73 replies to this topic

[NerfManiac]

132,000 miles!!! Holy shit! Are thats pretty good for a pontiac... or any American car.

[Spoon]

Meh, I agree that modern (thats the key word) American cars really aren't given enough credit. My Pontiac is at 97k and runs great, except for the fact that my passenger front windows is off the track, and my LCD clock only displays in Klingon. Japanese cars are just so....japanese......Small and efficient, how boring.

[merlinski]

Meh, I agree that modern (thats the key word) American cars really aren't given enough credit. My Pontiac is at 97k and runs great, except for the fact that my passenger front windows is off the track, and my LCD clock only displays in Klingon. Japanese cars are just so....japanese......Small and efficient, how boring.

I agree completely that some are boring. I think that nowadays, its more of a question of brand. Hondas will always last forever and get good mileage, but even the new Accord is relatively boring. My dad just bought a Mazda 6s, and let me tell you, that is one hell of a fun car to drive. Same goes for american cars. The Geos are small and efficient and boring, while the Cadillacs are luxurious and fast (look at the XLR). However, when you look at 80's and early 90's, the japanese cars were almost universally better made than the American cars, which were still shell-shocked by emissions standards.

[cxwq]

Every few years someone tells me that American cars have finally caught up to Japanese cars. With a few notable exceptions - usually high end offerings - they're always wrong. Now, unless you're talking about 'American' cars that are really made in whole or part outside of the country, I just don't buy it, literally or figuratively.

Now, I'm not a foreign car elitist or anything, most european cars are definitely second-tier and not all Japanese cars are created equally. That said, I defy anyone to demonstrate a manufacturer who can make an entire line with reliability that compares favorably to Toyota or Honda.

My '70 Beetle ran about 300k miles before it gave up the ghost completely but these days I doubt anything non-Japanese could do the same. My '93 Civic VX hatchback ran 110k miles with only scheduled maintenance performed. Nothing but oil, tires, brakes, plugs, and a timing belt. After 7 years and all those miles, it was still averaging over 40 mpg. I hated trading that car in but it just wasn't big enough for the family.

These reliability scores are computed from the '88-'98 Consumer Reports failure rankings. Looks interesting.

[Ash]

In reply to Cx,

I tend to think that Chrystler has a whole line of reliable cars... I have never had a problem with one and most of my family owns them (well, my parents recently traded their old Chrystler for a Mercury... they are really regretting that one) and they have faired well. My Father had to suffer through owning a Neon for a short spell, but the damn thing lasted him until 220 thousand and then he traded it in when he got his Intrepid, which has been quite good for him so far. My old (yes, Old) caravan, as I said, lasted me 'til 180 or so, and my newer ('94) Plymouth Voyager is at 117 thousand and still running quite strong without any major replacements or anything. Also, being a Car Audio installer, I have the oppurtunity to play around with a lot of cars that come in. I'd say that Chrystler hangs in there quite well, Chevy is a 50 50 deal, Ford sucks, and while I know Saturn is owned by GM these days, they tend to just last until you drive them completely into the ground.

Toyota seems to be the most durable foreign car, and Hyundai suprisingly lasts quite well also. I'm not very impressed with Nissan, Mazda, or Honda, either. Most Japanese cars have a tendency to fall apart everywhere but the engine/transmission area; Electronics, interior, etc. With European cars, Volkswagon and Audi seem to hold up well (well, not the '80s Audis, but most of the rest of them). Volvo seems to be 50 50...

Ok, I guess I'm done.

[mr box]

My friend Ben just finished rebuilding a 64 beetle...the odometer reads 39k, but we bet that it's rolled over at least twice (5 digits).

And Ash is right, a Honda's engine will last a long time but everything else does fall apart. I've helped replace stuff like window shades, tail lights, and gaskets in Ben's mom's 89 accord...and the little crap gets to you, like a clock that's fooked and interior lights that don't work...

[Spoon]

Bourgeois I may be, but I can't help wanting a car that shatters windows when I start it up.

