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A Discussion On The Co2 Method


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#1 Viper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 01:41 PM

I've since made about 5 different guns with co2 as the main propulsion system. I have discovered that although it offers cheap energy for a relatively low price, it has far too many flaws to make it practical for nerf.

1. The co2 guns don't last as long as the compressed air cousins. This is mainly due to co2's concstant deviation in pressure and temperature. According to tippmann pneumatics, co2 can deviate anywhere from 300-2000 psi depending upon relatively small deviations in pressure. This is a huge difference that makes co2 guns like mine worthless in cold weather as well as puts a great deal of stress on the gun. Paintball manufacturers must compensate for this in their design and make a cruder product than would be possible with compressed air or nitrogen.

2.Accuracy Because co2 deviates so much in pressure, its very hard to find any consistency in aiming and the such because its range potential deviates so much. This is why most high end markers use nitrogen, though very expensive nitrogen offers consistency in this area and with a low pressure kit, can offer 300-400 psi in high volume.

There are effective methods for compensating for this like porting and an extra long barrel to provide the needed guidance for the dart, but at the end of the day, you're better off making your standard shrader valve homemades and filling them up before war.
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#2 Talio

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:51 PM

Unless your talking about paintball, no one here is going to be able to answer your questions past boltsniper, and you know it, so why not just PM him?

And another point, what you're doing is dangerous. A C02 nerf rifle is pretty much tatamount to firing a pellet gun at someone, which is considered assult. There have been multiple discussions on this, but let me explain you the biggest danger. Nerf darts don't break. Paintballs do, they bust and pretty much become liquid, and it hurts when you get hit by one. Firing a nerf dart does nothing but force immense ammounts of enery on your body. No one in their right mind would ever actually fire something like that at anyone, because it's sick and your going to blind/kill someone doing it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you not to kill yourself for coming up with an original (fucking HA!) idea that's potentially life threatening, but I can't continue to let someone condone this kind of stuff on the boards without speaking up. Here's why what you're doing is stupid:

1. As stated before, it's dangerous, your going to kill someone.

2. It's annoying because it's become more than clear that no one gives a fuck, but you continue to post about it. The reason no one gives a fuck is because of all the other reasons that are listed on here.

3. It's not a challange at all. You're putting pvc or other barrel type to fire a Nerf dart on Brass eagles, whoopdy-fucking-do. Yakman did it and it was cooler, but no less stupid.

4. You're trying to hock these death machines over the internet. What are you going to do when someone really does get killed with one of these things? Do you think any ammount of safety equipment will stop a steel projectile glued in foam? You know, paintballs are known to crack masks constantly, and like I said, they're made to break. Your firing a solid at someone.

5. It's been done in Jersey and from what I understand, automatically banned, and I'm guessing for all of the reasons on this list.

So in conclussion, I know there are a select few who are really interested in Co2 guns, and I'm not telling you not to make them. I am telling you that I personally can not condone sitting around and watching kids screw with stuff that's going to get them killed. Boltsniper is a completely different situation. He's smarter then you are. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no one cares about this crap, it's dumb and I really wish you'd stop posting an exponential ammount of topics about your hell cannons.

Thanks,

Talio.
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#3 Viper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 06:56 PM

You are ignorant of a blade's(the moddedpaintball guns's) power Talio. When one uses a 24inch barrel it has less power than a modded sm5000. Yes you should use eye protection, that's kind of a duh? thing. The shorter barrel ones had a problem with the weights flying out, but again I was just experimenting with the shorter barrel design and have no plan on using it on people.

So I guess yakman,boltsniper and myself all have ideas that are of no interest to anyone, and are stupid for trying them? I generated a great deal of interest on NHQ having personal offers of over $45 for my first version, which by the way is a simple petg mod with a breach installed and the cosmetic modifications are what interests most. What about boltsniper's combustion gun? Or cxwq's solenoid valve homemade? I suppose its easier to separate us because of some grudge you have against me, but myself and boltsniper did very similiar things. These "hell cannons" as you call them have less power than many homemades or modded nerf guns like the titan,sm5000, and rangshot(RAW).

