference between Nerf and airsoft/paintball, and if we were all into high rate of fire cannons that fire 200' with 300 shots in cue, why do you think any of us would've chosen Nerf? Granted, some of us Nerf, and paintball, and airsoft all at once, but they still have to be kept separate. That's what makes Nerf special and why all of us geeks have devoted so much time to it (except Pineapple, he's a busy guy and not really a geek, but he still enjoys Nerf).

Edited by NerfMonkey, 18 October 2006 - 04:15 PM.

[CO]

WHAT?!?!? argh... oompa, I'm sorry, how would you have me edit my post to come off as NOT arrogant? There is something here that I'm not getting at ALL. Pineapple comes in and says my idea is BULL SHIT you're right, I absoloutley took a sarcastic tone with that first line, let me delete that but can I leave the smaller jests? is THAT ok? would you revoke the developing theme of "beat down the new guy for reacting to an un-provoked grill?" That's what I see here... YES it's biased but I can't EXPRESS how shocked I was at Pineapple's reply.

Let me neuter my post and let's get some actual discussion going here...
I'm sincerely sorry oompa for WHATEVER it was... that's as un-arrogant as I can possibly be.
-co

[mav3r1c]

I'm indifferent. If it works thats great, if it doesn't you tried. I wouldn't get upset over everyone jabbing you. They'll stop if you show some results. But Ompa did have a good point not to piss of admins.

[WratH]

So you want to make a high end paintball gun.

PS: Tippy's, cockers and mags for the most part aren't fast.

[CO]

ok, nerf monkey and oompa, you are well understood.
Thank you for the words of a pacifist. NerfMinkey, as I think I stated initially, I wanted help because I thought the motto "two heads are better than one" applied to nerf designs and I sensed that there were some real professionals in this forum. Not to roast the others too much, but this is quite simply the most active and therefore the most productive nerf-related forum on the net. I thought it would be my best bet of finding some genuine go-to people. It took me 20 minutes of reading and re-reading boltsniper's description of the SCAR-N to understand its full functionality. If you can, turn around and look at the ideas in the Homemade section from an outsider's POV, you will find that the complexity I request is already there, just in mechanical systems as opposed to someone's home-brew circuit. Does anyone here know enough about circuit diagramming to understand something like a relay? or I mean have any of you read a book on or taken a course on any kind of BASIC circuit analysis? Regardless, I'm not giving up on this. I've always hated not finishing what I start and this won't be a first so pineapple, I apologize ok? I know you're admin and actually, I see that a lot of you are big-whigs around here. But just because you have experience doesn't or shouldn't exempt you from the declared code of conduct.
that's my last word to pineapple so... here's where it seems "we" (I don't know if anyone else is actuially willing to help me but I'll assume there's SOMEONE out there) stand as far as problems to be addressed...

• I need some specific help with circuit design
• how do we estimate the volume of air required... I think that is by far the most valid concern because once we hit backpack-sized, there's nowhere to go but to increase the PSI and I have no clue what kind of pressures large-scale PVC (is 3" the largest?) can be tested at safely.
• Which method of a blowback device should be used which doesn't divert the direct airflow from the valve and minimizes the volume of air lost?

look at the Blowback model and Gas System on the two how things work pages...

http://science.howst...-gun1.htm<br />

http://science.howst...-gun2.htm<br />

would either of these systems seem feasible? Pretend we all had boltsniper's gunsmithing skills...
-co
PS
I like WratH's comment, yeah... kinda... ha
but cheaper... and better in every respect... and hand-made... out of PVC and the broken dreams of a thousand children
that's about it...

Edited by C.O., 18 October 2006 - 05:11 PM.

[Pineapple]

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

let me just say to Pineapple that I sincerely apologize for any percieved arrogance on my part, It was certainly unintentional, I can see how 'revolutionary' was perhaps not the correct title but don't let my diction influence your blatant skepticism.

Go easy for a sec, I was hoping for something more than a flame. so IF any of your posts were worth storing on MY work computer, I wouldn't HAVE to label them because they'd be in the trash... now how about you revise your post and try to actually understand... no one needs this...

No apologies necessary, I'm fine with people calling me all kinds of stuff, even in life. I get at least one or two threats against my life and my family's life every year. I currently have someone who makes harrassing phone calls saying that I'm a false prophet (I'm involved in Christian ministry), and that I'm doomed to judgement and hell's fire.

But just for your information, what I did wasn't a flame. Trust me.

I call it "Forum administration". If you don't like what you see, PM the primary site owner (cxwq or VACC), and ask for my removal. I'm just doing what they ask me to do, in my own style.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

On the second paragraph: yes, I am well aware that the standard sprinkler solenoid runs on 24v 50-60Hz. and power usage is actually a very valid critique but to start off saying that a mechanism which you know so little about will draw too much power to be useful is a hell of a bad argument at this stage. You have NO way of proving or even suggesting that this is infact the limiting factor. It's brain-dead comments like this that keep people from discussing half-baked ideas in forums.

