15 replies to this topic

[The Infinite Shindig]

Don't Take Away My Crossbow, Mommy!

I have been putting this article off for days now. Once again, as to the "why" of this I could yank out a multi-colored bar graph and pie chart showing the effects of "laziness", "nocturnal sleeping habits", and "star crunchies" but I'm sure none of you care. Now before I get into the lovely marbled meat of this article, I'd like to encourage all of you (even you Billy) to post your thoughts on this article (as well as the previous one) in the Living End forum. There has been some really insightful discussion in there as of late, much to my surprise, as well as in the Mojo Rising forums. I didn't plan to write a follow-up article, but due to the great responses I got as well as a better sense for how serious this issue is for us Nerfers, I had to do it. One last thing, if you havn't done so already, stop reading this RIGHT NOW and read my previous article, as well as Vacc's last two articles in Mojo Rising. You'll need to be familiar with the concepts as we go. Now then, on to the wet t-shirt contest...

Long range Nerf guns have always been a very tempting and elusive thing for Nerf warriors. The ability to strike a target before he can strike you is the basis for everything we do. Therefore it is no surprise that distance (with accuracy trailing a distant second I should add) has always been our number one goal in Nerf guns. It is the unfortunate truth however, that this goal has gotten progressively more difficult to achieve now that Nerf is moving quickly into a rapid fire focused product line. In addition to this new shift in paradigm, we have seen long range Nerf guns promote the number one enemy to a Nerf warrior, the stand-off. It's a familiar scene, two warriors suddenly see each other, and rather than attack or retreat they freeze, each staying just outside the other man's range. This lasts for an eternity sometimes, until a third party either gets one of them too move, or one warrior gets bored and retreats. Is this fun? No. I've never met anyone who actually enjoyed stand-off wars. Some of you might be curious, why do long range weapons promote this behavior and not other Nerf guns? Well truth be told stand-offs happen no matter what guns the warriors are carrying, however they happen especially frequently when long range guns are in use. Here's why: Long range Nerf guns are ALWAYS single shot. When you fire, you then have to reload which takes some time. They are also usually very accurate compared to other Nerf guns. Now any idiot can hit just about any person sized target within 30-40 feet, especially with an accurate gun that can shoot twice that distance. Now the enemy knows this, and the enemy also knows that THEIR gun has similar characteristics. What you wind up with is a classic collective action problem. Both enemies, knowing full well the capabilities and disadvantages of their guns, do not want to do anything to endanger themselves. If one of them was to shoot and miss, they would have no chance of reloading in time before the other shot them. Therefore following the path of least risk, neither of them will shoot and will instead wait for the OTHER person to shoot, so they can get an easy kill. Since both of them follow this same path, we have a stand-off. Now what would happen when you have a shorter range weapon with several shots? First off, the closer you are to an opponent the less likely you are to have a stand-off. With close range weapons, you're usually within 30 feet and anything goes. Because the guns have several shots, or are even full auto, you have more than one chance go hit someone before you have to reload. Therefore you're going to be more willing to risk missing since you know you've got backup shots. Therefore you will shoot more often, get closer, and generally have a hell of a lot more fun.

I know that may have been laborious, but it is important to lay out the basic behavior that these two types of Nerf guns promote. öMy God in Heaven I'm watching "A Makeover Story" on TLC- Now that we've established the fact that long range Nerf guns contribute greatly to stand-offs, what can be done to remedy the situation? In my previous article I implored all of you to lay down your super modified long range guns, in the hopes that maybe a portion of you actually would. Should long range guns be unused and/or banned from wars outright? Certainly not, they DO have their uses, as we'll discuss later. The problem is not in their existence, but in both their overuse and the faulty manner in which they are employed.

I believe that my previous article articulated the problems of long range weapon overuse well enough. Basically, long range Nerf guns add variety and tactical options in a Nerf war when used sparingly (say one guy in 4 or 5 has a long range gun), but when EVERYONE or even half of the people playing have them, things get very unbalanced and slow. A more complicated and difficult to solve problem is the manner in which long range Nerf guns are currently used in Nerf wars. Most Nerf war tactics today are taken from special forces or counter-terrorist tactics, including long range "losing" guns. To even draw the analogy between "real life" guns and tactics and Nerf is erroneous and stupid. Even the best modded Nerf gun cannot accurately hit a moving target very reliably at more than 40-50 feet. Therefore when people try to use Nerf guns in a real life manner, it just doesn't work. What we need is to wipe the slate totally clean, and come up with a whole new foundation for Nerf tactics. I will attempt to begin laying this foundation in this article, based on my observations from 8 years Nerfing.

