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#1 AirApache

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:46 AM

JOHN R. McKINNEY

Rank and organization: Sergeant (then Private), U.S. Army, Company A, 123d Infantry, 33d Infantry Division.
Place and date: Tayabas Province, Luzon, Philippine Islands, 11 May 1945.
Entered service at: Woodcliff, Ga.
Born: Woodcliff, Georgia.
G.O. No.: 14, 4 February 1946.
Pvt. McKinney fought with extreme gallantry to defend the outpost which had been established near Dingalan Bay. Just before daybreak approximately 100 Japanese stealthily attacked the perimeter defense, concentrating on a light machinegun position manned by three Americans. Having completed a long tour of duty at this gun, Pvt. McKinney was resting a few paces away when an enemy soldier dealt him a glancing blow on the head with a saber. Although dazed by the stroke, he seized his rifle, bludgeoned his attacker, and then shot another assailant who was charging him. Meanwhile, one of his comrades at the machinegun had been wounded and his other companion withdrew carrying the injured man to safety. Alone, Pvt. McKinney was confronted by 10 infantrymen who had captured the machinegun with the evident intent of reversing it to fire into the perimeter. Leaping into the emplacement, he shot 7 of them at pointblank range and killed three more with his rifle butt. In the melee the machinegun was rendered inoperative, leaving him only his rifle with which to meet the advancing Japanese, who hurled grenades and directed knee mortar shells into the perimeter. He warily changed position, secured more ammunition, and reloading repeatedly, cut down waves of the fanatical enemy with devastating fire or clubbed them to death in hand-to-hand combat. When assistance arrived, he had thwarted the assault and was in complete control of the area. Thirty-eight dead Japanese around the machinegun and two more at the side of a mortar 45 yards distant was the amazing toll he had exacted single-handedly. By his indomitable spirit, extraordinary fighting ability, and unwavering courage in the face of tremendous odds, Pvt. McKinley saved his company from possible annihilation and set an example of unsurpassed intrepidity.

^^Won a medal of honor. Anyone disagree with that choice?

Edited by AirApache, 09 March 2005 - 02:16 AM.

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#2 taita cakes

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:49 AM

Well, the only thing I find wrong with that is how little of that would have to be true. I'm sure you're quoting directly, but, well, as happenned a lot in the time, things were misconstrued for morale and propoganda. The guy's a great choice if he did all that, but I find it really impossible that he obtained even half that death toll.

Amazing fiction.
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#3 AirApache

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 02:00 AM

Well you have your opinion; I doubt that this was used for propaganda purposes because most Medal of Honor recipients do not flaunt or even let most people know that they have won such high honors. In fact if you search for him on the internet, you won't get many results at all.

Just because someone did something amazing and won a high end award doesn't mean what they did is exaggerated or a propaganda tool. Just think if you were McKinney and you overheard someone telling a person that your accomplishments were faked.

http://www.worldwari...onor/Luzon.html
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/Moh1.htm
Is this just a big lie?

Edited by AirApache, 09 March 2005 - 02:23 AM.

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#4 taita cakes

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 02:49 AM

Look at the times. It wasn't uncommon. In fact, there are reports and stories of people being caught up in these lies.

I onlt doubt it more so because of the figures.
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#5 CTA then and now

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 06:25 AM

Yeah, I agree with taita_cakes. It might have happened, but the figures might not have been so high.
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#6 The Infinite Shindig

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:06 AM

Look at the times. It wasn't uncommon. In fact, there are reports and stories of people being caught up in these lies.

I onlt doubt it more so because of the figures.

Taita, link me to some of those figures. I remain optimistic and believe stories of Medal of Honor winners. And to be quite honest, I remain in shock and awe over your comments. Show me the facts, or shut your trap.
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#7 Talio

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 12:03 PM

Shinny he lives in Australlia, there opinions don't count. Silly rabbit.

Talio.
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#8 Bad Karma

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 12:46 PM

Always count on Tait to put a damper on things ;)
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#9 merlinski

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 01:54 PM

38, while impressive, is most certainly not impossible. The hard thing to believe is that he could "club to death" or use his rifle butt to kill several people. Especially if those people were armed. I don't care how strong you are, one blow will very rarely kill someone, you would probably need to come back to them or hit them several times, and doing this while there are several other men around you seems pretty difficult. In addition, the use of terms like "fanatical enemy" suggests that it was embellished a little. However, none of us were there so we can't exactly confirm or deny it, and I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

What I don't get is why you posted this specific medal of honor. There are tons of impressive acts, some even moreso than this. Just look at what Gary Gordan and Randy Shugart did during the raid in Somalia in 1993. They both volunteered to go into a situation where it was just them against literally hundreds of people, and fought until all their ammunation was expended. You can find it on the site you linked to.
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#10 Viper

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 03:16 PM

I wasn't there, but in the guys defense its kinda hard to keep a tally when you're in that situation. I doubt it was used as propaganda, for we would have heard more about that particular guy more. Maybe it was like 26? Even then or if its like 3 the guy still deserves the honor. I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who fights for our freedom.
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#11 fastkill

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 03:37 PM

Damn this guy is brave. Half of us here would run away screaming the japanese are invaiding the fort meanwhile this guy stayed saved his men and fought.
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#12 AirApache

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:31 PM

I've read a lot of the stories and a lot of them deserve more than this guy to be up there, but the melee part and the whole shabang altogether just...is like, awesome.