Just for the record, in addition to administrating a six-acre retreat center, I work a lot with and around a 30 station Hunter automated irrigation system. I may not know as much as you about electricity and electronics, but I do work with sprinkler valves and solenoids...a lot. Son. It's one of the many things I'm constantly exposed to.

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

PS next time, just spit out the three sentences and call it a post. it would save the both of us time. oh, and Please please please please please don't EVER flame ANYONE'S half-baked ideas like that EVER again. It doesn't do ANYBODY any good. If I was some freakin brilliant 14-year kid, I'm not, but If I was, can you imagine how your post would shut me up? Just don't do it. As I've read admins s.ay over and over and over again, keep it PG and constructive

Again, if you really want to see some flames, let another admin know. Besides me, we're cool, but I figured to let you know where most of NH stands regarding "Revolutionary" ideas.

I've seen at least twenty posts from users over the years with the notion of making an "electronic" firing Nerf blaster...and countless others with ideas that would make you shake your head in amazement. Yes, I'm skeptical. But no, I don't use language that would equate a flame. I'll let another admin do that for me.

A vast majority of this particular forum's users are in fact, kids with huge imaginations and not much else going for them. I myself am way too old to be playing with plastic toy guns, but my children, our neighborhood kids, and even my brother-in-law find much value and enjoyment running around with our kids and shootin' it up.

My role as a forum admin is to be able to question the actual intent of someone's posts so as not to let the pace and flow of discussions descend to what you'd hear at a typical middle-school lunch table. People here appreciate substance much more than theory/ dreams/ wishes.

There are other forums that discuss ideas and theories at great length. Boltsniper.com is the first that comes to mind for serious scratchbuilders; NerfHQ is an idea and dream fest, but go there yourself and see if that floats along the same vein.


Again, no hard feelings, I never thought of what I posted as a flame.

Carry on. I'm on my lunch break.



-Piney-

[CO]

Alright, that'll be my last peep until the writeup. (save all of us some time)
-co

[ompa]

Best of luck.

I don't mean to come across as rude, just letting you know before someone else gets to you.

Best of luck, hope everything turns out well for you.

~ompa

[InkJet]

When I play any of my "war" games, airsoft or nerf, i think certain guns just have a "feel" to them. A long range gun, like the crossbow, should have a slow rate of fire, and the close range guns, PC's, MS, should have a good ROF, but worse range. It just wouldn't feel right to see an opponent running 100 feet away, take aim with your PC, and take him down. It would take away the fun.

I think to balance this, you could maybe just give your gun a small magazine, say 5 stefans. That way, your opponents might have a chance to rush you. The point in nerf isn't just to desttroy your opponents, but to have fun, and if you're the only one with the high capacity, high ROF, high range, you're the only one that will be happy, and your enemies won't feel like playing any more.

[elf avec gun]

Wowe you guys have all been talking to SGT. PAT to much. I mean really those posts were really really long!!!

Anyways: as a fairly new member I cant help but see some of this from C.O. 's point of view. The guy didnt really do anything wrong except annoy a few admins. His first post was (for the most part) grammaticaly and spelling...ticly was good. Although his ideas may be nonconformist, that is no reason to try to crush his ideas. He was right about the 14 year old genius thing. You shouldn't put down ideas just because that isnt what you would do. Advise against it, say it prob. Wont work because_____, but dont give the guy shit if this was his first "I am gunna build a jetfighter and fly it to the moon" topics.

[CO]

screw silence... (that didn't last long)
inkjet, if you're addressing me, I would say you're right but at the same time, there is a stunning natural evolution towards better stats (ROF, range etc). Essentially what I'm saying is, by the same token, would it be unfair/not good/less fun if one guy was sitting around with a longshot while the rest of us had... fireflies or something? no... we would make it work out and manage to have fun anyway... if nothing else, just rotate who has the slightly better gun.
If you're worried about me writing up this exceedingly complicated gun, making it work, booking a flight to wherever your next armageddon is, and pawning with it, I would say...
I know a very nice man who can help with these sorts of worries and things... just go have a chat...
seriously, what a dream vacation that would be... a trip to the nerf war... not the psychiatrist's office.
-co

Edited by C.O., 18 October 2006 - 09:47 PM.

[InkJet]

Yeah, I guess you have a point, we would work our way around the problem. Just so long as you're willing to play with the handicaps necassary (uneven teams, etc) to make the game fair, I guess it wouldn't be a problem.

On the topic of a clip feeding system, i was thinking it would be interesting to make something like a PC clip, basically a bunch of little barrels mounted on top of each other with some sort of mechanism to kick the barrels up a notch after each shot. Technically, you could have your main barrel, and have the darts just fire into that barrel, and then put foam imbetween each barrel, so that even if the dart was still in the main barrel when the clip advances, the foam imbetween the barrels would seal it off and let the dart continue down the barrel without a loss in air power. It's a bit complicated of a design to just talk about though

[CO]

InkJet, on Oct 18 2006, 11:53 PM, said:

Yeah, I guess you have a point, we would work our way around the problem. Just so long as you're willing to play with the handicaps necassary (uneven teams, etc) to make the game fair, I guess it wouldn't be a problem.