Now that we know how long range guns currently affect Nerf wars, we must devise a new system of treating long and short range weaponry in our tactics. We have to get off this counter-strike Navy Seal Nerf mentality and come up with a tactical system unique to Nerf, since Nerf is obviously a unique sport. In determining how best to do this, I decided to start from the weapons. Rather than think of tactics in terms of positions (which in my opinion are too static and inflexible for a fast paced Nerf war), we must think from the weapons up, since THEY are what determines (or should determine) a players' fighting style. All of these observations are based on what actually happens in most wars I've been in. Any vet whose seen a fair share of fighting will agree with me on these issues. Those who disagree, either you haven't been in enough large (more than 8 people) Nerf wars, or your friends play much differently than everyone else I've seen. Here are my concrete observations about the effects of certain kinds of Nerf guns in a Nerf war:

Long Range Guns (Crossbow, SM 5000, BBB etc): Contrary to popular belief, these guns are not used like real losers use theirs. Rather than pick people off from a distance while being hidden, these guns serve to keep the enemy at bay. Just like in a stand-off, when someone knows the capability of the long range gun a player is holding, they will NOT cross into their sphere of accuracy. In real life Nerf wars, no enemy will get close to a person with a Crossbow if they can help it. Long range guns are the perfect "holding" tools. They in effect act like long range cattle prods, holding the enemy at bay at a distance just outside the guns' range.

Close Range Rapid Fire Guns (Powerclip, Wildfire, Blast Fire, Roto-Track etc): The holder of a rapid fire gun is not only the most likely to shoot at a target, but is also the most likely to rush and get close. Having the knowledge that you have multiple shots greatly increases the risks you're willing to take, especially when you are limited by range. These are the guns that SHOULD be making the majority of the kills in a Nerf war. The holder of rapid fire guns should ALWAYS be highly mobile, always on the move, and they should ALWAYS move in small packs if possible. The ability to immediately surround an enemy while attacking from all sides with multiple shots creates a deadly crossfire that no enemy can survive.

Medium Range Medium Rate of Fire Guns (LocknLoad, SM 3000, Arrowstorm): These weapons have multiple functions in real live Nerf wars. Sometimes they hold opponents at bay like a long range weapon does, depending on the specific gun, and other times they act just like their rapid fire cousins. Much of this depends on the player holding the gun, and the rest depends on what the specific gun is, since this is a very broadly defined field. A medium range gun should be used to either back up the rushing rapid fire guns, a "second wave" if you will, OR they should be used for flanking the enemy. By flanking the enemy these can hold the enemy at bay just long enough for the rapid fires to run in and finish them off, while the mediums take out the stragglers.

Now that we've established a concrete base of real life effects of each of these kinds of Nerf guns, we can use these building blocks to construct a large number of strategies. I make specific tactics for Nerf, such as a complicated room entry procedure or a special maneuver outdoors is pretty ludicrous. Not only are Nerf wars far too fast moving and variable for concrete tactics to work, but every complicated plan tends to go wrong. Therefore we won't be created tactics, from now on we're creating strategies. Basic ideas to implement in a Nerf war that are flexible and effective. I will only be able to give a couple examples, it'll be up to you guys to think of others. But I IMPLORE you, before you post on the forums with a new strategy, TEST IT OUT in a real live Nerf war! That's the only way you'll every find out if it works or not. Don't waste our time with untested tactics. Now then, here are some suggestions just to get you started. Remember KISC: Keep It Simple Chodes.