Lately my eye has fallen on the soon to be released 2004 Pontiac GTO (www.pontiac.com/gto). I don't care if it falls apart at 80 thousand miles, you just can't argue with a 350 horsepower/365 torque V8. It's also half the price of my other dream car, the Viper.

Meanwhile, back in the cold claustrophobic confines of reality......

[Pineapple]

Lately my eye has fallen on the soon to be released 2004 Pontiac GTO (www.pontiac.com/gto).

...all I can say is...GAAAAH...

It's about time we had a rear drive, V8, true dual exhaust monster again. (I loved the way it sounded). Even if it's an Australian GM car rebadged. I missed out on the Grand Nationals when they were released 10 years ago...I don't want to miss out on this one. [starts praying].

[mr box]

The problem with americans is we have our heads up our asses and want big cars in the same way we want big dicks....Europeans have been making excellent and EFFICIENT cars for years and years...hell, over there, a BMW wagon is like a family car. And they have to make cars small, anyone who's ever been to western Europe knows that parking is horrendous.

[NerfManiac]

I hate American cars only 'cuz I've been in 3 accidents (as a passenger) all involving grandmas driving American cars... I guess it qualifies as a Phobia.

[cxwq]

Lately my eye has fallen on the soon to be released 2004 Pontiac GTO

Sorry to be a downer here... If you're dead set on buying an American muscle car don't bother reading this.


From their press release:

"We had three main priorities for this vehicle right from the outset: power, launch feel, and an exhaust note with lots of character ... Our goal was to come in at a pass-by rate of just under 80 decibels, which is the legal sound limit in some states. But, we knew it couldn't be objectionable. It needed to be a pleasing 80 decibels."

So they're trying really hard to make yet another car that idiots can redline down my street at 3AM to keep me awake but this one will have that spiffy American muscle car sound. You know what I'm talking about, the "I drink gas to keep our economy going" sound.

If there's one thing that ticks me off about American `sports cars' it's the whole macho "more liters!" dick waving that's been going on for decades. So you're impressed by 350hp out of 5.7 liters?

Lancer EVO:
271 HP
273 lb-ft
2 liter
18/26 mpg
3263 lbs

Impreza WRX STi:
300 HP
300 lb-ft
2.5 liter
18/24 mpg
3270 lbs

The GTO runs 0-60 in the "mid-five second range". The EVO and STi are sub-five.

And lest you think efficiency is limited to the 250-300hp poor-man's sports cars, note that Porsche gets 462hp out of a 3.6 liter in their 911 GT2.

Why do American manufacturers do so poorly on power-to-displacement ratios? I'm open to suggestions but my opinion is that they simply don't have to improve. They've successfully perpetuated the myth that liters and horsepower are more important than speed.

[merlinski]

Look at the Dodge Neon SRT-4. Just about as fast and powerful as the Japanese models, 2 liter engine, 100% american.

[Pineapple]

Why do American manufacturers do so poorly on power-to-displacement ratios? I'm open to suggestions but my opinion is that they simply don't have to improve. They've successfully perpetuated the myth that liters and horsepower are more important than speed.

My only rebuttal to that would be that the "low displacement high horse/ torque" engined cars are all turbocharged. The turbocharger is the equalizer to bring the small displacement cars up in the territory where V8's once ruled; that is, 1/4 mile acceleration.
I had in my posession for a short time a Chrysler LeBaron Turbo (don't ask, it was a donated car that I took care of before we donated it right back out), and that puppy could kick, even with an anemic 4 cyl. boosted by the "hairdryer" (try accelerating in 2nd gear so the turbo can spool up...WOW!). But the basic maintenance was horrendous, with oil changes, the dreaded "delay before turning off" box, temperature monitoring (especially in warm HI.), and (in this instance) a lot more than normal PM. Turbo cars are very high maintenance cars, even domestic ones; just ask any Grand National/ GNX owner.
I guess the market for cars such as the EVO and the WRX are for fast and furious gearheads who may inevitably tinker and fool with their cars and therefore keep them going, or drive them straight into the ground (or another car in traffic). About the 3am thing, I'm too old to be out that late, unless I wake up at that time to go fishing. But the cars I used to hear in Honolulu @ 3am lately sounded like berserk lawnmowers (turbo'd/ NOS'd imports.)

