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Trying to get back into it


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#1 veginator

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:51 PM

Hey, I'm an old nerf tard who got into modifying back in 2007 and eventually lost interest after a lets say an 'unsatisfying nerf war'. Well my younger brother has caught the bug and I've been looking to make a mini come back. What I'm asking today is what kinds of blasters are competitive, and what are the wars that are popular now? I want to do at least one more war/event before I have to become full adult and quit forever. Let me know whats a good blaster/mod combo. I have almost unlimited access to a machine shop, 3D printing lab, and EDM cutter... aka I can make anything. Show me what you got.


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#2 Meaker VI

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:34 AM

Full adult... pah. I believe I remember you from back in the heyday, I'm still around and kicking and I am well and truly an adult. I'm just supposed to host the wars to help raise the young 'uns now.

 

Captain Slug's Caliburn (printed or machined) is the top-tier homemade on the block ATM; albeit if you've got full access to machine tools and know how you could build something pneumatic or one of Boltsniper's old builds. Slug sells a hardware kit for the printed version; that's the most economical way to get the parts if you go that route. Oh, and there is a barrel porting device called a SCAR barrel that works to improve accuracy for air-propelled blasters, it looks like rifling but most of us believe it functions by allowing the muzzle blast to redistribute around the dart.

 

The FDL-2 is a high-end flywheel build. Back when they first appeared, flywheels were a joke; but battery technology and the hobby have advanced and now flywheel blasters are threatening to breach 200 FPS with full or semi-automatic capabilities. The meta is not to use flywheels as energy storage, but instead to use wheels to transfer energy from the battery pack to the dart. Torukmakto4's T19/Hy-con is also a high end build following a different methodology and still WIP. Accuracy in flywheels is controlled mostly by balance, precision, and consistency in feeding.

 

For modding, you'll want a rapidstrike or a stryfe(oid; there are several blasters that are compatible). From there, aftermarket wheels, motors, cage, switch, and a full rewire.

 

For any flywheel option, you'll need a high-power hobby (or power tool) battery pack and charger. Nimh, Lipo, Lion, etc; just don't use regular battery cells.

 

Alternatively, you could go RIVALs for high-capacity stuff, but be aware that they're capped out at ~130 FPS because the ammunition can't really go faster.

 

For further clarification ask. It's hard to go into more specifics when I don't know your goals or preferred direction.


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#3 Elithenerficorn

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:35 AM

If you are an older nerfer looking for some nostalgia, modified long shots with brass breaches and pump grips are still competitive just because of sheer plunger volume, but you’ll want to order your darts instead of making them, and maybe order magazines specifically made for half darts
Alternatively instead of a brass breach, you could order an alpha kit from jetx, which is a sealed breach out of the box.
Or if you are trying to make something super quick, maketestbattle’s sledgfire mod guide will show you how to make a 150fps+ blaster for very little.
If you want to sink a bit more money into a project, get a prophesy kit from worker
Otherwise I agree With Meaker, flywheels are good and homemades are better
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Can I get a large FUCK YOU with a side of nerf please.

#4 Spud Spudoni

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:58 PM

What's up Veg

 

As of recently, the South East Nerf Community kind of exploded and exists mostly on FB now. They have wars monthly if I remember, but they are almost all "superstock" which are lightly modded springer or flywheel blasters using stock darts so not really the same place where things like +bows with speedloaders play well together. They usually get one to two "NIC" (homemade, heavily modded blasters, homemade darts) a year, but haven't been able to host any in the last year. So hell if I know at this point if it'll ever get back to higher powered blasters in GA.


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#5 veginator

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:30 PM

No more high powered blasters!?! Back in my day, my singled basspro shotgun had a stock spring, longshot spring, and a [k26]. If your blaster didn't draw blood at close range then it wasn't worth it. I get that hvz has become more popular so blasters couldn't be as powerful but god damn thats pretty lame.

Oh btw, when I say I can make anything I mean it. Being a senior mechanical engineering student doing research has its perks. What is something you guys would like to see?


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#6 Meaker VI

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 10:26 PM

No more high powered blasters!?! Back in my day, my singled basspro shotgun had a stock spring, longshot spring, and a [[k26]]. If your blaster didn't draw blood at close range then it wasn't worth it. I get that hvz has become more popular so blasters couldn't be as powerful but god damn thats pretty lame.