Example 1: Five Man Team Hold and Destroy Maneuver

To get a better idea of this, check out the image to the right. There is an enemy, alone or a small to medium group of them (alone wouldn't be worth the trouble most likely). As soon as the 5 man team confronts the enemy the enemy will freeze into a stand-off (1), immediately the two long range gun carriers flank off to either side just out of range, stopping at the rear left and right corners (from the perspective of the team). They then hold the enemy group from retreating (2L). If some enemies begin to try to retreat, the long range men move further towards the rear center, blocking them (3L). While this is going on, the two medium range gun holders flank off to the immediate sides of the enemy, again holding them and blocking their retreat (2M). By now the enemy is getting antsy and is probably trying to force their way out one side or the other. At this time the remaining rapid fire gunman assaults the enemy squad head on (2R). Simultaneously the long range and medium range men advance and fire (4), covering the assault team and picking off stragglers from the group. The rapid fire and medium range teams (hopefully still having ammo left) then covers the long range team while they reload, and the process begins again, constricting the circle tighter. You could take out a entire enemy team if this is done right. While at first glance this may seem overly complicated, remember that the only requirements are the right number of gun types per team. The rest is just the nature of Nerf war behaviors. This can be easily adapted to fit any terrain, and also accounts for a large variety in enemy composition. You could even assault a uncovered base using this tactic. I will give one more example.

Example 2: Four Man Team Base Assault

Once again, for a better idea of this strategy, see the image. Base assaults can be easily fended off by a organized enemy, therefore the way to assault a base is to make them disorganized. By confusing them, by giving them too many targets to shoot at, and above all by moving swiftly enough that they can't get a chance to survey the situation and respond. Here are the parameters of this example: A four man team wants to assault a semi-circle shaped open back base being held by three defenders. Because this is a base assault, the team members are carrying 3 rapid fire weapons and one long range weapon. The defenders are armed with a mix of close and long range weapons. Coming up on the front of the base, the team stays just out of the long range gunners sphere of accuracy (1). Immediately the long range gunner swings around to the rear of the base (the open part) and stays just outside the enemies sphere or accuracy, as well as his own (2L). As he is moving two of the rapid fire guys move to either side of the rear of the base, again just out of range. The remaining man remains at the front of the base (2R). If the base defenders begin to get distracted by the movements behind them, the person in front should advance enough to get their attention, then slowly retreat to his previous position. At this time the long range man should begin firing on the base. Although the base is outside his sphere of accuracy, it should still be inside his maximum range. The shots serve only to distract and confuse the enemy. When the long range man starts shooting, more than likely one or more of the defenders will exit and go for him (1E). Once the enemy is about halfway to him (and probably stops in a stand-off), the two flanking rapid fire guys should swoop in on opposite sides (aided by the long range man) and eliminate the enemy (3R). If another enemy gets out, repeat the procedure. Now that the enemy is outnumbered by 2 to 1, the long range man should slowly advance, while the flanking rapid fire men should move more and more to the sides while slowly advancing, the front man should advance very slowly too (4). Then the long range man should stop while the flanking rapid fire men charge the base, simultaneously the front man should QUICKLY charge the base, firing into the front (5). If done fast enough, the enemy won't have enough time to hit more than one or two people. This can be adapted for any shape base, even for a building with multiple doorways (plant the long range guy at one entrance, assault from the other simultaneously). It can also be revised for a different number or composition of friendlies and enemies.

Now that I have shown you the building blocks with which to change the face of Nerf tactics, it is up to you to run with them and improve them. While this article may of focused on tactics quite a bit, remember that my original point was that we need to change the methods with which we use long range (and indeed all types) Nerf guns. If long range weapons are too stay, they MUST be used according to their actual effects in a real live Nerf war. Stand-off wars are the enemy, and to cure it we are going to have to completely change our way of thinking about Nerf wars. Nerf wars should be fun, Nerf wars should be action packed, Nerf wars should be exciting. These strategies are merely tools to help promote and facilitate this kind of play. Lets all put the "ASSKICKING" back in Nerf wars!

Spoon

[puggy]

I agree that long range guns should be allowed in nerf wars. But some people (like my brother for example) will use them in close range combat. This gives them an advantage and a disadvantage. The advantage to them is that if you get shot, it will cause you a great amount of pain. But most of the time, they will only get one shot. So if they miss you will be ready with your PC. Most long range weapons are banned from wars because people will use them in close range combat. I wouldn't go to a war knowing that titans or sm5000's are allowed. But like you said, you need them for stand-offs. I think titan's and other long range weapons should be allowed in wars. But they shouldn't be missused. You should be within 100 ft. of a target to use a titan. So not to inflict horrible pain. Personally, I love long range guns. And if I ever will be able to go to large war, I would want to take my titan with me.