On the topic of a clip feeding system, i was thinking it would be interesting to make something like a PC clip, basically a bunch of little barrels mounted on top of each other with some sort of mechanism to kick the barrels up a notch after each shot. Technically, you could have your main barrel, and have the darts just fire into that barrel, and then put foam imbetween each barrel, so that even if the dart was still in the main barrel when the clip advances, the foam imbetween the barrels would seal it off and let the dart continue down the barrel without a loss in air power. It's a bit complicated of a design to just talk about though

I'm affraid that the only way this gun will be built is with ONE barrel... are you suggesting that we put like 10 barrels lined up on the front of the gun and THAT's what we're 'kicking up a notch'? that seems a bit impractical. on a second thought, I don't think that's what you're saying at all... check your post to see if you said 'barrel' when you meant to say 'clip'. Infact, draw something up in paint and post that sucker up here. For now, lets assume the body to be a breech-loading mechanism for kicks. The real issue is how do we get it to open and close the breech using compressed air which, after closing the breech, is used to launch the dart?
-co
PS w00t! double digits in posts... and almost all on this ONE thread! That uber-long one should count as like 10 in and of itself.

Edited by C.O., 18 October 2006 - 11:23 PM.

[InkJet]

Okay, made a diagram. What i meant by "kick it up a notch" was like on a powerclip, how after each shot the clip is knocked up a bit, or, kicked up a notch .




Basically, the Yellow is your "clip" and each square is a barrel. The green box is the solenoid, and of course i didn't include a design for the clip getting pushed up after each shot, but that would have to be developed later. Basically, the little barrels hold the dart, the air rushes out of the solenoid, into the little barrel, and pushes the dart into the long barrel and out the end. The black imbetween each barrel is the craft foam, so that if the barrels are pushed up while the darts are in the black barrel, the still expanding air pressure isn't lost out of a leak.

This is kind of a hard idea to express though. Just imagine a PC with a long barrel that the darts are shot into from the clip, giving it a long barrel.

[elf avec gun]

Why would he do that? as opposed to a normal spring mag system... you idea would add alot of weight to the gun.

[Pineapple]

C.O., on Oct 18 2006, 06:16 PM, said:

PS w00t! double digits in posts... and almost all on this ONE thread! That uber-long one should count as like 10 in and of itself.

Your first day of posting, and you're already the top poster, from a daily basis.

I'm going to watch this to make sure that's not your only reason for this concept "gun".

"elf_avec_gun" said

You shouldn't put down ideas just because that isnt what you would do. Advise against it, say it prob. Wont work because_____, but dont give the guy shit if this was his first "I am gunna build a jetfighter and fly it to the moon" topics.

I'm going to say this only one time, I believe a lot of people are reading this topic.

When you read enough of these kinds of topics, you can see where my skepticism comes from, and most of you newer members have no clue how many have to be moderated.

This site has the most amount of traffic for a reason.

I'm going to quote another admin, Talio, of whom most of you should be glad is not here right now.

"Talio" said

Some of you new members may be asking yourself why the site is like this. You're probably thinking that if we treat all newbies like this that the game will never grow and this site will eventually die. Unfortunetely for you, that's the furthest from the truth.

We have high standards for this site because it was created to be such. It was created to be a HAVEN from the high school lunch table that is the NIC as it exsists on most forums.

If you feel you will have an issue with living to these standards I want to forward you to our brothers at www.nerfhq.com. Some will argue NHQ is not as quality as this site, which I will not comment on at this time, but they are far more loose with their standards.


We're tough, but we're fair. Actually, scratch that. We're not fair, so tough. Read, figure out how things are done, and enjoy your stay at Nerf Haven.

Were Talio here, about half of the newer posting members would be on 9999 day vacations.

The only reason I'm keeping this thread alive is that C.O. appears to be a student at a prominent Florida university, and he may actually be able to produce SOMETHING. But if it takes 500 posts to do that, as though post count were some measure of respect here, we'll just have to see the outcome.

Anyone else don't like what they see, PM cxwq and have me taken off staff.


-Piney-

[cxwq]

ompa, on Oct 18 2006, 01:45 PM, said:

I have not ever met a more arrogant sounding person in my entire life. Maybe that is because I don't know many people, but I'm simply speaking from my own perspective.

Oh, I started out in the NIC way more arrogant than that.

Then I got worse.

Pineapple, on Oct 19 2006, 08:34 AM, said:

Anyone else don't like what they see, PM cxwq and have me taken off staff.

You know Piney, nobody has ever taken you up on that offer. My PM box is overflowing with people whinging about selling them crap or posting their stuff or giving them custom avatars and titles but nothing about removing the Piney.

Which pretty much sucks because I'd so love laughing in their face.

[InkJet]

I don't know, it was just another idea for a clip. I figured the mechanism for pushing that clip up after each shot might be easier than making a breech open and close with a burst of air. But if you can do that, my hat goes off to you sir.