The likelihood of myself getting a GTO is pretty slim (therefore the prayers), but I sure miss the sound of musclecars, 60's musclecars, that struck a sentimental chord in my heart. If I really want that rumble, I guess I can go put some Flowmasters on my F-150, but it just wouldn't be the same, huh?

Box, I don't want a big car nor a big dick. I have enough big vehicles for the reason that they are needed for my work, and about my anatomy, well, it works just fine as it is. No insecurites here. [back to topic]


Hey JT, sorry to shaft you, but this topic got interesting. Hope you passed your license test.

[Ash]

The Evo is fast because it weighs next to nothing. Also, the evo is near impossible to do any major upgrades to, thus stunting it's racing potential.

The dodge SRT-4 has already been modded up to 900 HP. That's right, 900. Larger cars with larger engines generally are much heavier cars, hence the need for the larger engines... blahr.

Also, in a street race, a stock Pontiac Trans Am (with the force Ram Air, I forget the name of the engine... LS2 maybe?) will absolutely own an Evo. A Trans-am really is not all that fast. I may also add that a Z06 is able to own most other american sports cars (just about equals the Viper... well, the bottom of the line Viper) as well as any japanese sports cars and most european sports cars (less Ferrari, Lamborgini [sp?] etc.). I would also like to add that the Dodge SRT-7 (I think that's the model) which is a friggin pickup truck does 0-60 in under 5, just like your wonderful WRX and Evo. In fact, in a street race, it owns the Evo and WRX.

The SRT-4 and the viper both leave tons of room for modification and improvement. Most japanese sports cars can be modified and tweaked, but will never have the same max potential as an american sports car unless one is to completely replace the engine.

I want to state as my closing argument that I really do not like cars (I drive a damn Minivan for god's sake) but I work around them and listen to people talk about them all damn day; Hence, I eventually get into talking about them due to lack of options.

[cxwq]

Larger cars with larger engines generally are much heavier cars, hence the need for the larger engines... blahr.

Yeah, that's more or less my point. Big displacement makes for heavy engine and heavy car which necessitates big displacement. Kind of puts the cart before the horse unless your application requires the ability to move massive weight - essentially work trucks.

Isn't Dodge owned by Daimler Group these days?

Their website reports that the SRT-4 has a 2.4 liter engine delivering 215 hp and 0-60 in "under six seconds".

Modifying anything from 215hp stock to 900hp is well outside the range of this discussion. Dodge didn't build an oversized 215hp plant so that a tiny fraction of their customers could bore the shit out of it and make a 900hp time bomb.

For further German/American vs. Japanese comparison, the Viper gets 500 hp out of an astounding 8.3 liters. Yet another American triumph of size over technology.

[merlinski]

I would also like to add that the Dodge SRT-7 (I think that's the model) which is a friggin pickup truck does 0-60 in under 5, just like your wonderful WRX and Evo. In fact, in a street race, it owns the Evo and WRX.

Its the SRT-10 Ram. The number after "SRT" represent the number of cylinders in the engine. The V10 that is in the ram is the same V10 that is in the SRT-10 Viper. It has an output of around 500 hp, 500 ft/lbs of torque, and is 505 cubic inches. Thats not even the fastest truck. John Lingenfelter (famous for his 1.9 second 0-60 corvette) modified a GMC Sonoma pickup to do 0-60 in 2.8 seconds. The thing did a fucking wheelie.

The SRT-4 and the viper both leave tons of room for modification and improvement. Most japanese sports cars can be modified and tweaked, but will never have the same max potential as an american sports car unless one is to completely replace the engine.

Five words - Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline GTR
There have been Supras that have been tuned to an output of 1200 horsepower. The Skyline is probably the best car to modify ever created, its become a legend to most tuners.

Anyone who wants an "100% American" car these days is gonna have to look pretty damn hard. Unless you consider Canadian and Mexican to be American, that is.