[Death]

As always, Spoon gives us pure gold.

When I went out to Armageddon, last year, I felt kind of naked out on the field. Not because I had removed my shirt-- both to combat the heat and to show off my manly musculature and god-like handsomeness-- but rather, I felt naked because I didn't have my Crossbow.

And that nudity was a good feeling.

I only brought three guns with me on my trip to California: two Nitefinders and a Manta Ray. Of these weapons, the only one I'd had any experience with was the Manta Ray. Over here on the East Coast, our predilection for Megas has pretty much killed our use of fine secondaries like the NF.

It was certainly different, and much more challenging, to be without a long-range weapon. I found myself rushing in and taking risks I would normally never take, solely for the purpose of closing the distance between my opponent and my barrels. When I paired off with a teammate, I tried to find someone to complement my newly adopted style-- since I was pulling Single-Shots akimbo, I paired with either a Long Ranger to provide them with better defense, or a Rapid Fire weaponeer to scout for their offense.

While my gameplay and my aim may have been slightly off, that day, I can say with full confidence that it was one of the most fun Nerf Wars I have had in my nigh-on fifteen years of playing with foam weaponry. And all it required was for me to willingly give up my long-range arsenal for more personal weaponry.

[Sponge Nerfer]

This is a very good and very insightful article but as far as I see, to avoid stand-offs and all the anoying disatvantages of a long ranged gun, simply carry a sidearm. In this way if you miss with your first shot from your main gun you can still shoot them with your second not alowing them to straight out shoot you while you have no form of defence. I must say, however that in most wars that I have been in, both sides have weilded a huge range of nerf guns and so good stratagies are formed like having the full-auto or several shot guns in front with the longer range single shot guns in the back. Full auto brutes clear out the main brunt of another force and long range back them up, so there is a balance, I defenitly think that a war with all long ranged wepons would really suck but a war with all close range multi-shot wepons would be just as bad. For a good nerf war I think that there has to be a good balance in the kind of guns being used in order to have the most fun. The trouble is, from what I have seen, people really are big on guns like the x-bow and the bbb, both fine guns but they are by no means the greatest wepons out their. People get the idea that these kinds of guns are best and so you get many boring stand-off wars and guns that hurt like hell when you get shot by them. When I go to a war I usualy bring a wide range of guns and will use whichever my team asks of me or which would be the most fun to use at the time. So the topic you brought up is very interusting and I think that in order have better wars, we need people to get off the long-range addiction and realize that there are other guns around.

-sponge

[NOT Ninja Loser]

Well a eat shit.r is long range weapon and it is allowed to be close to ur oppenet and shoot because it is their falt for not moving and usally the eat shit.rs i know like to hide and suprise attack.

But then again, when i got shot in the face with a crossbow from 5 feet away, it really hurt.

[NerfMonkey]

No. Don't post because you have never been involved in a "real" Nerf war.
"Sn¡pers" do not exist in the "real" Nerf wars, I don't know about yours but until you have been to one of these "real" wars, don't post about them.

Forgive me for being so blunt.

[badger]

NerfMonkey, I sent him a PM concerning this and his rather "high quality" posts, yet he hasn't read it.

Now for a comment related to this topic.

While I agree with alot of things that Shinny mentioned in his article, There are a few things that I would like to point out that I disagree with. For those of you that don't know me, I am purely a collector and, until recently, had never been to a Nerf war. I do, however, have military tactical background experience from my training during my time in the Air Force, as well as having played paintball alot in the 90's. I went to Apoc last weekend and it gave me an idea of strategy for Nerf combat, but it also raises some points that I want to make concerning this article and the changing face of Nerf thanks to new releases in the Nerf toyline. This article was, after all, posted last year.

Well truth be told stand-offs happen no matter what guns the warriors are carrying, however they happen especially frequently when long range guns are in use.

Long range Nerf guns are ALWAYS single shot. When you fire, you then have to reload which takes some time.