Yeah, those are fewer and further between. Part of the issue is that none of the major blaster manufacturers make anything easily modified to that kind of power anymore.
 

Oh btw, when I say I can make anything I mean it. Being a senior mechanical engineering student doing research has its perks. What is something you guys would like to see?

I've been working on some flywheel stuff if you're interested in looking at any of it.

 

Otherwise, I've been wanting to see a chain/belt-fed absolver shotgun.


Edited by Meaker VI, 09 March 2018 - 10:26 PM.

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#7 TED

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:17 PM

Oh btw, when I say I can make anything I mean it. Being a senior mechanical engineering student doing research has its perks.


#humblebrag
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Star Wars can go fuck itself.

#8 veginator

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 08:58 PM

I like the idea of a chain fed absolver but it doesn't really make a lot of sense with the all the high cap mags available now. I was talking to my brother and apparently whats keeping the power down on the ball shooters is the plunger size. Is this correct? I could solve that real quick on the lathe.

 

#humblebrag

Yeah bud. Want me to tell you all the ways I better than you?


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#9 TED

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:48 PM

*
POPULAR

I like the idea of a chain fed absolver but it doesn't really make a lot of sense with the all the high cap mags available now. I was talking to my brother and apparently whats keeping the power down on the ball shooters is the plunger size. Is this correct? I could solve that real quick on the lathe.
 
Yeah bud. Want me to tell you all the ways I better than you?


Yes I would like that.
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Star Wars can go fuck itself.

#10 Meaker VI

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:12 PM

I like the idea of a chain fed absolver but it doesn't really make a lot of sense with the all the high cap mags available now.


Eh, high cap hoppers (for HIRs) maybe, but for darts things are still low-ish cap. I have a working prototype that solves that one way, but even if I get that working as well as it can, an absolver chain gun would absolutely still be a valid thing IMO.

I was talking to my brother and apparently whats keeping the power down on the ball shooters is the plunger size. Is this correct? I could solve that real quick on the lathe.


No. HIRs have an upper velocity limit before they become unstable as projectiles. You would need to redesign the ball. All the blasters either hit ~120-130 FPS stock or can be spring-swapped to hit that and then it is a glass ceiling.
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#11 veginator

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

What about the 35 round drums? I know they weren't the greatest but they are certainly less unwieldy than a chain dangling down from the front.

Seeing as rifled barrels are becoming more common place on darts, I'm assuming similar tactics have been tried on the balls. What has been tried? From personal experience I know that, when fired fast enough from a barrel, golf balls will be unstable in flight unless you use a rifled barrel. Hell even a little back spin makes them much more stable at higher velocities.


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#12 TantumBull

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:03 PM

Oh btw, when I say I can make anything I mean it. Being a senior mechanical engineering student doing research has its perks. What is something you guys would like to see?

That's adorable.

 

Seeing as rifled barrels are becoming more common place on darts, I'm assuming similar tactics have been tried on the balls. What has been tried? From personal experience I know that, when fired fast enough from a barrel, golf balls will be unstable in flight unless you use a rifled barrel. Hell even a little back spin makes them much more stable at higher velocities.

To be clear, rifled barrels when used on darts are not used to impart spin. Anyone who claims that spin is the what makes the dart more accurate has a pretty elementary understanding of what's going on. I'm sure you already knew this though, being an engineering undergrad and all. The only reason that it's useful to change the twist ratio (a la Scar) is that doing so also changes the elastic inner diameter of the muzzle device. As you might imagine, more turns = smaller effective diameter.

 

Rifling and hop-up would be much more beneficial on a projectile with uniform density, like a rival round. As you nay surmise with your spud gun experience, hop up can increase the range and rifling the accuracy. I have seen some work with hop-up, but haven't seen much with rifling. That would be an interesting place to start if you're looking for a project.


Edited by TantumBull, 11 March 2018 - 07:04 PM.

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#13 veginator

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 07:50 PM

That's adorable.

 

To be clear, rifled barrels when used on darts are not used to impart spin. Anyone who claims that spin is the what makes the dart more accurate has a pretty elementary understanding of what's going on. I'm sure you already knew this though, being an engineering undergrad and all. The only reason that it's useful to change the twist ratio (a la Scar) is that doing so also changes the elastic inner diameter of the muzzle device. As you might imagine, more turns = smaller effective diameter.