Isn't Dodge owned by Daimler Group these days?

I consider a car that comes out of Detroit to be American, 100% American wouldn't be true of the components, but I consider Dodge to be an American brand. It was bought by Daimler-Chrysler, but it began as an american company and the cars are still assembled here (if not completely manufactured here).

For further German/American vs. Japanese comparison, the Viper gets 500 hp out of an astounding 8.3 liters. Yet another American triumph of size over technology.

The new GM engine gets 500 out of 6.8. Does this mean that there is not technology? Hell no, this thing stretches the boundaries of variable valve timing and uses a GM-only technology called Displacement-on-demand, which deactivates 4 or 8 cylinders (8 only in the 16-cylinder version) depending on engine load. So when you're not really using it, you only have a 3.4 liter engine. There is also no such thing as a 500 hp stock Japanese car.

German is a whole new ball game completely. The germans are probably the absolute best in the world (with the occasional exception of the italians) at developing new technologies. Audi/VW is probably the biggets collection of automotive geniuses ever assembled in one company. They've developed an entirely new engine arrangement (W and VR) which has huge engineering improvements that completely erase some problems found in V engines. I've looked at the details myself, that engine is amazing. They've also developed a continually variable transmission, which doesn't have gears at all. The size of its wheels can be adjusted so that there are an infinite number of gear settings. This is, needless to say, a huge advance in transmission technology. They're also working on a lagless manumatic transmission, where pushing a shifter up instantly switches gears without using a clutch and without waiting for the transmission to shift itself. Not to mention that Audi placed 1-2-3 at the 24 hours of Le-mans.

German cars set standards of luxury and comfort that American or Japanese cars could never (and have never) lived up to. The only exception is the Cadillac Sixteen (if they ever actually make it). They also have outputs in the neighborhood of 400-500 horsepower from engines around 4 liters, something the japanese could never do with a stock car.

[cxwq]

German cars ... also have outputs in the neighborhood of 400-500 horsepower from engines around 4 liters, something the japanese could never do with a stock car.

Perhaps if you re-phrased that to ``have never done''...

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that a manufacturer (let alone an entire country) that can make a stock 300 hp 2.5 liter can't make a 400-500 hp 4 liter.

[Spoon]

>stands up, raises his finger in the air, opens his mouth to speak, realizes he knows absolutely nothing about this subject, closes his mouth, sits back down<



Lets talk about computer hardware, heh.

[merlinski]

I've got to question the true motivations of anyone who tries too hard to maintain some artificial division between "American" cars and "foreign" cars.

Does anyone here have any idea how many "foreign" auto makers maintain offices in Detroit? For example, Honda maintains R&D offices all over the U.S., including one RIGHT IN THE FRIKKIN HEART OF DETROIT. If that doesn't make a car "come out of Detroit", I don't know what does.

How about how many of these "foreign" auto makers operate manufacturing and assembly facilities in the U.S.? Many of the Hondas you see everyday are manufactured and assembled right here in the U.S. of A.

On the other hand, so-called "American" cars aren't just being manufactured in Canada and Mexico, they are FULLY ASSEMBLED there and brought back across the border. Yes, this includes Dodge and all the major GM car makers! And they do it because it's cheaper there, of course.

In a nutshell, that's what the whole hoopla over globalization is about.

I'll admit that its hard to differentiate between companies based on geographical location, but the differences are clear enough when you look at history and idealogy. You can't say "every car company is equally global". Honda, Toyota, Nissan (initially Datsun), Subaru, Mitsubishi, those are all companies that were started in Japan and follow the Japanese idealogy of smaller-displacement engines and fairly basic and functional (but not that comfortable) interiors. GM, Ford, and Dodge are all brands that began in America and follow the American automotive idealogy of keeping it simple. They also got diddled in terms of sales by the Japanese in the 1980s because of the emissions standards, but are recovering. VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche are German companies that are known for exceptional engineering (much better than Japanese or American) and 2 distinct types of cars - the small, extremely efficient ones (moreso than even japanese cars), and the powerful, luxurious ones that create the standards the rest of the world doesn't really live up to.