This statement just isn't the case anymore thanks to the Longshot. The Longshot is definitely a long range weapon, especially if you modify it. Though each squeeze of the trigger is still only one shot, the reload time is significantly reduced with the introduction of the clip. Now the user can fire off multiple shots, making the chances of a stand-off lower, especially if one of the combatants has the Longshot. The other man in that situation, if he does not wield the LS, will most likely retreat since the LS wielder has a higher ammo capacity. His only chance would be if the user with the LS didn't notice that his clip is empty, but that is a gamble at best.

Close Range Rapid Fire Guns (Powerclip, Wildfire, Blast Fire, Roto-Track etc): The holder of a rapid fire gun is not only the most likely to shoot at a target, but is also the most likely to rush and get close. Having the knowledge that you have multiple shots greatly increases the risks you're willing to take, especially when you are limited by range. These are the guns that SHOULD be making the majority of the kills in a Nerf war.

I noticed that no one was using any rapid fire weapons at all during the war. One person had brought in a RF20, I think it was Duxburian, but he never used it. Rapid fire weapons have an advantage in the fact that they can spray darts over a wider area, increasing your chance of hitting your target, but the reload time is reduced significantly. This problem is usually solved by either having a PC modified to remove the clips or to have in your possession the new Magstrike. I agree that rapid fire users should be getting the majority of the kills, but I haven't seen it in action yet. If I was ever to break into the realm of modifying guns, I would probably use rapid fire style weapons in addition to long range. I am more the type to rush in for the kill when it is possible, but I also like to hang back and pick off people from a distance. When I played paintball, I was more of a support fighter, meaning I backed up my comrades by either spraying an area they are about to rush, or sitting in the rear and picking off potential runners that could be a threat to my rushing teammates. For the most part in any type of combat game I've played, I am the multitasker.

The attempt for all of you to try to put down your long range guns has been trumped by the LS. I know that the Horsemen will be at the next war and I don't think that any of the skirmishes during Apoc resulted in all of the Horsemen being eliminated in a single round. They all had modified Longshots in their possession, except for Joe, who had one when they first appeared, but had to put it down when he had problems with the trigger catch I believe. I agree with Shinny completely in regards to the strategy for how the different types of guns should be used, but I don't see long range weapons leaving the field of play anytime soon. This year's releases play perfectly into my strategies. I would use the LS to pick people off from afar and to cover my teammates and the Magstrike to mow down a group during an ambush.

The Longshot and the Magstrike will, in my opinion, change the way wars are played out. A modified LS gives any Xbow and BBB a run for their money in terms of range and firing capacity.

Edited by badger, 15 August 2006 - 08:35 AM.

[NerfMonkey]

Actually this article was originally written by Spoon in the late '90s or early '00s. I can't see any changes ever being made to it because it's mostly for historical purposes I believe, though it and the other articles contain some very useful information.

Even before the LS came out, breeches, clips and magazines were being used on single-shot guns such as the Crossbow (think of ompa's clip). Another example is the 3B, which has been modded in several ways to allow many shots to be fired in succession because of its unique cocking motion. PissBacon's "PissBow" comes to mind, and more recently Carrtoon's mod using air pressure to ready the next dart with each movement of the gun being cocked. This is a concept that has even been applied to the NF.

So, what I'm saying is basically that the Longshot doesn't deserve as much credit as it gets for "revolutionizing" the Nerf scene, thanks to such mods being done. However I can understand that from a collector's standpoint who doesn't mod and only has stock guns, the LS seems much more revolutionary than to people who participate in wars with modded weapons.

[badger]

Actually this article was originally written by Spoon in the late '90s or early '00s. I can't see any changes ever being made to it because it's mostly for historical purposes I believe, though it and the other articles contain some very useful information.

It is true, Spoon did write the original article. What I meant to say was that I agreed with alot of what Shinny said in the topic. He started the topic, and I'm using his comment as the benchmark for my comment. As for there being no need for any changes, I can't agree with that. The article is here for historical purposes, but that doesn't mean tht it can't be added to, or revised by someone with an outside point of view. If the admins didn't want anyone to challenge or attempt to add additional relative information, they would have not allowed comments

However I can understand that from a collector's standpoint who doesn't mod and only has stock guns, the LS seems much more revolutionary than to people who participate in wars with modded weapons.