Oh and I think if you melee someone with your rifle in their head (after military training) you have a good chance of knocking them out, or at least making them dazed enough for you to kill them with other means. Perhaps he didn't kill them on impact with the meleeing. But its still cool. Some of these are really sad....like there is one where the guy saved his company from a grenade explosion by taking the grenade and wrapping his body around it so the shrapnel only hit him.

A lot of these medals of honor are awarded posthumously and I just want you guys to remember that while we're yakkin' away at political issues, it's really these guys that put their lives on the line to save yours, literally, and that these heroes almost are never given recognition beyond medals, because if they live they don't flaunt their experiences. It's not a game, and they didn't do those things for the medals.
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#13 3nerfiteers

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 08:46 PM

I'll stick with Audie Murphy as for a memorable hero during world war II thank you. That guy still amazes me. P.S. AirApache, that signature still makes me laugh!

Edited by 3nerfiteers, 09 March 2005 - 08:50 PM.

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#14 taita cakes

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:47 AM

I only skimmed it, but the general idea was exaggeration ...

I didn't really look much online, because a lot of the references are in last years History texts.

It's not that I discredit this guys bravery, I just doubt that he could rifle-butt one person, not be shot by several others, then rifle-butt another, then not be shot again, then keep going. Common sense, why didn't they just fkn shoot him? -_-

Taita, link me to some of those figures. I remain optimistic and believe stories of Medal of Honor winners. And to be quite honest, I remain in shock and awe over your comments. Show me the facts, or shut your trap.

However, none of us were there so we can't exactly confirm or deny it, and I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Always count on Tait to put a damper on things


Yeah, I quite agree, we have no witnesses to neither confirm nor deny these actions, high emphasis on the confirm. But when it comes to an era of propoganda and misconstrued, censored information [I'm not saying America, or just America], I have no tolerance for overstated figures and sheer stupidity.

But, like many of these cases I did happen upon while browsing, time has caught a lot of them out. One example is only now, in his retirement, being discovered, and coincidentally admitting to his self-glorification. [ link ]

A lot of these medals of honor are awarded posthumously and I just want you guys to remember that while we're yakkin' away at political issues, it's really these guys that put their lives on the line to save yours, literally, and that these heroes almost are never given recognition beyond medals, because if they live they don't flaunt their experiences. It's not a game, and they didn't do those things for the medals.

Amen.
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#15 The Infinite Shindig

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 01:14 AM

Taita, you sumitted some rather intriguing links. I did not even know that Lyndon Johnson even received the Silver Star, so I'll give you that story. The whole Pappy exaggeration I'm not surprised about either. Though this needs to be said, I wanted you to find me a reliable link that can reasonably stake a claim that a Medal of Honor winner faked or greatly exaggerated a story.

I recognize that the story listed above can be read as far fetched, but some of the other tales I have read and heard are so amazing, that to call some false would be liking call them all false.

Perhaps this discrepancy won't get anywhere. Maybe I won't get over the fact that you're a foreigner that is over critical of US accomplishments. And perhaps you won't get over the fact that I'm blinded by my own country's "propoganda," but I'd like to see where this conversation goes.

You find me some links, and I'll pull up some more war stories. If this thing gets really carried away, we can continue over PM for all I care.
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#16 taita cakes

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 01:22 AM

Perhaps this discrepancy won't get anywhere. Maybe I won't get over the fact that you're a foreigner that is over critical of US accomplishments. And perhaps you won't get over the fact that I'm blinded by my own country's "propoganda," but I'd like to see where this conversation goes.

Perhaps you could spare the indirectness and say what you really mean.

Apart from that, I didn't really research that hard on google, although I did find some interesting sites with interesting reports/stories/facts. A lot of what I refer to comes from my in depth History course and its text-books. More than one make reference to an exaggeration on both personal, and government parts. All I mean to say is that propoganda and morale were two key factors in the war, always have been, and always will be.

I'll get you some solid evidence when I cbf.
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#17 AirApache

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 01:30 AM

Politicians using medals as part of their campaign doesnt surprise me (Kerry).

It still disturbs me though, knowing that there are hundreds of dead or alive men out there who did heroic events beyond our imagination, quietly accepted the highest honors, and then seeing someone flaunt their Purple Hearts or their Silver Stars in public. I know, they have every right to, but it still kind of sparks some disgust.
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#18 taita cakes

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 02:41 AM

After about 5 minutes googling, I suggest you do some yourself. I still recommend many common History texts as it is likely it will mention it. As for googling, as an American you may have difficulty with such phrases, but try looking for "false war heroes" and "american propoganda" etc.