The only moron is the one who fails to try new things and labels these propulsion systems as "dangerous" simply because of experience with paintball guns and their relative power. My whole post was over the fact that there are better propulsion systems out there anyway and my "exponential" posting of topics only amounts to 4 topics total on NHQ and nerfhaven.

A great deal of paintballs don't bust anyway and the most they leave is a nice welt as long as you stay in the 270FPS-300FPS range. The blade has a max velocity of 250 FPS with paintballs and much less with darts based on experience, so don't think for a second that being shot with one of my guns hurts near as much at the same distance as being shot with a paintball gun at the same distance.

Edited by Viper, 15 March 2005 - 07:02 PM.

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#4 Talio

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:09 PM

Oh shut the fuck up. You're modifying paintball guns to fire Nerf darts, and no one cares, don't come back at me like I don't know what i'm talking about. You're the one that wants to walk around a war with a blade with a 2 foot barrel. Boltsnipers rifle was genios. Your's is a blade with 2 feet of PVC glued to it. No. One. Cares. Saying something got alot of attention at NHQ isn't giving you much of an advantage either.

Honestly, you'll never be aloud to use it in a war because of the how loud it is, and that I'm sticking by it...you're going to kill someone.

Talio.
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#5 FIDO

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:18 PM

I have to agree with Talio on this one. I think modded paintball guns are great for shooting around, but are to dangerous in a war.

When one uses a 24inch barrel it has less power than a modded sm5000.

In lots of wars, the SM5K is banned. (Just to tell you, you don't need a 2' barrel, I would stick with 1'-15")
Back on topic, I agree CO2 is very unreliable on pressure and is picky on temperature. 12 grams are also very annoying and don't take up many shots. Overall, I would never use CO2 unless a demon threatened to poke me with his tridant if I didn't
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#6 Viper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 07:24 PM

This whole topic was started by me stating that co2 isn't a good source of pressure for pneumatics, somehow people think I was supporting it? I don't think its a good source of pressure but I know that it won't kill people.

Edited by Viper, 15 March 2005 - 07:30 PM.

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#7 Hardened Sniper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:05 PM

Nitrogen is a silly concept in paintball anyway. If you are smart you can build a marker to run VERY consistently on co2, even without a regulator. Just give it proper room and orientation to expand. In its gasious form, given you have a tank at least 1/2 full, co2 will hold very tightly around500 psi. If you gun is oiled properly and not full of debris, give it isn't made by the chinese it will fire within +/- 2 feet per second, better than a super gun on nitrogen/HPA with a $100 regualtor. I've done it, am currently doing it, and will do it again. Do yourself a favor and make sure the tank is tilted at least 35 degrees with the pin valve pointing up, this will keep the gasious co2 at the top of the full tank. Next, make a connection hose that is very long to give it proper room to expand in case you get into a rapid fire situation. When co2 flash boils it makes everything cold because it draws energy from its surroundings in the form of heat. Don't use expansion chambers, they create far too much volume and resistance in the system, use stainless steel braided hose.

Dont hate me because I also like paintball ;)

I've always thought a spring-driven clip fed nerf gun would be nuts. If I ever get around to building what I have in mind I wil probably never use it in a game because of the ridiculous firepower that would surley kill the children.
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#8 cxwq

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:07 PM

Dont hate me because I also like paintball ;)

How could I hate a member who reads the forum for 8 months before making their first post!

Welcome to NH.
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#9 Black Wrath

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:15 PM

Dont hate me because I also like paintball  ;)   

How could I hate a member who reads the forum for 8 months before making their first post!

Welcome to NH.

Well now, you don't see that every day!