The divisions are extremely clear when you look at the actual companies.

By the way, I think it was cxwq who stated that Japanese technology is why their cars are better than American cars. That was really only true for the 1980s and early 1990s when they were the first to create fuel-efficient and low-emissions vehicles. They really don't do anything better than the Americans anymore, they just offer simple 4 or 6 cylinder engines in fairly cheap cars. The WRX and Evo aren't the stereotypical japanese car. They are also only fast because they have turbos and good exhaust and intakes, not because the engineering of the engines is very good. In fact, the most popular Japanese car to modify is the Skyline, and that's because its engine is overwhelmingly simple - a straight 6. It can take a beating as a result, so people like to do extreme things to it.

I was probablyl wrong about their ability to create a powerful engine. I'm sure that a Japanese manufacturer could make such an engine, but it doesn't fit into their philosophy so I don't think they will anytime soon.

[merlinski]

I'll admit that its hard to differentiate between companies based on geographical location, but the differences are clear enough when you look at history and idealogy.

<< SNIP >>

Fine, dodge the issue as long as you like, but you're still not getting yourself off the hook with your initial "100% American" comment.

If you want to argue differences in technology, go that route. But you don't know as much about car companies and their ideologies as you pretend to, because Chrysler (Dodge's parent company) and Mitsubishi have been collaborating for years, and both Honda and Toyota have collaborated with GM. Somehow I highly doubt you would consider Mitsubishi, Honda, or Toyota to be "American" companies.

I'm not dodging the issue, I'm admitting that if you look at where companies have offices or plants, then no company really has a true nationality.

Trust me, I know a great deal about car companies and their idealogies. I know who collaborates with who, but I also know that the collaboration usually doesn't result in entirely new marketing directions for the companies. The collaboration is technical, and usually comes about because both companies want a technology that will be mutually applicable. They also only collaborate on certain products because there is a relatively small overlap in terms of model similarity.

[Ash]

Yeah, well, Chrystler OWNS Mitsubishi, Julie.

We are not differentiating between American and Japanese trying to seperate where they were built or where they were developed, We are simply differentiating because "American" compaines all hold certain similarities to eachother as do "Japanese" and "German" auto producers. If You want to get into the immature "well nothing is really made anywhere" argument, I don't think you are going to get too much of a reaction here because no one cares where the damn thing was actually built... I might also add that the companies who established them (ie a Japanese company or an American company) still has all the revenues from whatever particular car company essentially going to their home office which is normally in their home country. However, sure you win, American cars are not made here, Japanese cars aren't made there.

To add to your list - ALL toyotas and Lexus are assembled in the us to save on import and export costs.

And this one is to Cx - Ok, so the base model dodge gets 500hp, but a Henessy (sp?) viper is a twin turbo 800hp. I might add that Henessy also did a mod on the SRT Ram engine (essentially because it is the same) and got somewhere around 800 out of it. I don't remember who said "it's not even the fastest pickup truck", if you are counting modifications done in the after market, sure it isn't but it IS the fastest stock truck ever made. So there. The Viper has been modified to go well over 1000 hp. Also, the SRT - 4 that was modded to get 900 hp was done by a professional aftermarket company and is by no means a "ticking time bomb", but yeah, it does take way too much effort, I'll give you that. And it was 900 at the crank, not at the wheel. It's slightly under 800 at the actual wheel. Oh, And yeah, it is Daihmler Chryslter now, but I still consider the Chrystler corp. American by distinction of product since it is still the same developers. He he, Daihmler Chrystler has a luxury vehicle out that resembles an older mercedes that has a 600hp engine under the hood (factory). Whacky assholes.

To sum it up, Dodge are full of psychopathic american meatheads, GM seems to be toned down in a way, Ford sucks and always will, and no cars are made where the company originated. That work?

[cxwq]

Some factoids regarding auto market globalization... take em how you like:

DaimlerChrysler owns 37% of Mitsubishi and 10% of Hyundai. Their 14% global market share goes to Germany. Not much of it goes to their investors as their stock has tanked over the last 4 years since Daimler picked up Chrysler for $36b.

