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Long barrel?


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#1 Xhosant

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 09:24 PM

So I gotta ask, is there merit to a long barrel on a nerf gun? I mean, a regular gun (such as a loser* rifle) exploits the long barrel to add spin to the bullet and guide its initial trajectory tightly. Would the same happen with a nerf gun, or would the bullet's friction with the barrel ruin its speed, making the gains moot or worse? And how would one even go about making the nerf barrel give spin?

 

*this bit is supposed to be the word referring to those guys that hit from really far with a huge-caliber bullet, why does the editor shift it to loser?


Edited by Xhosant, 01 July 2017 - 09:49 PM.

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#2 mykeypowell

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 09:53 PM

for one its called a dart not a bullet and most gun physics don't really apply to nerf.

Also the dart does lose range and volocity.

.


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#3 Xhosant

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 10:07 PM

Sorry, complete newb here :P

So no long barrels?

((Also, I seem to have come at a bad time, much of the modding repository is dysfunctional because Photobucket))


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#4 Meaker VI

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 11:23 PM

So I gotta ask, is there merit to a long barrel on a nerf gun?


Stock longbarrels (longshot, long-range kit, rayvan, etc.) can do absolutely nothing but hurt performance. Aftermarket & homemade long tight fitting barrels (brass, sleeper/angel breeches, worker/artifact breech kits, etc.) usually provide a significant boost to performance. This is because all stock blasters only have a short real barrel, usually right around the length fo the dart at ~3", despite also having different plunger volumes. Adding a full breech and long barrel to e.g. a Longshot will instantly boost performance because you can use all that extra plunger volume to propel your dart - volume that was just vented uselessly stock.

 

Many stock springer blasters benefit from longer barrels - I've got a Tech Target with 5" of CPVC and no other mods that'll hit 80' no problem. Not an exhaustive list, but Longshots, Retaliators, Nightfinders, BBB's, Crossbows, and numerous others benefit from long barrels.

 

No flywheel blaster benefits from a barrel much longer than the cage.

 

Pneumatic blasters sometimes need longer barrels to utilize lower pressure/high volume setups - HAMPS likewise need longer barrels. Othertimes they're just like springers except with way more power.

 

Stringers/direct fire blasters don't have barrels in the traditional sense, they're really more like crossbows.
 

...And how would one even go about making the nerf barrel give spin?

 
See the SCAR Barrel (IIRC, a knock-off of JSPB/3dBBQ's barrel but maybe he came second). Jury is out on whether it works or not, but it's sounding legit. Be advised that it sounds, to me, that spin is not needed for the traditional reasons. I think - from reading up on it and from years of reading smart people say it isn't needed - that it works not by spinning the dart; but that in spinning the dart it causes the pressure behind the dart to be equalized and the trajectory gains consistency. That's the theory that makes sense to me anyway.
 

(such as a loser* rifle)...*this bit is supposed to be the word referring to those guys that hit from really far with a huge-caliber bullet, why does the editor shift it to loser?

That's one of our special filters. It pops up from time to time to emphasize - there is no sniping in nerf. At least, not now or without special rules for losers.

 

The reason is that, assuming all players have access to the same darts and are allowed the same maximum FPS (thus, the same maximum muzzle-energy), having a traditional single-action "loser rifle" puts you at a disadvantage against me with my full-auto +/-60 dart coil-mag  mark-12 prototype: I can drop 60 rounds on you while you're fiddling with your bolt-action. Since it usually takes a few shots to get each hit just because of the nature of darts, you'll be out and I'll be hosing down your teamates.


Edited by Meaker VI, 01 July 2017 - 11:25 PM.

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#5 mykeypowell

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:00 AM

Stock longbarrels (longshot, long-range kit, rayvan, etc.) can do absolutely nothing but hurt performance. Aftermarket & homemade long tight fitting barrels (brass, sleeper/angel breeches, worker/artifact breech kits, etc.) usually provide a significant boost to performance. This is because all stock blasters only have a short real barrel, usually right around the length fo the dart at ~3", despite also having different plunger volumes. Adding a full breech and long barrel to e.g. a Longshot will instantly boost performance because you can use all that extra plunger volume to propel your dart - volume that was just vented uselessly stock.