You missed the part where I said that I was at a war. I was the cameraman at Apocalypse. I watched the Horsemen arrive and decimate the competition with their modified Longshots. Every round of play, no matter which team you put the Horsemen on, even if we split them up, the winning team had at least one LS user as a survivor. Many of the people at Apoc couldn't wait to get a look at one of them to figure out what they could do to one. They talked about the LS for hours after the Horsemen arrived. There are many LS mods and probably in the last month, about half of the threads in General and Modifications were about the LS. From what I've seen and heard, alot of people see the LS as revolutionary to the scope of the game.

Oh, and just for one last nugget of information, the Longshot has inspired me to actually modify it. I've already bought a second LS to keep for the collection, but the first one haas been modified. Though I don't consider myself a hardcore modifier, you have to admit that it is indeed revolutionary that one gun has turned a puristic collector into an amateur modder.

[The Infinite Shindig]

I have never added anything to the article above. The article in its entirety was written by Spoon and originally found at NerfOnline. Over a year ago, cxwq asked me to post all of Spoon's and Vacc's content from NerfOnline. The secondary title of every article has the original author.

I do have some content posted here from when I contributed to the failed experiment that was NerfEvolved.

[badger]

I have never added anything to the article above. The article in its entirety was written by Spoon and originally found at NerfOnline. Over a year ago, cxwq asked me to post all of Spoon's and Vacc's content from NerfOnline. The secondary title of every article has the original author.

I do have some content posted here from when I contributed to the failed experiment that was NerfEvolved.

My mistake. I wasn't around for NerfOnline, so I had no idea. I had tried to search for the original articles and wasn't able to find them. You just explained why my search was unsuccessful. Thanks for clearing that up.

[the essence of death]

personally me and my friends like to do most things milsim including our paintball team so we usually carry at least one large weapon each and a side arm, i belive that weapons that fire a large projectile like the titan should be used for situations where a unit assults a base and an example rule would be if you hit a base with a titan than everyone inside is dead this however only works for wars where the base is of reasonable size for this rule, as far as long range weapons are concerned the longest ranged weapons we have are my ls (100 ft avg range) and my brothers nf (75 ft avg range) and neither hurts much unless he loads the nf with a good tagger round in which case a glancing blow scrapes with the tip so we arent concerned about those, most of our weapons are mid ranged (most our guns are stock) so it provides for a more level playing ground and we mostly play indoors therefore our ranged guns are used more for the element of the gun shoots fast enough that its hard to dodge and since most of us play paintball frequently we are used to dodging high speed projectiles and just charge and dodge in the standoffs because our weapons are mostly longshots or similar mid ROF platforms

[Prometheus]

personally me and my friends like to do most things milsim including our paintball team so we usually carry at least one large weapon each and a side arm, i belive that weapons that fire a large projectile like the titan should be used for situations where a unit assults a base and an example rule would be if you hit a base with a titan than everyone inside is dead this however only works for wars where the base is of reasonable size for this rule, as far as long range weapons are concerned the longest ranged weapons we have are my ls (100 ft avg range) and my brothers nf (75 ft avg range) and neither hurts much unless he loads the nf with a good tagger round in which case a glancing blow scrapes with the tip so we arent concerned about those, most of our weapons are mid ranged (most our guns are stock) so it provides for a more level playing ground and we mostly play indoors therefore our ranged guns are used more for the element of the gun shoots fast enough that its hard to dodge and since most of us play paintball frequently we are used to dodging high speed projectiles and just charge and dodge in the standoffs because our weapons are mostly longshots or similar mid ROF platforms

That post is six days away from being a year old. Why? continuously, it goes on and on and on. Glad you searched, but why all the dead threads?

[h2player116]

I personally agree that they should be used because this way say someone brings along a friend that doesnt
play nerf often and really isnt that good you can give him that long range gun so that way he doesnt have to get to close for him to still have fun i mean he might still get shot but atleast he wont be getting shot like a madman.

[SHADOW HUNTER ALPHA]

Don't necro threads with poorly-spelled and grammatically erroneous posts.

[xXasskickerXx]

I use a heavily externally and internally modified longshot called the reaper it has great range and rate of fire. So my technique is to sprint extremely quickly in a zigzag pattern at my target then turn at the last second and fire. This technique works with almost any blaster especially something like a titan shotgun.