Just a very interesting look at the US contracted propoganda group the Committee on Public Information. Includes Disney's Der Fueher's Face
[ link ]



Bored me, but still worth reading. Maybe :S
[ link ]



And finally, this, which is more proof of individuals fabricating their stories. Unfortunately, it is pretty hard finding discussion of the American leaders fabricating such stories for some unknown reason. It may have earned a mention, but I only read the first few paragraphs.
[ link ]

I doubt that this was used for propaganda purposes because most Medal of Honor recipients do not flaunt or even let most people know that they have won such high honors.

Well, if you check out the above link, and do a little reasearch, I think you'll find that's far from the truth.


And just so you know,

3,410 have been recipients of the Medal of Honor, 574 of them posthumously.




P.S. - Some guys hilarious, incoherent rant on the matter [ link ]
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#19 AirApache

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 02:59 AM

Hey now TC, no battle lines between us. Let's get this straight. I know there are fakers out there and morons who DO flaunt them, but thats not "far from the truth." While there are many people who are idiots, the majority of the people who earned a medal did earn it, otherwise they wouldn't hand them out would they?

As for the numbers, that may have been overall, but when looking up the descriptions of their heroic acts, definitely more than half of the ones I've read so far have been awarded posthumously.

I don't know why you're so against the fact that there are many people out there who actually have good in their hearts. Maybe its just general anti-American feelings..then I can understand you fully.

And that guy who wrote your P.S. article is....I'm not really sure how to describe it. Haha.
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#20 taita cakes

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:51 AM

Hey now TC, no battle lines between us. Let's get this straight. I know there are fakers out there and morons who DO flaunt them, but thats not "far from the truth." While there are many people who are idiots, the majority of the people who earned a medal did earn it, otherwise they wouldn't hand them out would they?

As for the numbers, that may have been overall, but when looking up the descriptions of their heroic acts, definitely more than half of the ones I've read so far have been awarded posthumously.

I don't know why you're so against the fact that there are many people out there who actually have good in their hearts. Maybe its just general anti-American feelings..then I can understand you fully.

And that guy who wrote your P.S. article is....I'm not really sure how to describe it. Haha.

Heh. Yeah. Crazy rando. So many spelling mistakes too.

Yeah, that was wierd what you just wrote. I mean, yeah, gallant acts, but still, the figures still stand that roughly one sixth were post humous. Ummm, that is 1/6 right? My maths is so shit -_- -_-


EDIT: Yeah, that bold underline preface in the last was really flame intensive, I didn't mean it to be.

Edited by taita_cakes, 10 March 2005 - 03:52 AM.

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#21 okto

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 02:28 PM

To the "he didn't bludgeon them" kids: Have you ever held an M1 Garand? It's heavy. First guy he killed had a saber, too, so that's totally believable.

Tait, your comment about "an era of misconstrued information and propaganda" isn't really relevant, because it was a war. That's how wars work. You inflate numbers to boost morale. You can't win a total war without doing that; propaganda is not all bad.


This shouldn't have been made into a patriotic-American-versus-liberal-Aussie thing, but since it has I'll leave you with this: We don't question the diggers' heroics in WWII. I wouldn't refute you about what they were awarded the Victoria Cross or whatever for it. Let's respect that both of our countries had heroes, thousands or millions of whom died to protect our freedom, and let the details of their heroism drop in the face of our gratitude for their actions, knowing that whatever they did, however many guys they shot, blew up, or bashed to death, it was enough to get the job done and more than we could likely ask of ourselves.

Edited by okto, 10 March 2005 - 02:35 PM.

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#22 Ash

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:27 PM

I just need to comment here.

I think it's funny that so many of you have trouble swallowing this. If you go and look back in history there are plenty of stories of small numbers of troops killing incredibly large numbers of people. The alamo, the famous spartan battle, etc. Granted, this story seems a bit tall, and maybe they inflated the numbers slightly, but I still wouldn't simply discredit the idea and say it's impossible and that it is made up right off the bat. I might also add that it is entrirely credible for someone to kill someone by hitting them with the but of a gun once. Just because you watch movies and people get the living shit beat out of them and live doesn't mean that's how it is in real life. You can nail someone in the head once with a blunt object and easily put them down.

The fact is most of you have no idea what it's like... i'm not saying I do, but you really don't know since you've never been in the situation. If you want to see a good example of what I'm talking about, go watch The Alamo and check out how many people the tiny little encampment manages to take out. That movie is one of the most accurate historical movies I have seen in a long time. There are very few facts embellished upon and very few facts skewed.
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#23 cxwq

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 03:37 PM

Seriously.

Ten thousand men defeated the two-hundred thousand strong host of Mordor in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. After that, all the other mismatches just seem too easy.
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#24 okto

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 04:26 PM

That...may not have been real.
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#25 Crankymonky

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 09:12 PM

Guys, he clearly aimbots.

How else would you kill 7 guys when surrounded by 10? Maybe speed hacks?

Maybe he is just 1337.
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