 

Many stock springer blasters benefit from longer barrels - I've got a Tech Target with 5" of CPVC and no other mods that'll hit 80' no problem. Not an exhaustive list, but Longshots, Retaliators, Nightfinders, BBB's, Crossbows, and numerous others benefit from long barrels.

 

No flywheel blaster benefits from a barrel much longer than the cage.

 

Pneumatic blasters sometimes need longer barrels to utilize lower pressure/high volume setups - HAMPS likewise need longer barrels. Othertimes they're just like springers except with way more power.

 

Stringers/direct fire blasters don't have barrels in the traditional sense, they're really more like crossbows.
 

 
See the SCAR Barrel (IIRC, a knock-off of JSPB/3dBBQ's barrel but maybe he came second). Jury is out on whether it works or not, but it's sounding legit. Be advised that it sounds, to me, that spin is not needed for the traditional reasons. I think - from reading up on it and from years of reading smart people say it isn't needed - that it works not by spinning the dart; but that in spinning the dart it causes the pressure behind the dart to be equalized and the trajectory gains consistency. That's the theory that makes sense to me anyway.
 

That's one of our special filters. It pops up from time to time to emphasize - there is no sniping in nerf. At least, not now or without special rules for losers.

 

The reason is that, assuming all players have access to the same darts and are allowed the same maximum FPS (thus, the same maximum muzzle-energy), having a traditional single-action "loser rifle" puts you at a disadvantage against me with my full-auto +/-60 dart coil-mag  mark-12 prototype: I can drop 60 rounds on you while you're fiddling with your bolt-action. Since it usually takes a few shots to get each hit just because of the nature of darts, you'll be out and I'll be hosing down your teamates.

He's right its very good explanation.


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#6 Xhosant

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:02 AM

Thanks! Sounds like oodles of usefulness!

My only issue is, I don't know enough about terminology to understand everything :P is there a glossary thread somewhere?
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#7 Meaker VI

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:35 AM

Thanks! Sounds like oodles of usefulness!

My only issue is, I don't know enough about terminology to understand everything :P is there a glossary thread somewhere?


Yep, here. I'm not sure whether it's very cohesive though. What didn't come across?
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#8 Xhosant

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:36 PM

Finally, stupid newbie post filter slowing us down.

Terms I couldn't find:
 

brass, sleeper/angel breeches, worker/artifact breech kits, etc. (and any kind of breech thing)
Pneumatic blasters
Stringers
direct fire blasters
 
What are all those?

Also read something about tuning barrel length to gun power/gas volume and so on. Where can I read on that?

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#9 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:06 PM

brass, sleeper/angel breeches, worker/artifact breech kits, etc. (and any kind of breech thing)

These are various ways of creating barrel breeches using brass tubing (which nests into itself nicely). Example: http://nerfhaven.com...pts-streamlines

 

 

Pneumatic blasters

Any blaster that uses pressurized air to propel a dart down a barrel. Which is to say: basically everything that isn't a flywheel blasters.

 

Stringers

I assume this is just a misspelling of "springers", which are blasters that use a spring to store energy.

 

direct fire blasters

I am not sure what this is a reference to.

 

 

 

To answer the OP's original question: barrels are as long as they need to be, depending on the working volume of the blaster's power source. More powerful blasters will generally require longer barrels to reach their full potential, but will also be quite powerful with short barrels (since most of the dart's acceleration happens in the first few inches). Any particular blaster will have an optimum barrel length that depends on the volume of air the power source displaces, how quickly it displaces that air, how much friction there is between the dart and the barrel, dead space, telescoping, tightening rings, etc. It's pretty easy to suss this out: just try a bunch of barrel lengths.

As others have mentioned: this only matters for blasters that use pnemuatic power sources. The concept of a "barrel" doesn't really apply to flywheel blasters.
 

why does the editor shift it to loser?