The new Chrysler Crossfire contains 39% Mercedes parts.

Since the merger, Chrysler has improved to 141 defects per 100 vehicles (JD Power), putting them in 4th place - Toyota leads with 107. Chrysler's warranty expenses dropped by 20% in 2002.

By using equipment Daimler developed to manufacture the $56k E-Class wagon, Chrysler was able to make the (relatively similar as far as equipment goes) Dodge Magnum and will sell it for $34k.

The other major multinationals:

GM owns Chevrolet, Cadillac, Opel, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Vauxhall, Saab, Holden, and controls but doesn't own a majority of Isuzu, Suzuki, Daewoo, and Subaru. GM has 22.4% of the global market.

Ford owns Lincoln, Mercury, SVT, Volvo, Landrover, Aston-Martin, and Jaguar, and has a major stake in Mazda. Ford has 12.8% of the global market.

Toyota owns Daihatsu and has 10.1% of the global market.

Volkswagen owns Audi, SEAT, Skoda, Lamborghini, Bentley, Rolls Royce, and Bugatti. Volkswagen has 8.2% of the global market.

This looks to be the decade of platform sharing. The new Dodge Neon will be based on the Mitsubishi Lancer. The next Ford Focus and Mazda Protege will share their platform. Suzuki will develop GM's next economy car line.

Even companies that aren't owned by the same multinational are sharing platforms as in the Chevrolet Prizm and Toyota Corolla.

<...end factoids...>

These things have a lot to do with changing design values. The existing groups of developers are being tossed assignments based on their strengths, not the market to which the vehicle is headed or the name it will bear. I think the era in which you could characterize a manufacturer by referring to a country will be ending shortly if it hasn't already.

[merlinski]

I think that the differences are still there, even if its not quite as evident in terms of small-car production.

The companies that make the best large SUV's and pickup trucks - GM, Dodge, Ford
The companies that make the best smaller turbo-diesels or top-of-the-line luxury - VW, BMW, Mercedes
The companies that make almost exclusively small cars or suvs - Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda

cxwq, SVT is the in-house performance tuning division of Ford. It is not its own brand, and has no real models. It just modifies existing Fords and then sticks "SVT" next to the model name. The "Ford SVT Mustang" or "Ford SVT Focus" are not made by SVT, just tuned by them.

Julie - your example works against your argument. The two men beat a Chinese man to death because they thought he was Japanese. They associated Japanese with losing their jobs because the companies that dominated the marketplace were accepted as "Japanese". The men didn't care where 90% of Honda's production facilities were, they cared because Honda was Japanese, Honda caused them to lose their jobs. And the smiling Lisa avatar doesn't really go well with the "fucking meathead" statement.

[cxwq]

Re SVT: Look what you get from reading PR crap sent to investors! I had no idea who they were, thanks for the info.

Re Japanese vs. American: Could be wrong but I think the two men beat that guy to death because they didn't realize that so called "Japanese" companies employ an ass-load of US citizens. The whole 'buy American' furor has created ethnic hostilities because people don't understand the nature of the global economy or where the jobs really are. If everyone knew that US firms ship tons of jobs out and foreign firms bring tons of jobs here, automobiles might be less fertile ground for stupid nationalistic propaganda.

Lets compare this to computers so Spoon can rejoin us... In the tech sector, lots of support line jobs are going to India. People I talk to who've been 'downsized' aren't ticked off at India or Indian people, they're ticked off at the company that laid them off and sent their jobs elsewhere because they found a whole country full of educated (if you happen to be upper caste, I suppose) people who will work for a fraction of what it costs to live in the US. They're informed enough to know that a lot of the uglier aspects of the global economy lie closer to home than most of us would like to believe.

Anyway, I'd say that people should care who profited from their car purchase, who designed the car, who made the parts, and who assembled them. Unfortunately, being an informed consumer can be very difficult in this market.

[Spoon]

Oh God, don't EVEN get me started on Dell's India tech support.....>shudders<