Welcome to NH! With an attitude like that, you may go places here. Good first post too! I can tell you've actually read the CoC.
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#10 Viper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:17 PM

Maybe you could build one hardened loser and thanks for the information that I've never heard anyone state before. How much would all this stuff cost in the end though? Seriously though, I've read site after site explaining how an expansion chamber would do all of what you said effectively without mentioning any hose. Your explaination is far more elegant than paintball sites I've seen so far and I would love to see one of your sites, you seem to know more than 99% of paintball site hosts. You explained it very well, but visually what would this apparatus look like? Welcome hardensiper!

Edited by Viper, 15 March 2005 - 08:23 PM.

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#11 WEASEL

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:25 PM

Just to start this off I don't want to piss anyone off so this is just my two cents on co2. It might be a good source of power if it was regulated to around 60 psi or so but it would still be kinda cheep. The whole point of nerf it to have limited power in our guns so they have strenghts and weaknesses. If someone used co2 they would have power, rof and maybe accuracy. Bad.

PS-Bolt says he doesn't use his co2 rifle in wars so...ya. I don't know what he will do when (if) he converts his new rifle to co2. I probably wouldn't play with him...not that I do now or anything.
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#12 Viper

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:39 PM

I know, the amount of pumps per shot is a great balancer weasel. It's hard to make accurate and I actually haven't used any in wars. I've only shot at walls and people who have volunteered.
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#13 buddynerfer

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:03 PM

Agree with Tailo on this, using Co2 in nerf guns is pretty dangerous. Also please dont use a blade if you are going to make a nerf gun out of it. They have a tendancy to violently explode if dropped. Use a talon, which is a little better. Or stick to regular homemades. I'd go with the latter.
Hardened loser you are not alone, I play and love paintball too. ;)
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#14 Ragornocks

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 11:41 AM

Okay, simple and clean:

Co2 is horrible. For almost any application, it is erratic, violate, and dirty. Tempature fluctuations, phase changes, and the normally unregulated pressures make a huge mess. The only advantage it has is that is is much cheaper and easier to come by for most people.

Want to spend money and build a decent homemade blaster? Use compressed air. We hooked a 4500psi bottle with 2 regs, a high and a low pressure, up to a Powerclip. Worked flawlessly. Working with simple air is so much easier and less dangerous. Do yourself a favor, buy a small compressed air bottle, a good secondary regulator, and use that. Though Hardened loser does get very good credit for describing how to use Co2 effeciently. You can use normal NPT threaded fittings, drills and taps, and hoses, so long as the fitting and hoses fit the pressures you are going to use.

On an off note, a friend has bunch of stuff for HPA blasters....I'll have to dig it up with him.

Edited by Ragornocks, 19 March 2005 - 11:41 AM.

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hug the fuck out of 'em, philippe!

#15 Viper

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 08:29 PM

That's what I stated earlier ragnorocks. I'd like to learn more about how to make what you're talking about with the PC and all.
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#16 Ragornocks

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Posted 19 March 2005 - 11:51 PM

Well, here's the material list:

PMI 88/4500 HPA Tank
Several chunks of 1/8" threaded Steel braided hose
Several angular fittings
A drill and tap set
WGP Regulator
1/8" Ball Valve

We ran the tank to the reg, and drilled/tapped the PCs air bladder, in one of the plastic parts. We turned the reg down to a low pressure (Maybe about 200psi? We were stupid, no gauges), ran the reg to the ball valve, and that to the PC. You'd gas up the tank, turn the ball valve and let the bladder inflate (which happens fast), turn off the valve, and shoot the blaster. Pull out the clip, put in a new one, repeat. I think we could theoretically shoot a several thousand shots off of one tank.

We did the same to an AT2K, but it didn't turn out as well...apparantly, Nerf plastics and bonding materials aren't up to 200psi of air...
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hug the fuck out of 'em, philippe!

#17 J cobbers

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Posted 20 March 2005 - 02:19 PM

We did the same to an AT2K, but it didn't turn out as well...apparantly, Nerf plastics and bonding materials aren't up to 200psi of air...

Well that and they don't have the over flow release that a PC, WF or RF20 have on the ends of the rubber bladders. Those guns are designed to be incabale of over pumping while the at2k well isn't. Still sounds like a pretty cool set up.
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