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Flywheel ammo length?


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#1 Xhosant

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 08:35 AM

So, I was thinking: stefans are shorter than standard darts, right?

A longer dart gives more time for the flywheel to speed up the shot.

But, since it ends up pushing the back, it might cause the dart to flip out of control.

So what's the ideal flywheel dart length?
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#2 Meaker VI

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 09:49 AM

Full-length darts do fine out of flywheel blasters up to speeds that would cause darts that length to whirlybird anyway. Short darts (1/2 length, 1/3) tend to get less velocity from the wheels, unless using systems like Turok's Hycon, OFP's new Eclipse setup, or other big-wheel or high envelopment setups. Then, just like in springer nerf, the shorter darts should be more stable and similar velocity, though the system might still put more energy into a long dart.


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#3 Xhosant

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 10:56 AM

Let me get this, Eclipse squishes the dart to avoid slip and maximise push-age? Or spin the wheels faster than would be practical with less friction?

And what's HyCon's thing?
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#4 Meaker VI

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:17 PM

Both Eclipse and Hycon do the same thing. Or rather, they do similar things in slightly different ways. Hycon requires a brushless motor setup with a custom build, Eclipse will be run off standard super-stock brushed motors and should fit into stock blasters.

 

Both have flywheels with a substantial "C" shaped concave outer edge. The purpose is to have maximum contact between the dart and the flywheels. Higher contact means more possible friction. Another way to achieve higher friction is increased crush ("squish") on the dart. The crush is actually pretty minor on either of these wheel designs as I understand it, but because the dart is being fed through an essentially circular channel, it has a similar effect to a pretty high-crush setup without the damage to the darts such a setup can cause.

 

FPS for both setups appears to be ~180 FPS depending on the exact setup. High-crush setups have been getting higher and higher numbers, but I don't know if I've seen higher than 160-170 FPS out of a high crush system, and as I mentioned, that kind of setup usually destroys darts.


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#5 ToadBrews

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:48 AM

High concavity, standard crush setups should also be able to fire harder tipped darts like FVJ's, which high crush setups struggle with, right?


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#6 ComradeSch

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 07:42 PM

High concavity, standard crush setups should also be able to fire harder tipped darts like FVJ's, which high crush setups struggle with, right?

Probably, more surface area means more kinetic energy transferred to the dart and less crush for the same benefit would also be better for dart lifespan too.


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#7 Lamp3345

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:53 AM

(Deleted)

Edited by Lamp3345, 09 January 2018 - 01:46 PM.

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#8 Lamp3345

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:54 AM

Speaking of Stefans and flywheels I have an idea for a new magazine for Stefans
This mag would carry about double the capacity v a regular mag by literally being double stacked and what I mean by that is youd have 2 individual dart pushers the back most on would have some slider that auto returns back to push the dart in the front into the flywheels youd basically have a full length dart but cut in 2 the back dart pushes the front dart into the flywheels the back dart pusher then feeds a new back dart into place replacing the old thats now in the front position when the last back dart is pushed to the front the slider then takes the place of the dart now the remaining front darts are fed into the flywheels being push via the slider this mag will not at all work with springers period

This would be close to my idea but less the top slider https://www.thingive...m/thing:1536256
Tell me what you think
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=JxfNwwPuOeg
Could work similar to this 16 dart hammer shot but in a mag
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#9 Meaker VI

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:07 PM

This probably should have been a totally new post, since the only words in it that are on-topic are darts and length.

- snipped The longest run on sentence Ive ever seen -
Tell me what you think


It sounds like youre talking about a either a double-stroke pusher and confusing it for a double-stack mag (itd just be loaded with two darts where normally thered be one) or an actual double-stacked mag?

In the first (and simplifying the idea from possibly two wholly seperate pushers to one that extends halfway) people do this sometimes with a regular pusher/bolt for a shotgun effect. While a two-stroke mag is interesting in that itd give you more shots from standard mags, itd require a blaster designed to do it, or modifying an existing blaster to have a very long stroke. Possible, maybe mock something real up and get back to us.

Also in that vein, someone recently made a double-load half-length mag that, while lacking spring sources, would functionally accomplish the same thing. It was basically two half-length mags back-to-back, with one upsidedown. Flip the clip and *bam*, another XX darts loaded. Double capacity in the space of a regular full-size mag.