Because there are literally hundreds of first posts by new members asking about nerf losers. Nerf guns are as opposite of a loser rifle as it is possible to be while still being in the same conceptual category. The sooner you can disabused of the notion that you can make something like a loser rifles from a nerf gun, the better.


Edited by Daniel Beaver, 02 July 2017 - 11:09 PM.

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#10 Xhosant

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:15 PM

I assume this is just a misspelling of "springers", which are blasters that use a spring to store energy.

 

It's in the same sentence as springer, so it has to be something different, emphasized here:

 

 

Many stock springer blasters benefit from longer barrels - I've got a Tech Target with 5" of CPVC and no other mods that'll hit 80' no problem. Not an exhaustive list, but Longshots, Retaliators, Nightfinders, BBB's, Crossbows, and numerous others benefit from long barrels.

 

Stringers/direct fire blasters don't have barrels in the traditional sense, they're really more like crossbows.

 

 

 

 

Any particular blaster will have an optimum barrel length that depends on the volume of air the power source displaces, how quickly it displaces that air, how much friction there is between the dart and the barrel, dead space, telescoping, tightening rings, etc. It's pretty easy to suss this out: just try a bunch of barrel lengths

Any way to calculate that by math, even as an approximation, or is the only way trial-and-error?

 

 

 

brass, sleeper/angel breeches, worker/artifact breech kits, etc. (and any kind of breech thing)

Ok, I think I get what breeches is, can someone elaborate on their use and/or explain the difference between the types?


Edited by Xhosant, 02 July 2017 - 11:22 PM.

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#11 Meaker VI

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 11:30 PM

Any blaster that uses pressurized air to propel a dart down a barrel. Which is to say: basically everything that isn't a flywheel blasters.

 

I assume this is just a misspelling of "springers", which are blasters that use a spring to store energy.

 

I am not sure what this is a reference to.

 

Stumped DB! Wrong on all counts quoted.

 

In this context, pneumatics are stored air blasters (HPA/LPA - I've switched to referring them to pneumatics when possible), while springers are technically using pneumatic force to propel the dart the stored energy is a spring.

 

Stringers are blasters powered by a string, usually elastic but it could be actually just like a bow and arrow except with a dart. Direct fire are similar, something mechanically pushes the dart out - i.e. Vortex or old-school dart-guns that fire a rubber dart with a spring.

 

Also read something about tuning barrel length to gun power/gas volume and so on. Where can I read on that?

 

Start at 1:4 IIRC, not miffed to look for it but it's one of Boltsnipers posts. Alternatively, start long and cut shorter until you stop noticing gains.


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#12 Daniel Beaver

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 08:21 AM

In this context, pneumatics are stored air blasters (HPA/LPA - I've switched to referring them to pneumatics when possible), while springers are technically using pneumatic force to propel the dart the stored energy is a spring.

So we agree  ;)

 

I see now the reference to blasters where the darts directly contact a bow string from your earlier post - I wasn't sure what Xhosant was referring to.

 

 

Any way to calculate that by math, even as an approximation, or is the only way trial-and-error?

In principle you can calculate it, and a lot of effort has been expended on that. Trial and error will get you to the same result with less effort.

 

Ok, I think I get what breeches is, can someone elaborate on their use and/or explain the difference between the types?

Breeches are just a way of loading a dart by sliding open a cut-out. You can use them to single-load darts by hand, or you can hook them up to a magazine and then connect them to a priming mechanism, so that you prime and load the blaster in one motion. This used to be a pretty common mod for Longshots, but the concept has fallen by the wayside lately in favor of magazine-fed flywheel blasters. These are more straightforward to mod, more reliable, and sometimes have electronic auto-cycling.


Edited by Daniel Beaver, 03 July 2017 - 08:38 AM.

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#13 Xhosant

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:19 PM

I still have buckets of questions, but they're best reserved for a different thread.

Just to bring some closure, I found Boltsniper's math: http://nerfhaven.com...boltsniper_far/

 

They are just under the gif schematics, which brought a tear to my eye.


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