 

Rifling and hop-up would be much more beneficial on a projectile with uniform density, like a rival round. As you nay surmise with your spud gun experience, hop up can increase the range and rifling the accuracy. I have seen some work with hop-up, but haven't seen much with rifling. That would be an interesting place to start if you're looking for a project.

Yeah I know, I tend to brag too much when I've been drinking.

 

I can think of a few ways to put some rifling inside a barrel. What is the current preferred barrel material for the rival rounds? Initial idea would be to mill a sleeve of tight barrel material and then slide it inside an outer barrel. Trying to make it out of one piece and be uniform would require a much more complex machining operation which I really don't feel like dealing with.


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#14 TantumBull

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:06 PM

What is the current preferred barrel material for the rival rounds?

 

I recommend contacting Slug on that front. I, personally, have very little interest in rival and I'm not up to date on related mods/homemades. However, I do know that Slug has a version of the Caliburn that accepts rival rounds. He might have some suggestions related to barrel diameter and his experiences with what worked and what didn't.


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#15 Meaker VI

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 08:19 PM

I can think of a few ways to put some rifling inside a barrel. What is the current preferred barrel material for the rival rounds? Initial idea would be to mill....

Woah woah woah engineer. Current SCAR methodology is just fishing line run through the pipe and anchored at either end. Try that first, then break out your fancy mill.

Also know that, as far as Im aware, all RIVAL blasters already use hopup. Theyre also one of the most accurate rounds. So additional work there might be fruitless.

Chains can go in backpacks. Chains can also carry way more than 35 rounds, and a well-designed chain advance mech shouldnt jam like a mag/breech setup would. Chains also let you use absolvers as every shot. You said anything so Im holding you to it until I get my chain-fed absolver shotgun. Power source can be springer or pneumatic, your choice.

Edit: For those grammar nazis that may lurk here, I typed all the appropriate apostrophes where needed. The mobile site edits them out for some reason.

Edited by Meaker VI, 11 March 2018 - 08:20 PM.

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#16 Elithenerficorn

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 08:19 AM

I’m with Meaker, I want a belt fed absolver shotgun
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Can I get a large FUCK YOU with a side of nerf please.

#17 veginator

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 06:46 PM

Woah woah woah engineer. Current SCAR methodology is just fishing line run through the pipe and anchored at either end. Try that first, then break out your fancy mill.

Fancy mill? Its just a vertical mill. Wouldn't be hard to put some barrel material in an indexing collet and start drilling some holes. I don't typically use the fancy cnc mill. Also, I always hated those fishing line and nail-on-a-stick methods for getting a rifled barrel.

 

A chain fed shotgun would be relatively easy in theory. Just replace the turret with a couple big sprockets like the vulcan has. Get me some dimensions and I can make a solidworks file simply enough. 


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#18 jaxmeh

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 10:41 PM

Check out Chris Cartaya's Merlin brass barrel attachment if you're interested in a more refined type of barrel rifling. With a machine shop, I'm sure you could create a more refined/mass production-friendly version than his Dremel and file made product.
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#19 Meaker VI

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 11:05 PM

A chain fed shotgun would be relatively easy in theory. Just replace the turret with a couple big sprockets like the vulcan has. Get me some dimensions and I can make a solidworks file simply enough. 

 

I've wondered if sprockets are the best way, or if a proper pawl setup would be better and NERF et. al. doesn't do it because they're used to turrets and turrets work fine for stock blasters.

 

Either way, I was thinking 1" 200 PSI PVC would be a good shell size. 3 darts should fit no problem, 4 if you cram them in, mega/rivals could also fit if you wanted. OD is 1.315" for all varieties of 1" PVC, ID is +/- 1.16-1.189". PVC because it'd be cheap enough to build a belt out of: 10' of the stuff would make ~40 links in the chain for ~$5 (plus whatever filler you use to make the barrels). When I was considering it more seriously, I was going to make a jig to just duct tape the shells together into a belt. Seemed like a good combination of simple, reliable, and cheap.


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#20 TantumBull

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:14 AM

Fancy mill? Its just a vertical mill. Wouldn't be hard to put some barrel material in an indexing collet and start drilling some holes. I don't typically use the fancy cnc mill. Also, I always hated those fishing line and nail-on-a-stick methods for getting a rifled barrel.