As for true double stack, that has been done, but again, totally custom blaster (*and* mags) required.

You might be interested in my Mk-13 prototype (homemades, I think its on the second page; oddly enough I was working with it again just now). Its a blower-fed mag that appears to work with 50+ darts. Sill ironing out form, structure, and other specifics, but the concept is easy to try. Need to make some half-lengths and see how it likes those.
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#10 Lamp3345

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 01:38 PM

Ok I agree with I should do a new post but I thought that it could fit in with this one I think my attempt at expressing the idea was not well written

What Im think of is a mag that only takes half lengths but holds 2 individual supplys the first supply would push itself into the flywheels then be shot then the dart that just push the previous one into the flywheels would become the one to be shot next

I will try and post a pic some how and link with a mock up

Update
https://ibb.co/h2mXP6
A quick mock up circles are darts the rectangles are pushers the rod connecting 2 is a spring

Update
https://drive.google...TyI1S3MPWV4UQdF
An another mock up

Edited by Lamp3345, 09 January 2018 - 02:02 PM.

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#11 Meaker VI

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 03:58 PM

What Im think of is a mag that only takes half lengths but holds 2 individual supplys the first supply would push itself into the flywheels then be shot then the dart that just push the previous one into the flywheels would become the one to be shot next

 

Ah, ok; I think that mag you linked would already work like that, but a regular mag could probably also just function that way. Both in a properly-built blaster.

 

Basically, the finished setup would just give you a 2-round burst or 2-round semi mechanical option. IMO, bursts aren't worth much until 3 rounds (or whatever your tag-out rule is; in 3:XX a 3-round burst is a potential one-shot).

 

The other mag was a WIP remix of that that flipped one stack upside down so instead of flipping a switch, you dropped & reinserted the whole mag. IMO, for pure higher capacity (no burst), that's the way to go.


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#12 Lamp3345

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 10:02 PM

I see what youre saying but not exactly what I saying
What this mag would do is use a dart to push a dart into the flywheels one at a time meaning only half lengths would work then when theres no more darts to push forward a slider/pusher extender would take a dart place

So your mag sizes would look like this

6 clip = 11 half darts
12 clip = 23 half darts
18 clip = 25 half darts

Edited by Lamp3345, 09 January 2018 - 10:04 PM.

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#13 Xhosant

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:30 AM

Thread derailed, bit I'll do you one better.

Make a tube out of zip, so that it snuggly hugs stefans, and proceed to fill it with them. Build a flywheel with an extra motor pulling the zip forward (that's your trigger) with the zip's 'handle' being static. As the tube is pulled forward, its front end opens to release the dart, while the next, still-snug dart pushes it into the flywheels.

Proceed to make the tube ridiculously long and coil it around a wheel, for a simple belt-fed flywheel of indeterminately large capacity.
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#14 Meaker VI

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:48 AM

Thread derailed, bit I'll do you one better.

Make a tube out of zip, so that it snuggly hugs stefans, and proceed to fill it with them. Build a flywheel with an extra motor pulling the zip forward (that's your trigger) with the zip's 'handle' being static. As the tube is pulled forward, its front end opens to release the dart, while the next, still-snug dart pushes it into the flywheels.

Proceed to make the tube ridiculously long and coil it around a wheel, for a simple belt-fed flywheel of indeterminately large capacity.

This is similar to my blower fed thing. I tested it with a string at one point, friction was *super* high, so Im not clear weather that'd work or not.

A zipper that needs to be kept in tube form and unzipps to make the belt seems like a lot more work than just the tube and a blower.

Edited by Meaker VI, 10 January 2018 - 02:57 PM.

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#15 Xhosant

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 02:39 PM

This is similar to my blower fed thing. I tested it with a string at one point, friction was *super* high, so Im not cleae wether thatd work or not.

A zipper that needs to be kept in tube form and unzipps to make the belt seems like a lot more work than just the tube and a blower.

 

To be clear, I'm talking about linking the zipper's fabric ends around to themselves (by full fabric or just string on each dart), resulting in a tube that contains the darts and opens up to a belt as it is pulled forward and emptied.

Well, a blower has more and more resistance the longer you go, while this system would not be affected by its size for the most part (at some point the coil would be too heavy to be spun and unraveled without extra power, but you're talking emplacement at this size anyway).

If you don't mind dart wear, which is credible with stefans, you could go just with a string parallel to the darts and threads piercing them to keep them in place. Then, as you draw more ammo, the string is pulled and coiled out of the way, right after passing by a small razor that severs the threads, leaving the darts freed from the feeding mechanism but confined in their barrel and ready to be pushed in the flywheels by the next dart.


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#16 Lamp3345

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 03:19 PM

And what Im saying is a mag the takes Stefans and only works with flywheels NO SPRINGERS
It would almost be like 2 katana mags one in front of the other the back mag first dart push the front mags first dart in to the flywheels now the back mag second dart pushes the back mag first dart into the flywheels

Update
Quick video showing how to may work
https://streamable.com/y8pn6

Edited by Lamp3345, 10 January 2018 - 03:35 PM.

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#17 Xhosant

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 04:23 PM

It's not a bad design on its own, it's just that it has lots of moving parts, lots of special requirements, and 'just' doubles capacity for it.

If it helps, I can propose the following design, which should work for less trouble and most stock blasters (even springers). Basically, several (or just two) mags in series, sitting against a single, sliding 'top' of the mag, serving as an adapter to the magwell. As the lined-up mag empties, you automatically or manually (I'd go manually) shift the mags, so the next one is in line.

Alternatively, the principle of Khaos magazines can work for stefans.
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#18 Meaker VI

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 05:31 PM

And what Im saying is a mag the takes Stefans and only works with flywheels NO SPRINGERS
It would almost be like 2 katana mags one in front of the other the back mag first dart push the front mags first dart in to the flywheels now the back mag second dart pushes the back mag first dart into the flywheels

Update
Quick video showing how to may work
https://streamable.com/y8pn6

 

And what I'm talking about is this. Should work in all mag-fed blasters with little/no modification. Fully-double the capacity, no spacers.


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#19 Lamp3345

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:30 PM

It's not a bad design on its own, it's just that it has lots of moving parts, lots of special requirements, and 'just' doubles capacity for it.

If it helps, I can propose the following design, which should work for less trouble and most stock blasters (even springers). Basically, several (or just two) mags in series, sitting against a single, sliding 'top' of the mag, serving as an adapter to the magwell. As the lined-up mag empties, you automatically or manually (I'd go manually) shift the mags, so the next one is in line.

Alternatively, the principle of Khaos magazines can work for stefans.


Like the drum mag thing for that last big vortex blaster right
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#20 Lamp3345

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:35 PM

 
And what I'm talking about is this. Should work in all mag-fed blasters with little/no modification. Fully-double the capacity, no spacers.


Ok that concept would work well Id add some sort of cap or something that might move via gravity to make sure no data fall but what I want is a mag similar but no need to extend the stock push in any mag fed flywheels so in theory I can still use full length darts if I want in the same blaster without problems
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#21 Meaker VI

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:41 PM

... what I want is a mag similar but no need to extend the stock push in any mag fed flywheels so in theory I can still use full length darts if I want in the same blaster without problems

 

You could pobably add some sort of spring-return pusher to either end of the mag I linked, or a removable pusher-extender, but IMO you're talking more work than it's worth to do it your way. You've got to solve the problems with the linked mag (spring supply, mostly) as well as come up with a pusher-plug and design the thing nearly from scratch.


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#22 Lamp3345

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

Putting that aside what do you think of the concept now that I thibk you understand what I was saying
Or if anything all youd really need to design is the pusher plug / dart fedder then you could put it in any Stefan mag and make it work with stock pushers

Like take a worker Stefan pemag and add a plug before the dart that gets push by the stock pusher
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#23 Lamp3345

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:57 AM

(Delete) double post

Edited by Lamp3345, 11 January 2018 - 10:19 PM.

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#24 Lamp3345

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:28 AM

New idea same mage concept as yours or mine but add a half length dart spacer with a magnet on the end and another on the pusher when the Dart gets to the pusher to the auto extens the stock pusher and feds the next set to solve the Meg changing problem keep the dart retainer and when you pull the mag that pulls the extra length dart with it
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#25 Elithenerficorn

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 03:39 PM

Lamp I understand what your saying, and to people who cant visualize it, take a magazine, load two halfdarts in it end to end, put it in a flywheel blaster, and fire it. Take the clip out, and notice where the other half dart is, now imagine an entire magazine like that, that feeds sorta like the Artemis

Edited by Elithenerficorn, 01 March 2018 - 03:40 PM.

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