Again, rifling isn't really what matters here. Check out Slug's recent thread about the VF1 barrel alongside the SCAR. Both were identical unless the fit wasn't right in the SCAR, then performance was better on the SCAR. The whole idea of fishing line is an adjustable elastic barrel, not to impart spin. People like JSPB and others who do it for spin are correlating two things and assuming causation. In terms of fluid dyanmics, it makes no sense that spin would help a nerf dart, DOOM wrote a dissertation-style nerf document that modeled a dart and came to the same conclusion, and cited evidence that spin doesn't help. DOOM'd document is an excellent read if you're up for it, its on his website, go read it.

 

What Meaker is getting at is there is zero advantage to turning/milling a rifled barrel for nerf. Either 3D print Slug's VF1 and tune the diameter, or use a SCAR barrel. 

 

 

Get me some dimensions and I can make a solidworks file simply enough. 

I hope that you are either being flippant or are referring to the dimensions of some specific part, like a nerf dart or stock vulcan chain. The dimensions are dictated by the design that no one has come up with. Everyone and their little sister can CAD these days, that part is trivial. Spending the time to design, prototype, and revise is what they were asking of you, not simply drawing up someone else's work.


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#21 stuck by stefan

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:45 PM

Woah you have an engineering degree that obviously means you are a god of design and fabrication and make literally anything


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#22 veginator

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 06:36 PM

 

I've wondered if sprockets are the best way, or if a proper pawl setup would be better and NERF et. al. doesn't do it because they're used to turrets and turrets work fine for stock blasters.

 

Either way, I was thinking 1" 200 PSI PVC would be a good shell size. 3 darts should fit no problem, 4 if you cram them in, mega/rivals could also fit if you wanted. OD is 1.315" for all varieties of 1" PVC, ID is +/- 1.16-1.189". PVC because it'd be cheap enough to build a belt out of: 10' of the stuff would make ~40 links in the chain for ~$5 (plus whatever filler you use to make the barrels). When I was considering it more seriously, I was going to make a jig to just duct tape the shells together into a belt. Seemed like a good combination of simple, reliable, and cheap.

Oh wow, I misunderstood what you were asking for. For some reason I got in my head that you wanted to chain feed a doomsayer. So what you are asking for is a chain fed shotgun in the literal sense. That's a bit different than what I had in my head. Let me think for a bit on that.

 

Again, rifling isn't really what matters here. Check out Slug's recent thread about the VF1 barrel alongside the SCAR. Both were identical unless the fit wasn't right in the SCAR, then performance was better on the SCAR. The whole idea of fishing line is an adjustable elastic barrel, not to impart spin. People like JSPB and others who do it for spin are correlating two things and assuming causation. In terms of fluid dyanmics, it makes no sense that spin would help a nerf dart, DOOM wrote a dissertation-style nerf document that modeled a dart and came to the same conclusion, and cited evidence that spin doesn't help. DOOM'd document is an excellent read if you're up for it, its on his website, go read it.

 

What Meaker is getting at is there is zero advantage to turning/milling a rifled barrel for nerf. Either 3D print Slug's VF1 and tune the diameter, or use a SCAR barrel. 

 

 

I hope that you are either being flippant or are referring to the dimensions of some specific part, like a nerf dart or stock vulcan chain. The dimensions are dictated by the design that no one has come up with. Everyone and their little sister can CAD these days, that part is trivial. Spending the time to design, prototype, and revise is what they were asking of you, not simply drawing up someone else's work.

I'm not talking about using it for a dart. From the evidence slug has presented its obvious that this would not work on a dart. I'm talking about the rival rounds and making them more stable at a higher velocity. I only want to use a mill because I want to. I like to work with my hands, that's it.

 

Woah you have an engineering degree that obviously means you are a god of design and fabrication and make literally anything

I neither have a degree nor am I the god of fabrication. What I do have is a fairly well equipped machine shop and some advanced research equipment. I also have a little bit of fab experience with stuff like automotive intake manifolds, exhaust, and chassis bracing.


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#23 Elithenerficorn

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 02:31 PM

I'm not talking about using it for a dart. From the evidence slug has presented its obvious that this would not work on a dart. I'm talking about the rival rounds and making them more stable at a higher velocity. I only want to use a mill because I want to. I like to work with my hands, that's it.


No one really knows at this point if rivals can be made stable enough so that you can put a shitload of power behind it, do some prototyping with rifled barrels and an air gun and tell us your results
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Can I get a large FUCK YOU with a side of nerf please.


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